London buses now accept contactless bank cards!

sitstill · 03-01-2013 1:54pm #1

I was in London just before Christmas and discovered that London buses now accepted contactless bank cards as payments - cards like the Visa Debit Card. You just press it against the scanner like an Oyster card and it charges you the same fare as an Oyster single -- good for tourists or as a once off if you forget your Oyster card.

Do we envisage this ever coming to Dublin?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/26416.aspx

longhalloween · 03-01-2013 1:55pm

sitstill wrote: »

Do we envisage this ever coming to Dublin?

Never.

bk · 03-01-2013 4:26pm

Do Irish Visa Debit Cards work with this system?

The above linked site says:

If you have a credit, debit or charge card that has been issued in the UK

Note the "issued in the UK" part.

Yes it is ironic that just as we rolled out our Oyster equivalent, Oyster have moved onto this new system.

Be well and win · 03-01-2013 4:40pm

Contactless cards would only be of use for once off individual journeys and will never replace things like season tickets or Travel 90 style tickets. My understanding is that Leapcard are well on their way to rolling out those this year

I'd also wonder if fare capping could be applied to a contactless bank card (similer to what is now in place on Luas) so it could end up costing passengers more.

goingnowhere · 03-01-2013 5:01pm

Fare capping is not possible at the moment

Its not well known but the entire original Oyster system has been ripped out and replaced, all the readers updated and so on, even the type of chip used in the Oyster cards was discretely changed

sitstill · 03-01-2013 5:01pm

bk wrote: »

Do Irish Visa Debit Cards work with this system?

The above linked site says:

Note the "issued in the UK" part.

Yes it is ironic that just as we rolled out our Oyster equivalent, Oyster have moved onto this new system.

I saw that but I used my Bank of Ireland Visa Debit and it worked fine!

Dravokivich · 03-01-2013 5:02pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Fare capping is not possible at the moment

Its not well known but the entire original Oyster system has been ripped out and replaced, all the readers updated and so on, even the type of chip used in the Oyster cards was discretely changed

With leap it is, on Luas.

sitstill · 03-01-2013 5:02pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

Fare capping is not possible at the moment

Its not well known but the entire original Oyster system has been ripped out and replaced, all the readers updated and so on, even the type of chip used in the Oyster cards was discretely changed

It doesn't have fare capping. I don't think the initiative is to replace Oyster but rather as an alternative for infrequent users who would normally pay with cash.

bk · 03-01-2013 5:06pm

Be well and win wrote: »

Contactless cards would only be of use for once off individual journeys and will never replace things like season tickets or Travel 90 style tickets. My understanding is that Leapcard are well on their way to rolling out those this year

Given that the vast majority of people using Dublin Bus pay by cash and now most of them have contactless ATM cards (AIB and BoI expect to complete full rollout to all customers by the end of the year), then it would seem like a very sensible way to get most people to move over to paying by card.

Of course this would only be worth doing if we switched over to a tag-on only, no driver interaction, flat fare system. e.g. €2 leap/contactless bank card €3 cash

It would also help ease moving over to this sort of system as people wouldn't need to get a leap card, just use their existing ATM cards.

Be well and win wrote: »

I'd also wonder if fare capping could be applied to a contactless bank card (similer to what is now in place on Luas) so it could end up costing passengers more.

Well it would not cost costumers more at the moment as fare capping doesn't exist on Dublin Bus yet.

Fare capping could technically be possible with debit cards, but there might be cost related issues with it.

Each transaction would be recorded by the bus, then at the end of the day, a tally of how much each debit card is used and a refund made to the debit card over the capped amount. The issue is that I'm not sure if the debit card companies would charge for such refunds and also refund their percentage. The NTA would likely have to come to an agreement with the banks.

However one way is to simply not allow fare capping with debit cards. Infrequent travel users would use their debit cards, getting the benefit of the price difference versus a cash fare. While more frequent users of public transport would get a leap card and receive the extra benefits of fare capping, monthly tickets, etc. Seems like a fair trade off.

The bigger issue I see is that it is only worth doing if you moved to a flat fare system on DB.

Also I don't see how debit cards could work on Luas and Dart with their tag-on/tag-off system, again unless they came to an agreement with the banks to allow them to refund on tag-off (or end of day).

However I do believe it would be in the banks interest to come to an agreement with the NTA on this. Such usage would greatly increase peoples awareness and thus usage of these bank cards, something the banks would love to do.

Lapin · 03-01-2013 5:08pm

sitstill wrote: »

Do we envisage this ever coming to Dublin?

Ha !

Thanks for that - I needed a laugh.

goingnowhere · 03-01-2013 5:08pm

The reason they can support it is because they have replaced the propietry Oyster system with a newer standard system which can cope with NFC bank cards.

In theory the hardware in Dublin is able to support this already.

Dravokivich · 03-01-2013 5:09pm

BK, would it still not need DB to upgrade their devices? Which didn't seem to be considered feasible for Leap, so doubt they would for debit cards.

starviewadams · 03-01-2013 5:28pm

Would DB's equipment not need to be connected to the internet to make this possible?isn't that the reason why you can't collect your online LEAP top ups on board the bus currently,so have to designate a shop or Luas TVM instead.

Dravokivich · 03-01-2013 5:37pm

AFAIK, The NFC on debit cards doesn't need authentication for low amounts.

AlekSmart · 03-01-2013 6:17pm

sitstill wrote: »

Do we envisage this ever coming to Dublin?

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/26416.aspx

No reason at all that it should'nt...except for the limitations of those in charge.

TfL benefits from having a very specific role,which is reflected in the resources allocated to it,and equally reflects the far better understanding of what running and maintaining a Capital City actually entails.

Dublin,on the other hand,is still managed by a coterie of,perhaps,well intentioned semi-professionals,few of whom have much in the way of specific interest in Public Transport.

Their competence in matters transport has been called into question on so many occasions that even those who take a benign view must hold their silence.

Thus we see the most visible of the NTA's policies is yet more Stickers and coloured stuff to stick on Taxi,s and,of course, the ever present Transport for Ireland logo on CIE vehicles.

However,browsing through this only serves to illustrate the difference between a CAPITAL City's administration and a Capital City's one.....

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/Item05-150312-TfL-Budget-2012-13.pdf

I'd be happy if somebody could find the time to make Leapcard more visible to those potential users who remain mystified..:o

bk · 03-01-2013 7:03pm

starviewadams wrote: »

Would DB's equipment not need to be connected to the internet to make this possible?isn't that the reason why you can't collect your online LEAP top ups on board the bus currently,so have to designate a shop or Luas TVM instead.

Very interesting video about the implementation of this service in London:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20715092

It does use the 3G network to make the payments. So yes the current DB ticket machines couldn't handle it. However I believe that before long these DB ticket machines will have to be replaced by more powerful, internet enabled models because of this and other issues.

BTW I don't believe the network needs to be present for every transaction, the system is designed to tolerate the network being down. So if the bus wonders into a black spot, it should be fine, the transactions would be processed as soon as the bus gets back into reception.

thomasj · 03-01-2013 7:46pm

bk wrote: »

Very interesting video about the implementation of this service in London:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20715092

It does use the 3G network to make the payments. So yes the current DB ticket machines couldn't handle it. However I believe that before long these DB ticket machines will have to be replaced by more powerful, internet enabled models because of this and other issues.

BTW I don't believe the network needs to be present for every transaction, the system is designed to tolerate the network being down. So if the bus wonders into a black spot, it should be fine, the transactions would be processed as soon as the bus gets back into reception.

I thought some of the contactless (ie mcdonalds) points in dublin use wifi technology. If all transport modes in dublin (and stations) get wifi. It would make sense. Problem is if wifi starts acting up I can see problem especially with people boarding buses.

Cookie_Monster · 03-01-2013 9:59pm

how long before you can swipe your wrist at these?
:pac:

Mr Simpson · 04-01-2013 1:47pm

Interestingly, they plan on putting the Daily cap in place for debit cards next year, so it is feasible.

sitstill · 04-01-2013 2:11pm

MarkMc wrote: »

Interestingly, they plan on putting the Daily cap in place for debit cards next year, so it is feasible.

Where did you see that?

Mr Simpson · 04-01-2013 2:14pm

sitstill wrote: »

Where did you see that?

It was said in the BBC video linked above

Mrs OBumble · 04-01-2013 2:32pm

bk wrote: »

Given that the vast majority of people using Dublin Bus pay by cash and now most of them have contactless ATM cards

Technically this is correct, most (as in "the majority") do.

But I'll wager that the proportion of the bus-catching population who do not have a bank account, and thus don't have an ATM card, is higher than you might expect.

God bless the credit union movement for making this possible. But even without them, in countries far more early-adopter-ish than Ireland, there are still plenty of folks who the banks won't touch with a barge pole.

Van.Bosch · 04-01-2013 2:58pm

This could only be used as a once off if you were a tourist or had forgotten your leap card. The banks now have mainly stopped doing free banking and now charge about 25c for each debit card transaction (AIB have waived the contactless fee until Nov 2013), so using this system would be costly.

London buses now accept contactless bank cards!

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