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Bus Éireann - January 13th

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  • 15-12-2012 11:34am
    #1
    The Skulls
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭


    So Bus Éireann are implementing a cost cutting plan in January with no agreement, do I need to get the by cycle out of the shed in case Dublin Bis follow suit or will this all be magically sorted before then? I remember when the last strike happened it seemed to not last that long, could it happen again?


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    #2
    The_Wrecker
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭The_Wrecker


    The Skulls wrote: »
    So Bus Éireann are implementing a cost cutting plan in January with no agreement, do I need to get the by cycle out of the shed in case Dublin Bis follow suit or will this all be magically sorted before then? I remember when the last strike happened it seemed to not last that long, could it happen again?

    DB staff were issued with new proposals on Thursday.


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    #3
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    The Skulls wrote: »
    So Bus Éireann are implementing a cost cutting plan in January with no agreement, do I need to get the by cycle out of the shed in case Dublin Bis follow suit or will this all be magically sorted before then? I remember when the last strike happened it seemed to not last that long, could it happen again?

    Don't know about magic,but I would'nt go rummaging in The Skulls shed this side of Christmas :)

    All this little piece of melodrama illustrates is how different the CIE "sister" Bus Companies have become in terms of HR and IR issues.

    I think it's fair to say that Dublin Bus has moved a great distance from it's former CIE days in terms of Staff Relations and how Industrial Relations issues are handled.

    Within Dublin Bus,in the past 5 years only one major contentious issue arose in Harristown,which although a very serious and deeply troubling one,did not result in any major industrial action or service disruption.

    Bus E on the other hand,appears to have a far more traditional CIE attitude to employee relations and the entire negotiotation process itself.

    This is not the first time that BE have rattled sabres in the recent past and when the clinking has died down they will most likely enter the same process that Dublin Bus is currently involved in.

    Just keep The Skulls tyres pumped up and you should be fine...;)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #4
    The Skulls
    Closed Accounts Posts: 108 ✭✭The Skulls


    Thanks Alec, I'll keep the tires inflated & the annual pass handy.


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    #5
    rx8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭rx8


    The Skulls wrote: »
    So Bus Éireann are implementing a cost cutting plan in January with no agreement, do I need to get the by cycle out of the shed in case Dublin Bis follow suit or will this all be magically sorted before then? I remember when the last strike happened it seemed to not last that long, could it happen again?

    Really,..... <snip> ..... why do you keep posting crap like this ???? Previous thread here, (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78735133)

    You should know more than the rest of us what is likely to happen with the DB negotiations, as you are privy to them. !!

    <snip> It's not the first time you have posted something like this, so maybe if you and your union actually done something about it, then me, the Wrecker, and Aleksmart might know where we stand.

    /rant over.


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    #6
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    13th of january is also mentioned in the irish times:
    Moves by Bus Éireann to introduce unilateral cuts to pay and terms of employment for staff could result in industrial action in transport companies across the wider CIÉ group, Siptu has said.

    The trade union is to ballot members at Bus Éireann for industrial action over the company’s plans. On Friday, Bus Éireann said it planned to implement a number of changes to the terms and conditions of staff from January 13th, 2013, as part of a financial recovery plan. The company said this move came as a result of a decision by trade unions to reject its request for a Labour Court hearing on its business recovery proposals.

    Among the measures to be implemented are a reduction of overtime rates from 1.5 times to 1.25 times; an increase in working week for clerical and executive staff from 36 hours to 39 hours; cuts in shift, premium and rota payments; the curtailing of annual leave entitlement by three days for three years (2013, 2014, 2015); and a scaling-back of a range of allowance and expense payments by 33.3 per cent.

    Bus Éireann said it had repeatedly stated since last June that failure to agree to its recovery plan would leave the company facing potential annual losses of €16 million. <snip - rest of article available on times website>
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1217/1224327924823.html

    sounds reasonably ominous to be fair.


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    #7
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,557 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think the point that needs to be made is that this is Bus Eireann only.

    The days of staff in other CIE companies taking sympathy action as was suggested above are thankfully long over, and hopefully won't return. In fact the last time some IE staff tried to picket Donnybrook they were told in no uncertain terms where to go as I recall by DB staff.

    DB is currently in negotiations with unions over its own cost reduction programme.


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    #8
    lil5
    Registered Users Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bus-eireann-passengers-face-chaos-as-drivers-vote-to-strike-3345825.html
    Bus Eireann passengers face chaos as drivers vote to strike

    BUS Eireann passengers may face chaos next weekend after over 1,000 staff voted overwhelmingly in favour of strike action.

    A total of 1,100 members of the National Bus and Railworkers Union have balloted by 92pc in favour of industrial action, with just 8pc against.

    Although the union is legally obliged to give a week’s notice of strike action, the union said staff would not accept proposed new cuts from next Sunday.

    ...

    Most of the rest of Bus Eireann’s over 2,500 staff are represented by SIPTU, which is also balloting members.


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    #9
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Laughable really, the irony is they say they are standing up for the terms and conditions, the actual fact is that should they strike they will just actually hurt their terms and conditions even more in the long run so it will just drive customers away even more so, which will not help anyone.

    I agree that there are tough times and that management need to take more of a share of the cuts, but the front line driving and admin staff need to know that they have to take a share too, and their basic pay is not being touched.

    Clerical and executive staff are said to be deeply unhappy that their working week is being extended from a 36 hour four day week to a 39 hour five day week. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for such people.


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    #10
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,996 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    devnull wrote: »
    Laughable really, the irony is they say they are standing up for the terms and conditions, the actual fact is that should they strike they will just actually hurt their terms and conditions even more in the long run so it will just drive customers away even more so, which will not help anyone.

    I agree that there are tough times and that management need to take more of a share of the cuts, but the front line driving and admin staff need to know that they have to take a share too, and their basic pay is not being touched.

    Clerical and executive staff are said to be deeply unhappy that their working week is being extended from a 36 hour four day week to a 39 hour five day week. I'm sorry but I have no sympathy for such people.


    I am sure that you'd be pretty miffed if you lost 3 leave days, had your working day extended and docked a lot of what is effectively staffs basic pay regardless if you consider it to be "essential" or not. A


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    #11
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Most people have lost some elements of their terms and conditions in the past few years though, in fact barely anyone I know has not lost something in some area since the recession started so it's not like it's only happening in Bus Eireann or any of the CIE companies as some people try and portray.

    Many of such people have had their hourly rate cut as well or have agreed to remove perks to keep hourly rates untouched as well. The fact is a strike will not solve anything, it will just drive customers away who have a choice and that will hit the company even more in the long run.

    I agree with the union that they say that management need to take more of a cut and to stop pushing everything on front line staff, they do have a point as far as that is, but at the same time the front line staff can't just bury their heads in the sand and refuse every single point.

    As I said earlier, the point about working three hours extra a week should not even be up for discussion, because of all of them, that is by far the most trivial if you ask me. If executives and admin staff are not prepared to work 39-40 hours a week then I'm sure there are plenty of people who would.

    Sure I'd be miffed about it, but if the company was losing money I'd be able to see that something would need to be done about it. Carrying on regardless is simply not an option, money needs to be saved and all staff need to realise this.

    I agree that there should be a smaller burden on those who are working in the front line and a higher burden on those in management, but everyone has to play their part.


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    #12
    Vahevala
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Vahevala


    Unfortunately in a recession we all have to take a cut. Personally I haven't had a pay increase in years, had my overtime rate cut to a figure that is less than my hourly rate, have lost countless benefits, costs me quite a bit in commuting but I realise that I am lucky to have the job. 

    If a company is losing this much money, everyone has to take a hit and play their part. 

    Striking will backfire, those who use them will find an alternative and may never use them again. These are tough times and noone is above being touched.


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    #13
    Hootanany
    Registered Users Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    I remember in the 80's when they went on strike the Army was called in,we were put on the back off Troop transporters I don't think we had to pay either. Wonder will this be brought out to counteract this.


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    #14
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    This is not correct.

    This has the potential for an all out strike by all Bus and Rail union people.

    Bout time the worker took control back from the rich man.

    No it hasnt, Dublin bus and Irish Rail already voted on their own cost saving measures . Irish rail one was passed not sure about dublin bus.
    NO strike on the cards by them.


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    #15
    rainbowdash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 878 ✭✭✭rainbowdash


    Hootanany wrote: »
    I remember in the 80's when they went on strike the Army was called in,we were put on the back off Troop transporters I don't think we had to pay either. Wonder will this be brought out to counteract this.

    I doubt it with modern health and safety etc.


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    #16
    The_Wrecker
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭The_Wrecker


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    No it hasnt, Dublin bus and Irish Rail already voted on their own cost saving measures . Irish rail one was passed not sure about dublin bus.
    NO strike on the cards by them.

    DB issued a new set of proposals recently, no movement yet.


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    #17
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 17,848 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    They should just sell it off, it makes no sense to have an inefficient state company. I cant imagine the public will care one way or the other if there is a strike.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #18
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,557 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    silverharp wrote: »
    They should just sell it off, it makes no sense to have an inefficient state company. I cant imagine the public will care one way or the other if there is a strike.

    I suspect the thousands of people who rely on BE every day will care.

    It is in no one's interests for there to be a strike, but frankly both sides need to wake up and smell the coffee and engage in a meaningful way. This process has been going on for months.


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    #19
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,473 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »
    Keep hearing on the headlines the CIE union spokesman saying bus drivers are on or just over the average industrial wage.
    (Irish economy thread)

    why they throw this out is beyond me, they are openly stating they are well paid for what is a reasonably low skill job. (no offence intended, but no high level skills or education or long term investment of time or effort involved) Anyone can get a licence and PSV cert relatively quickly, cheaply and easily and there are no barriers to entry apart from job availability. To drive a bus and be on the AIW is good going IMO. The WTD directive ensures no piss taking with unpaid overtime and decent company benefits to boot including:
    Benefits

    Benefits for all grades of staff include:

    Medical, Sick Pay and Pension Schemes
    Certain free and concessionary travel facilities
    A uniform for front line staff
    Training
    Study Scheme
    Staff parking in Depots

    If it's really about conditions being cut then stick to that, no need to add the above comments in and weaken your stance in the public's view


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    #20
    freezer502
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭freezer502


    I actually have sympathy for the workers of Bus Eireann.
    Bus Eireann are basically enforcing conditions on workers without any negotiation.

    Now while many may say that this is fine and just in the current climate, we need to remember that there is pay agreements in place that Bus Eireann have agreed to in the past.

    I had to laugh at the Spokesman from Bus Eireann when he argued that they needed 30 days notice of a strike from the union yet the company didnt have the courtesy to inform or negotiate with their workers. It sounds like Bus Eireann have decided to forget that employment rights even exist and have decided to go off on their own course, which in my opinion is a very dangerous route to go down.

    I cant see the sister companies getting involved but i can see major revolt from within Bus Eireann and to be honest who can blame them. Contracts and workers rights have to be negotiated by both parties. If there is no negotiation then the whole area of natural justice and fairness need to be called into question on Bus Eireanns side. We all know the company is losing money but you cant break employment agreements and expect to get away with it.

    If a company can just tear up your employment conditions, then we all are all screwed in the long run as every company will do the same citing losses as the reason


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    #21
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,557 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The talks have been ongoing since Q2 of last year!!!

    How can you say there's been no negotiations?


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    #22
    schemingbohemia
    Registered Users Posts: 5,606 ✭✭✭schemingbohemia


    freezer502 wrote: »
    I actually have sympathy for the workers of Bus Eireann.
    Bus Eireann are basically enforcing conditions on workers without any negotiation.

    Now while many may say that this is fine and just in the current climate, we need to remember that there is pay agreements in place that Bus Eireann have agreed to in the past.

    I had to laugh at the Spokesman from Bus Eireann when he argued that they needed 30 days notice of a strike from the union yet the company didnt have the courtesy to inform or negotiate with their workers. It sounds like Bus Eireann have decided to forget that employment rights even exist and have decided to go off on their own course, which in my opinion is a very dangerous route to go down.

    I cant see the sister companies getting involved but i can see major revolt from within Bus Eireann and to be honest who can blame them. Contracts and workers rights have to be negotiated by both parties. If there is no negotiation then the whole area of natural justice and fairness need to be called into question on Bus Eireanns side. We all know the company is losing money but you cant break employment agreements and expect to get away with it.

    If a company can just tear up your employment conditions, then we all are all screwed in the long run as every company will do the same citing losses as the reason

    Virtually every single company in the country has re-negotiated pay and conditions over the past 5 years. They aren't trying to tear up agreements, they're trying to make sure the company exists this time next year.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    The talks have been ongoing since Q2 of last year!!!

    How can you say there's been no negotiations?

    You can if you just swallow hook line and sinker what the Union have released.


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    #23
    freezer502
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭freezer502


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Virtually every single company in the country has re-negotiated pay and conditions over the past 5 years. They aren't trying to tear up agreements, they're trying to make sure the company exists this time next year.

    These have been renegotiated, i only have a problem if their is no negotiation which was stated by the union.


    You can if you just swallow hook line and sinker what the Union have released.

    If the union are lying then thats another story, but from the outside initially any it looks like BE are trying to change certain terms without engaging with employees.


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    #24
    freezer502
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭freezer502


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The talks have been ongoing since Q2 of last year!!!

    How can you say there's been no negotiations?

    thats what the union has said, if they are lying then fair enough there is nothing to argue here.....move along :D


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    #25
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    freezer502 wrote: »
    If the union are lying then thats another story, but from the outside initially any it looks like BE are trying to change certain terms without engaging with employees.

    Doesn't look that way to me, however certain people on this and other forums and those in the union are trying to give that impression

    As schemingbohemia has said, this is not unique to Bus Eireann, most employees have faced condition and/or pay cuts in this country.

    The fact is the company needs changes to survive in the future, the government (rightly) is no longer handing out blank cheques.


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    #26
    Niles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭Niles


    silverharp wrote: »
    I cant imagine the public will care one way or the other if there is a strike.

    More than you think... I use it to get to work everyday as do many others. There is a private operator on my route but I'm not convinced they'll be able to cope with the displaced BÉ contingent if a strike goes ahead.

    It'll be even worse for those on routes served only by BÉ.


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