Severity of Greek Austerity Measures

Monty Burnz · 29-06-2012 11:54pm

Going Forward wrote: »

This is very simple.
The WORLD has not got a hope in hell of paying back the debt it has racked up.

You have some sort of analysis to back this up, I presume?

Going Forward wrote: »

What you term the "stuff" that Greece cannot pay for, essential medicine, food, electricity, let them live without, to punish and teach them a little lesson, is that right?

It's not a case of them being punished though, is it? I can't afford a Ferrari - am I being punished?

If they put themselves in a position where they can't afford things entirely through their own actions as a sovereign state, who exactly is punishing them?

Going Forward wrote: »

This cruel socio political experiment is a futile effort to correct professionally mismanaged pension funds and investments.

This makes no sense I'm afraid - 'to correct professionally mismanaged pension funds'?

What does that even mean?

I think you are confusing economic gravity with some sort of ideological mission. If you can't afford it, you can't have it. That's how it has always worked. What makes you think it suddenly changed?

Going Forward wrote: »

You may well have an interest in the Greek crisis, but its obviously purely academic.

How has your transfer of all your worldly wealth to Greek charities gone? You must have done it faster than I thought was possible, unless you are indulging in further hypocrisy?

Going Forward · 01-07-2012 12:26am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You have some sort of analysis to back this up, I presume?

It's not a case of them being punished though, is it? I can't afford a Ferrari - am I being punished? If they put themselves in a position where they can't afford things entirely through their own actions as a sovereign state, who exactly is punishing them?

This makes no sense I'm afraid - 'to correct professionally mismanaged pension funds'? What does that even mean?

I think you are confusing economic gravity with some sort of ideological mission. If you can't afford it, you can't have it. That's how it has always worked. What makes you think it suddenly changed?

How has your transfer of all your worldly wealth to Greek charities gone? You must have done it faster than I thought was possible, unless you are indulging in further hypocrisy?

Am I correct in reaching the conclusion that you believe that the Greeks, and presumably other financial incompetents such as beggars on the street are a waste of space due to their misfortune/foolishness?

I would hope that some sort of basic standard of living for the average person (provision of essential healthcare, food, electricity) would be provided for, as a humanitarian condition of any loan agreement, austerity or no austerity.

BTW, what hypocrisy of mine are you referring to?

Monty Burnz · 01-07-2012 1:49am

Going Forward wrote: »

Am I correct in reaching the conclusion that you believe that the Greeks, and presumably other financial incompetents such as beggars on the street are a waste of space due to their misfortune/foolishness?

Would that help you to assemble a straw man of some sort?

Going Forward wrote: »

I would hope that some sort of basic standard of living for the average person (provision of essential healthcare, food, electricity) would be provided for, as a humanitarian condition of any loan agreement, austerity or no austerity.

I certainly hope and expect that they can afford that once they start paying their taxes.

Going Forward wrote: »

BTW, what hypocrisy of mine are you referring to?

That would be the hypocrisy of lecturing others about being indifferent to the problems of the Greek people without doing anything practical to relieve them. I'm sure there are plenty of charities you can donate to if you feel the need to lecture down to us from the high moral ground.

Going Forward · 03-07-2012 8:50pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Would that help you to assemble a straw man of some sort?

The question remains open for you to answer.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I certainly hope and expect that they can afford that once they start paying their taxes.

Respect for human rights and dignity is a core value of the EU. Basic social protection is required in Greece.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

That would be the hypocrisy of lecturing others about being indifferent to the problems of the Greek people without doing anything practical to relieve them. I'm sure there are plenty of charities you can donate to if you feel the need to lecture down to us from the high moral ground.

There is nothing hypocritical about condemning cruel treatment.

And I would remind you that you have no knowledge of anyone else's charitable actions.

Monty Burnz · 03-07-2012 9:41pm

Going Forward wrote: »

The question remains open for you to answer.

The Greeks are not a waste of space. I genuinely didn't think that needed answering...

Respect for human rights and dignity is a core value of the EU. Basic social protection is required in Greece.

Yes, basic social protection. Food, shelter. There's plenty of money in Greece to pay for food and shelter for all if they bothered to collect and pay their taxes.

There is nothing hypocritical about condemning cruel treatment.

And I would remind you that you have no knowledge of anyone else's charitable actions.

It's a little hypocritical to come here and tell us how heartless we all are if you have done exactly zero more than anyone else to fix it.

poeticseraphim · 04-07-2012 12:37am

You know we go on about the apathy of the banking industry and the lack of social responsibility that is apparrant yet this society espouses those values too. How has a Greek child or a child of any nation done anything to contribute. I am not trying to simplify the issue. However if your reaction to seeing a human being suffer is not only walk on but attack them further there is little hope for the species.

It's like stealing trousers from a homeless person.

The people suffering are more than likely single parents those from a poor socio economic class , these people did not benefit from the corruption within their society economically.

If this is the attitude of the middle and ruling classes it is no wonder the working classes are becoming so radicalized. It can only lead to a generation of very angry children indoctrined by their parents to show the same stone faced lack of empathy to those they view as tyrannical less than human and in power over them. It is wealthy Greeks who evade tax and those who suffer now supported tax funded services for them to enjoy.

It is interesting to hear Irish espouse the value of paying taxes considering some of the scandals here with Mr Wallace and his kind. We cannot seem to collect our own taxes.

This is a virtueless society and a society without altruism cannot survive.

By the way if anyone has a link to some Greek NGO's that deal with children or welfare etc please do post them or pm me them if it is not allowed i have been trying to find some.

I would find a wider debate on charity interesting ...i was looking at a list of countries detailing those who give least and most to charity in the world.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdHEtRUY3dllDZEI4RnFtR1A1NmpZUmc&hl=en&rm=full#gid=0

Germany was one of the least generous. Malta i think was the most generous Ireland was also amongst the most generous.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 12:44am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

You know we go on about the apathy of the banking industry and the lack of social responsibility that is apparrant yet this society espouses those values too. How has a Greek child or a child of any nation done anything to contribute. I am not trying to simplify the issue. However if your reaction to seeing a human being suffer is not only walk on but attack them further there is little hope for the species.

It's like stealing trousers from a homeless person.

The people suffering are more than likely single parents those from a poor socio economic class , these people did not benefit from the corruption within their society economically.

If this is the attitude of the middle and ruling classes it is no wonder the working classes are becoming so radicalized. It can only lead to a generation of very angry children indoctrined by their parents to show the same stone faced lack of empathy to those they view as tyrannical less than human and in power over them. It is wealthy Greeks who evade tax and those who suffer now supported tax funded services for them to enjoy.

It is interesting to hear Irish espouse the value of paying taxes considering some of the scandals here with Mr Wallace and his kind. We cannot seem to collect our own taxes.

This is a virtueless society and a society without altruism cannot survive.

By the way if anyone has a link to some Greek NGO's that deal with children or welfare etc please do post them or pm me them if it is not allowed i have been trying to find some.

Once more, just one more time, I'll post the Vanity Fair article written about Greece a couple of years ago. It's long, but it's a great read and it might give you some decent insights before you try to cast this as some sort of class war nonsense.

That was the good news. The long-term picture was far bleaker. In addition to its roughly $400 billion (and growing) of outstanding government debt, the Greek number crunchers had just figured out that their government owed another $800 billion or more in pensions. Add it all up and you got about $1.2 trillion, or more than a quarter-million dollars for every working Greek. Against $1.2 trillion in debts, a $145 billion bailout was clearly more of a gesture than a solution. And those were just the official numbers; the truth is surely worse. “Our people went in and couldn’t believe what they found,” a senior I.M.F. official told me, not long after he’d returned from the I.M.F.’s first Greek mission. “The way they were keeping track of their finances—they knew how much they had agreed to spend, but no one was keeping track of what he had actually spent. It wasn’t even what you would call an emerging economy. It was a Third World country.”

As it turned out, what the Greeks wanted to do, once the lights went out and they were alone in the dark with a pile of borrowed money, was turn their government into a piñata stuffed with fantastic sums and give as many citizens as possible a whack at it. In just the past decade the wage bill of the Greek public sector has doubled, in real terms—and that number doesn’t take into account the bribes collected by public officials. The average government job pays almost three times the average private-sector job. The national railroad has annual revenues of 100 million euros against an annual wage bill of 400 million, plus 300 million euros in other expenses. The average state railroad employee earns 65,000 euros a year. Twenty years ago a successful businessman turned minister of finance named Stefanos Manos pointed out that it would be cheaper to put all Greece’s rail passengers into taxicabs: it’s still true. “We have a railroad company which is bankrupt beyond comprehension,” Manos put it to me. “And yet there isn’t a single private company in Greece with that kind of average pay.” The Greek public-school system is the site of breathtaking inefficiency: one of the lowest-ranked systems in Europe, it nonetheless employs four times as many teachers per pupil as the highest-ranked, Finland’s. Greeks who send their children to public schools simply assume that they will need to hire private tutors to make sure they actually learn something. There are three government-owned defense companies: together they have billions of euros in debts, and mounting losses. The retirement age for Greek jobs classified as “arduous” is as early as 55 for men and 50 for women. As this is also the moment when the state begins to shovel out generous pensions, more than 600 Greek professions somehow managed to get themselves classified as arduous: hairdressers, radio announcers, waiters, musicians, and on and on and on. The Greek public health-care system spends far more on supplies than the European average—and it is not uncommon, several Greeks tell me, to see nurses and doctors leaving the job with their arms filled with paper towels and diapers and whatever else they can plunder from the supply closets.

Where waste ends and theft begins almost doesn’t matter; the one masks and thus enables the other. It’s simply assumed, for instance, that anyone who is working for the government is meant to be bribed. People who go to public health clinics assume they will need to bribe doctors to actually take care of them. Government ministers who have spent their lives in public service emerge from office able to afford multi-million-dollar mansions and two or three country homes.

Oddly enough, the financiers in Greece remain more or less beyond reproach. They never ceased to be anything but sleepy old commercial bankers. Virtually alone among Europe’s bankers, they did not buy U.S. subprime-backed bonds, or leverage themselves to the hilt, or pay themselves huge sums of money. The biggest problem the banks had was that they had lent roughly 30 billion euros to the Greek government—where it was stolen or squandered. In Greece the banks didn’t sink the country. The country sank the banks.

...and it continues...

poeticseraphim · 04-07-2012 1:36am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Once more, just one more time, I'll post the Vanity Fair article written about Greece a couple of years ago. It's long, but it's a great read and it might give you some decent insights before you try to cast this as some sort of class war nonsense.

...and it continues...

Again how is a five year old Greek child fainting in school from malnutrition to be blamed for the behavouir of the society they had the misfortune to be born into?
http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2012/04/06/visualizza_new.html_162356544.html
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/06/15/crete-child-faints-due-to-malnutrition-mother-steals-milk-for-her-children/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/mar/13/greece-breadline-hungry-children-pe
http://greece.greekreporter.com/tag/sos-eliza/

Seriously are you that angry with them ? Well enjoying revenge then?? What is wrong with you?

Here is a charity trying to help that i donate to... and there take
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/charity-news/archive/2012/01/greek-crisis-forces-families-to-abandon-children
And incase anyone wants to help...

04-07-2012 3:45am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Again how is a five year old Greek child fainting in school from malnutrition to be blamed for the behavouir of the society they had the misfortune to be born into?
http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2012/04/06/visualizza_new.html_162356544.html
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/06/15/crete-child-faints-due-to-malnutrition-mother-steals-milk-for-her-children/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/mar/13/greece-breadline-hungry-children-pe
http://greece.greekreporter.com/tag/sos-eliza/

Seriously are you that angry with them ? Well enjoying revenge then?? What is wrong with you?

Here is a charity trying to help that i donate to... and there take
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/charity-news/archive/2012/01/greek-crisis-forces-families-to-abandon-children
And incase anyone wants to help...

Didn't we have someone collapse due to malnutrition in a school in Cork?

I've yet to see how austerity is the cause of anyone starving. If train drivers can earn 60k pa. in Greece, then perhaps the severe poverty is caused by economic mismanagement and corrupting governmental and non-governmental interference, rather than a lack of resources available to the state itself during this period of 'austerity'.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 9:02am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Again how is a five year old Greek child fainting in school from malnutrition to be blamed for the behavouir of the society they had the misfortune to be born into?
http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2012/04/06/visualizza_new.html_162356544.html
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/06/15/crete-child-faints-due-to-malnutrition-mother-steals-milk-for-her-children/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085163/Children-dumped-streets-Greek-parents-afford-them.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2012/mar/13/greece-breadline-hungry-children-pe
http://greece.greekreporter.com/tag/sos-eliza/

Seriously are you that angry with them ? Well enjoying revenge then?? What is wrong with you?

Here is a charity trying to help that i donate to... and there take
http://www.soschildrensvillages.org.uk/charity-news/archive/2012/01/greek-crisis-forces-families-to-abandon-children
And incase anyone wants to help...

Why does a 5 year old child fainting in Greece command more of your attention than thousands of 5 year olds dropping dead in Africa, South America and Asia?

And why do you get so much pleasure out of it? Does if make you feel good, give you a thrill or something, when they die? What kind of person are you that could take pleasure from their deaths??

K-9 · 04-07-2012 9:28am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Seriously are you that angry with them ? Well enjoying revenge then?? What is wrong with you?

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Why does a 5 year old child fainting in Greece command more of your attention than thousands of 5 year olds dropping dead in Africa, South America and Asia?

And why do you get so much pleasure out of it? Does if make you feel good, give you a thrill or something, when they die? What kind of person are you that could take pleasure from their deaths??

Seriously, cut it out please.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 9:34am

Hopefully we can now resume talking about what people are actually saying, rather than just making stuff up.

poeticseraphim · 04-07-2012 9:53pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Didn't we have someone collapse due to malnutrition in a school in Cork?

I've yet to see how austerity is the cause of anyone starving. If train drivers can earn 60k pa. in Greece, then perhaps the severe poverty is caused by economic mismanagement and corrupting governmental and non-governmental interference, rather than a lack of resources available to the state itself during this period of 'austerity'.

Does it matter if austerity is the cause? They are children?

Only truly deviant people blame the helpless it's a way of excusing your self preservation and indulgence.

That charity gives to children around the world Ireland included you can choose whichever city you choose.....i would tell you what i thought of but i would get banned.

Are you suggesting i don't care about the plight of vulnerable people in Ireland because i care about the vulnerable elsewhere?

There is no moral basis to your position other than begrudgery, resentment and bitterness.

I would not presume to know if you enage if philanthropy at home or elsewhere.....but judging on what you have demonstrated here i would doubt it is a part of your life at all. Perhaps you are your own charity case maybe in fact you need your own help.

You are a misanthropist......yours is a sinister world view..it must be awful to live in a world that disgusts you so much.

Your position is if society makes mistakes as a whole..even the most innocent within it deserve no help...and if so ...you are not responsible.

That 'myself' mentality is exactly what has ruined this world.

EVERYONE DESERVES HELP AND IT IS EVERYONE'S DUTY AS A FELLOW HUMAN TO HELP

Infact the rights of the child and human rights are fundamental to every western civilization and democracy. I hold those rights to beself evident. Human life is valuable in itself. It does not lose it's value simply because it made mistakes....we feed prisoners and acknowledge their rights.

That bus driver earning a wage which i have no doubt has been manipulated by TV propaganda is no worse than you...you turn your eye also on the less fortunate so log as you are ok.

You are a weak minded minion for the greedy corporate bankers who instigated this entire global crisis.

THE GREEK BUS DRIVER???? YOU WATCH TOO MUCH TRASHY TV

TRY WORKING IN THE GREEK PRIVATE SECTOR ON 700 EURO A MONTH IN A CITY AS EXPENISVE AS LONDON 10-11 hours a day

Public school teachers earn 600 EURO a month in a city as expensive as london.
The Greeks in the private sector work longer hours than the Germans work did you know that?

Forget about the decency of the Greeks what about YOURS?
You are suggesting they don't deserve help because they lack virtue. And you are applying this to Greeks in general to justify not helping any.To suggest that lack of virtues is an inherently Greek trait is a form of racism.

The world says the same about the Irish...and the poor and any group of people they need to justify their discrimmination and dehumanising of.I would thoroughly lament the lack of honor in this society. What about aportioning blame to those who instigated this whole mess? Or identifying it as a failure of society in general.

There i have said it ...i apologise to mods if this goes beyond good manners but some of this attitude and rhetoric is FAR to close to a mixture of misanthropy and dicrimmination. AND IT SHOULD BE OPPOSED

We are not superior to anyone. Greeks, Africans and Irish are equally entitled to our compassion and respect. If you say Greeks or Africans or Irish as a whole nation are not or less so that is racist to blacken a whole country.

I hate this weak minded propaganda that aportions blame on the basis of ethnicity. Every country has screwed up.

Monty Burns you are aptly named.......I am not taking the moral high ground you are surrendering.

I suspect TROLL.....nevermind i am done with this ...if people do want to check out that charity you can give to children anywhere in the world once off or regularly..no pressure though i know for some it is tougher.

I do consider myself lucky and truly fortunate to be able to be charitable, not everyone can, through no fault of their own i know.

It is fortunate to be in a position to give not a burden.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 9:59pm

Poeticseraphim, you are labouring under the impression that someone other than Greece is imposing poverty on them. They have imposed it on themselves. They are less deserving of sympathy than many other poorer countries that did not have all the advantages that Greece has. I don't expect anyone takes any pleasure out of the disaster they created for themselves, but I certainly don't feel any culpability either.

poeticseraphim · 04-07-2012 10:33pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Poeticseraphim, you are labouring under the impression that someone other than Greece is imposing poverty on them. They have imposed it on themselves. They are less deserving of sympathy than many other poorer countries that did not have all the advantages that Greece has. I don't expect anyone takes any pleasure out of the disaster they created for themselves, but I certainly don't feel any culpability either.

You are under the impression that it would matter to me. You re also under the impression that all of Greece is imposing poverty on all of Greece and it is blaming very Greekfor the actions of some. And paintin all greeks with those characteristics. It is logically flawed.

Many third world countries are held hostage by the rich in their own countries. Corruption is widespread in poverty stricken areas.

I don't divide charitibale cases in terms of deserving and non deserving. It is dangerous and grotesque. It is not some kind of competition.

It is a false dichotomy of innocent victims and guilty victims. They are bth suffering they both should be helped it is not as if not helping one is going to help the other.

Not all in Greece did this ..not all Greeks ...you are denying help to all...or even the right to help ....

Not ALL Irish people should suffer because of what went on here.

This is part of the reason we need to have trials in court for those that instigated this crisis because people are aportioning inapropriate levels of guilt indiscriminately. Instead of actually finding those guilty parties bankers officals politicians in Greece here Britain etc....we are allowing Kids and EVERYONE to take their blame...

Innocent people in Greece do not deserve that guilt or shame.....they DO deserve help..

I never said you were culpable....but to be honest if you were to use the same logic in Ireland..we have corruption here by the same standard you would blame everyone here and by everyone you would include yourself.

If all Greeks are to blame for poverty in Greece then are not all people to blamefor the Global crisis?? And then do not all people havea duty to help?

And it is a Global crisis....if it were the Greek people..well why is it in Spain Ireland etc??

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 10:35pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Poeticseraphim, you are labouring under the impression that someone other than Greece is imposing poverty on them. They have imposed it on themselves. They are less deserving of sympathy than many other poorer countries that did not have all the advantages that Greece has. I don't expect anyone takes any pleasure out of the disaster they created for themselves, but I certainly don't feel any culpability either.

Do you seriously think every person in Greece, young and old, is responsible for the mess their country is in (even those since born into it; somehow inheriting their parents culpability), and think none of them deserve any sympathy? (and implicitly deserve whatever they get?)

Not sure how interested I am in picking apart the clear logical fallacies underlying such thinking; right now at least, am curious if I really am interpreting that right, and if that really is your openly stated view.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 10:43pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Do you seriously think every person in Greece, young and old, is responsible for the mess their country is in (even those since born into it; somehow inheriting their parents culpability), and think none of them deserve any sympathy? (and implicitly deserve whatever they get?)

Please read what I post before jumping in with accusations.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

They have my sympathy, but they used their sovereignty to mismanage themselves into a disaster.

Perhaps you might explain why charity should be directed to a wealthy European country when there are places on earth where 'austerity Greece' would appear to be a paradise? Of course if you want to send them cash, away you go and more power to you. Some of us feel that there are more deserving cases out there.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Not sure how interested I am in picking apart the clear logical fallacies underlying such thinking; right now at least, am curious if I really am interpreting that right, and if that really is your openly stated view.

Ah go on, give it a try.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 10:46pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Please read what I post before jumping in with accusations.

I asked a question, I didn't accuse; is the way your views are presented in my question, an accurate interpretation?

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 10:48pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

I asked a question, I didn't accuse; is the way your views are presented in my question, an accurate interpretation?

If you are asking 'are the Greek people responsible for the state Greece is in', the answer is undoubtedly yes.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 10:52pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If you are asking 'are the Greek people responsible for the state Greece is in', the answer is undoubtedly yes.

All of the Greek people? Young and old (including those too young to vote); those that were born since the crisis?

This isn't just hair splitting now; you do seem to be generalizing on to all the people in Greece, and it can quickly be shown that many Greek people had no ability to influence events, and did not bring about conditions that caused the crisis either.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 10:58pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

All of the Greek people? Young and old (including those too young to vote); those that were born since the crisis?

This isn't just hair splitting now; you do seem to be generalizing on to all the people in Greece, and it can quickly be shown that many Greek people had no ability to influence events, and did not bring about conditions that caused the crisis either.

I am speaking of 'the Greeks'. We speak about 'the Germans' in WW2 even though not all of them were toting rifles or butchering Jews. It's hardly a point worth making that there are children and/or foetuses that did not steer Greece into catastrophe. They have my sympathy for the disaster their parents and grandparents created - and I even feel sympathy for the adults. But I still fail to see why we are expected to direct our charitable efforts away from those peoples who are in far worse situations through no fault of their own.

oscarBravo · 04-07-2012 11:00pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

All of the Greek people? Young and old (including those too young to vote); those that were born since the crisis?

This isn't just hair splitting now; you do seem to be generalizing on to all the people in Greece, and it can quickly be shown that many Greek people had no ability to influence events, and did not bring about conditions that caused the crisis either.

One of the many tragedies of democracy is that the electorate share collegiate responsibility for the actions of the elected government.

If you can think of a way that only those who are actually responsible for Greece's problems (including those who voted for the governments who so shockingly mismanaged the economy) are forced to bear the burden of actually paying the bills, I'd be interested to hear it.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 11:09pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am speaking of 'the Greeks'. We speak about 'the Germans' in WW2 even though not all of them were toting rifles or butchering Jews. It's hardly a point worth making that there are children and/or foetuses that did not steer Greece into catastrophe. They have my sympathy for the disaster their parents and grandparents created - and I even feel sympathy for the adults. But I still fail to see why we are expected to direct our charitable efforts away from those peoples who are in far worse situations through no fault of their own.

Okey so not all Greeks are responsible for the crisis their country is in, therefore saying "the Greeks are responsible" is false, because that is generalizing to all of the people in Greece.

More so, it can't be said that all Greek adults are responsible for the mess their country is in, because there is no guarantee that who they voted for would have made a difference, and not all of them voted for the parties that allowed the conditions which helped cause the crisis.

So again, another part of the fallacy; basically, you can't generalize the blame for their crisis, onto all (or even most) of the people in Greece; there is no such thing as responsibility shared by an entire nation like that.

Also, whether a person deserves sympathy (and how much), does not depend upon the relative conditions of the country that person is in, or whether or not 'some' people in that country are responsible for the mess it is in.

A person going through a hard time deserves sympathy no matter if there's someone worse off out there or not.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 11:11pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

One of the many tragedies of democracy is that the electorate share collegiate responsibility for the actions of the elected government.

If you can think of a way that only those who are actually responsible for Greece's problems (including those who voted for the governments who so shockingly mismanaged the economy) are forced to bear the burden of actually paying the bills, I'd be interested to hear it.

The whole population bears the burden of the responsibility yes, as in, has to deal with the results of any mismanagement, but the whole electorate is not responsible for the mismanagement happening in the first place.

EDIT: My issue is not that the consequences should be doled out selectively based on who is responsible for causing the crisis, just that it can't be said that everyone in the country deserves less sympathy because of mismanagement; that would be fallacious as not everyone is responsible for that mismanagement, and most likely had no means to influence it.

oscarBravo · 04-07-2012 11:15pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

The whole population bears the burden of the responsibility yes, as in, has to deal with the results of any mismanagement, but the whole electorate is not responsible for the mismanagement happening in the first place.

I didn't vote for Fianna Fáil. That doesn't mean I don't get to live with the results of their fiscal policies.

It doesn't matter who's to blame on an individual basis. The Greek people need to start paying their bills. That's just how it is. Hand-wringing won't change that fact.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 11:18pm

Right but as I clarified in the edit to my last post, it is not right to say anyone in Greece is less deserving of sympathy, by saying they are all responsible for the actions of their government.

Everyone in Greece has to deal with the consequences of their governments actions, but not everyone in Greece is responsible for the actions of their government, i.e. not everyone in Greece is culpable for their governments actions.

I'm not deferring their responsibility to deal with the results of the crisis, just that it is wrong to say they deserve what they've got, or that they deserve less sympathy than anyone else, based on the above reasoning.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 11:24pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Okey so not all Greeks are responsible for the crisis their country is in, therefore saying "the Greeks are responsible" is false, because that is generalizing to all of the people in Greece.

Indeed. Well spotted - 'the Greeks', like - say - 'the Irish' is a generalisation. I'm not sure we are breaking any new ground here though.

KyussBishop wrote: »

More so, it can't be said that all Greek adults are responsible for the mess their country is in, because there is no guarantee that who they voted for would have made a difference, and not all of them voted for the parties that allowed the conditions which helped cause the crisis.

If they weren't happy with how their country was being run, they could have protested (we've seen they are good at that). An individual could stand for election. The fact remains that they were happy to live in a country that lived on credit and where paying tax was a voluntary exercise, while public sector workers were paid twice or three times what their private sector counterparts earned. Their complicity or apathy allowed this situation to develop.

KyussBishop wrote: »

So again, another part of the fallacy; basically, you can't generalize the blame for their crisis, onto all (or even most) of the people in Greece; there is no such thing as responsibility shared by an entire nation like that.

How do you mean, 'there is no such thing'? Of course there is. When Germany invaded Russia, the Russians didn't just shoot at the Germans who supported the war, did they?

You appear to be arguing against the principle of national sovereignty.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Also, whether a person deserves sympathy (and how much), does not depend upon the relative conditions of the country that person is in, or whether or not 'some' people in that country are responsible for the mess it is in.

A person going through a hard time deserves sympathy no matter if there's someone worse off out there or not.

Yes, and I believe I may have said once or twice that they have my sympathy.

KyussBishop · 04-07-2012 11:43pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

If they weren't happy with how their country was being run, they could have protested (we've seen they are good at that). An individual could stand for election. The fact remains that they were happy to live in a country that lived on credit and where paying tax was a voluntary exercise, while public sector workers were paid twice or three times what their private sector counterparts earned. Their complicity or apathy allowed this situation to develop.

Yes and that presupposes both knowledge of the problem and an ability to do something effective about it; the flaws of democracy and limits of the population to both be collectively aware of, and able to do something about issues, are clear.

People have a responsibility to be a watchdog of and to police their government, but they don't collectively share the blame for issues they don't have widespread collective knowledge of, or collective power to prevent, even when they share the responsibility to deal with the results of those issues.

Without diverging further, going back to why I point out the above:
To say all of the people in Greece undergoing hardship, deserve less sympathy because of the actions of their government, is wrong.

Fair enough that they have your sympathy, but that generalization is wrong.

Monty Burnz · 04-07-2012 11:49pm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Yes and that presupposes both knowledge of the problem and an ability to do something effective about it;

Yes, it does. You think they weren't aware of these things?

KyussBishop wrote: »

People have a responsibility to be a watchdog of and to police their government, but they don't collectively share the blame for issues they don't have widespread collective knowledge of, or collective power to prevent, even when they share the responsibility to deal with the results of those issues.

You seem to think they didn't know about this stuff - they did. And they had the collective power to prevent it.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

KyussBishop wrote: »

Without diverging further, going back to why I point out the above:
To say all of the people in Greece undergoing hardship, deserve less sympathy because of the actions of their government, is wrong.

I disagree. If it was somebody else's government who caused the problem - you'd have a point. But it was the government of the Greeks, composed of Greeks, that arose from a society shaped by the Greeks. The majority of them were complicit in this disaster.

KyussBishop · 05-07-2012 12:09am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yes, it does. You think they weren't aware of these things?

You seem to think they didn't know about this stuff - they did. And they had the collective power to prevent it.

A significant proportion would need to have been aware of the problems, and able to collectively act to rectify them.

You can't just unleash the collective power of all the people in a country; how would you propose they overcome the significant inertia of such a movement?

There are numerous political problems in Ireland, that require collective action to rectify, but you can't just ignore the problem of inertia there, where much of the country is not aware of even half of the problems, and getting people informed and actually acting is a huge barrier.

Where people are made aware of problems and actually have an ability to act on it, they have a responsibility to do so, but you cannot lay collective blame on an entire population if there are significant barriers to overcoming both the inertia to action, and spreading of knowledge about issues.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I disagree. If it was somebody else's government who caused the problem - you'd have a point. But it was the government of the Greeks, composed of Greeks, that arose from a society shaped by the Greeks. The majority of them were complicit in this disaster.

How were the majority complicit? Would things have been different if they elected a different government? How would you even know the majority were aware of such problems.

If people are complicit, they have to choose to take some part in an act; part of their reason for voting for a particular party, must have been in direct (not implicit or second hand) support of the particular problematic policies.

If other parties (the other choices) would have undertaken the same policies, or if people did not know what policies would be enacted when voting, or if elected officials undertake different policies than they campaigned for, etc. etc., then people can not be directly complicit as a cause of the issue, even if they are responsible for dealing with the results of it, and are responsible for attempting to rectify it once knowledge of an issue is known.

Good loser · 05-07-2012 12:28am

KyussBishop wrote: »

A significant proportion would need to have been aware of the problems, and able to collectively act to rectify them.

You can't just unleash the collective power of all the people in a country; how would you propose they overcome the significant inertia of such a movement?

There are numerous political problems in Ireland, that require collective action to rectify, but you can't just ignore the problem of inertia there, where much of the country is not aware of even half of the problems, and getting people informed and actually acting is a huge barrier.

Where people are made aware of problems and actually have an ability to act on it, they have a responsibility to do so, but you cannot lay collective blame on an entire population if there are significant barriers to overcoming both the inertia to action, and spreading of knowledge about issues.

How were the majority complicit? Would things have been different if they elected a different government? How would you even know the majority were aware of such problems.

If people are complicit, they have to choose to take some part in an act; part of their reason for voting for a particular party, must have been in direct (not implicit or second hand) support of the particular problematic policies.

If other parties (the other choices) would have undertaken the same policies, or if people did not know what policies would be enacted when voting, or if elected officials undertake different policies than they campaigned for, etc. etc., then people can not be directly complicit as a cause of the issue, even if they are responsible for dealing with the results of it, and are responsible for attempting to rectify it once knowledge of an issue is known.

If you read the Vanity Fair article quoted earlier it appears every significant sector of Greek society - apart from the bankers - was in on kleptocracy.

Monty Burnz · 05-07-2012 12:36am

KyussBishop wrote: »

A significant proportion would need to have been aware of the problems, and able to collectively act to rectify them.

You can't just unleash the collective power of all the people in a country; how would you propose they overcome the significant inertia of such a movement?

Everybody knew about 'the problems', same as everyone in Ireland knew Bertie Ahern was crooked. It's not up to me to propose how people overcome their inertia - I am only saying that their inertia is their own responsibility.

KyussBishop wrote: »

How were the majority complicit? Would things have been different if they elected a different government? How would you even know the majority were aware of such problems.

The majority are complicit because their government, their parties - everything about the Greek political world - arises from Greek society. Who is responsible for Greek society?

KyussBishop wrote: »

If people are complicit, they have to choose to take some part in an act; part of their reason for voting for a particular party, must have been in direct (not implicit or second hand) support of the particular problematic policies.

Not true. You can be complicit by just sitting back and watching - which many did, while enjoying the short-term benefits.

KyussBishop wrote: »

If other parties (the other choices) would have undertaken the same policies, or if people did not know what policies would be enacted when voting, or if elected officials undertake different policies than they campaigned for, etc. etc., then people can not be directly complicit as a cause of the issue, even if they are responsible for dealing with the results of it, and are responsible for attempting to rectify it once knowledge of an issue is known.

This is getting rather silly now. You are trying to totally disassociate a whole nation from its own government and society.

Monty Burnz · 05-07-2012 12:37am

Good loser wrote: »

If you read the Vanity Fair article quoted earlier it appears every significant sector of Greek society - apart from the bankers - was in on kleptocracy.

I wouldn't count on people having read the article unfortunately.

KyussBishop · 05-07-2012 1:34am

That Vanity Fair article was interesting; I'm not sure how much difficulty in inertia the population would have had in enacting change, but (if the article is accurate) it would be hard to say anyone didn't know how widespread corruption was.

In their case, it was certainly a case of the population bearing at least some responsibility, due to the problems being very well known and widespread; I wonder whether there were inertial difficulties in enacting change (whistleblowers were certainly persecuted, but that's the least of it), or whether it was entirely culture.

Monty Burnz · 05-07-2012 1:42am

KyussBishop wrote: »

That Vanity Fair article was interesting; I'm not sure how much difficulty in inertia the population would have had in enacting change, but (if the article is accurate) it would be hard to say anyone didn't know how widespread corruption was.

Ok, hopefully now you understand what I was getting at. I'm not a heartless clown laughing at the Greeks' problems, I'm trying to balance this notion that they are pure victims of some sort of external conspiracy.

KyussBishop · 05-07-2012 2:13am

No that's fair enough, I don't mean to posit that they were a victim of any grand conspiracy, I just personally think there is a limit to collective culpability.

In the Greek case, there's certainly a shared responsibility, I just don't know where I'd place the limits of that now, since the corruption was pretty obvious and widespread.

Going Forward · 07-07-2012 1:24am

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Ok, hopefully now you understand what I was getting at. I'm not a heartless clown laughing at the Greeks' problems, I'm trying to balance this notion that they are pure victims of some sort of external conspiracy.

The issue probably comes down to one of conscience.
Depending on one's beliefs, Greece, cast in the role of idiot thief, either should or should not be assisted, and if so, to what extent? (And why?)

To withold assistance would seem to prolong the current conditions, whilst to assist would lead to fears of lesson not having been learnt.

The first problem arises, Greece or the Greek people?

My issue is this:
Even though it is collectively acknowledged that "serious errors" were made in the mishandling of the entire Greek economy, should those who are less fortunate than those who lined their own pockets suffer more than those that did?

But should lawbreakers be rehabilitated or punished?
The answer, in the local case is often down to economics- rehabilitate the drug abuser, introduce the thief to those from whom he has stolen, and hopefully the drug abuser wont place such a future strain on state resources, and hopefully the thief wont be accomodated at our expenses through a lifetime's 40, 50. or 90 convictions in and out of the court system.

Too much austerity is going to create a generational problem, whilst at the same time, no institutional reform for previous misdemeanours will ensure nothing officially changes.

Thanks to the VA article, I am conscientuously challenged.
Also, thanks to comments in the follow-up Q and A with the writer.

How can I sympathise with Greece who screwed with the system for years?

There must be some protection for those at the lower end of the scale facing poverty as opposed to punishment all round.

The only option I can endorse is one of basic "social" protection, ie, ensuring that the "failure" has but the basic requirements, but that must include medicine, power etc, and that is the point, for me.

Were they too "thick", conniving or uneducated (like the Irish, voting for FF)?, well, there is always an opportunity to vote, and act differently, but it will certainly not happen overnight.

The UN has warned against the social costs of austerity measures, also http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=42173&Cr=economic+crisis&Cr1=and that is my concern.

SeanW · 08-07-2012 3:40pm

Good loser wrote: »

If you read the Vanity Fair article quoted earlier it appears every significant sector of Greek society - apart from the bankers - was in on kleptocracy.

Yes, a bizarre twist of fate that while everywhere else, the banks broke their countries by engaging in glorified casino gambling, Greece was a country that broke its banks (that were otherwise sleepy and careful).

Going Forward wrote: »

The issue probably comes down to one of conscience.
Depending on one's beliefs, Greece, cast in the role of idiot thief, either should or should not be assisted, and if so, to what extent? (And why?)

To withold assistance would seem to prolong the current conditions, whilst to assist would lead to fears of lesson not having been learnt.

The first problem arises, Greece or the Greek people?

My issue is this:
Even though it is collectively acknowledged that "serious errors" were made in the mishandling of the entire Greek economy, should those who are less fortunate than those who lined their own pockets suffer more than those that did?

Let's be clear - austerity in Greece is unavoidable. No matter what you say, their government is spending way more than they're taking in and no-one believes anything they say anymore, hence they cannot borrow.

One thing is for certain, if people are genuinely in real distress in Greece, i.e. going hungry, having to abandon their children (and I believe this is happening), then that requires action. However, it is a myth that the Greeks do not have the resources to deal with these issues.

The Greek government has spectacularly failed to collect taxes over the years, during their bubble years it was considered legitimate national policy to suspend tax collection during election years.

Their public services are also specatularly riddled with waste and fraud, to a point where they make our spoiled crybaby public servants look like exploited wage-slaves by comparison.

Responsibility for correcting these issues, so as to have the funds necessary to take care of those who are in real difficulty, lies absolutely 100% with the Greek government.

Severity of Greek Austerity Measures

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