Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

mfceiling · 06-02-2016 12:50am

leakyboots wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Sounds like you've your mind made up and your knives sharpened already for a fella learning his trade in the position compared to a Lion's test 15.

As for his counter-attacking, he's only Munster's joint all-time try scorer at the age of 25 with 41 tries. Kearney has 38 for Leinster. (Heaslip has 36 - very impressive!)

Not hard to make your mind up on Zebo as a full back. He's not great. As a winger he's alright. As a full back he's not.

My point on him counter attacking is not a slight on him more a point that people say rob doesn't counter attack. We will see that it's not a weakness of Rob but more that it's an instruction of how to play ie Zebo won't be running back with gay abandon.

jm08 · 06-02-2016 2:55am

Billysays no wrote: »

Glad I opened your eyes !!!!

mfceiling wrote: »

Not hard to make your mind up on Zebo as a full back. He's not great. As a winger he's alright. As a full back he's not.

My point on him counter attacking is not a slight on him more a point that people say rob doesn't counter attack. We will see that it's not a weakness of Rob but more that it's an instruction of how to play ie Zebo won't be running back with gay abandon.

Rob does counter attack, but he never heads for space, always seeking contact. No doubt that is what Joe wants him to do, so its hard to blame him.

Flipper22 · 06-02-2016 4:23am

leakyboots wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Sounds like you've your mind made up and your knives sharpened already for a fella learning his trade in the position compared to a Lion's test 15.

As for his counter-attacking, he's only Munster's joint all-time try scorer at the age of 25 with 41 tries. Kearney has 38 for Leinster. (Heaslip has 36 - very impressive!)

I think his point is regarding people criticising Kearney as a counter attacker. We won't see a whole lot of searing linebreaks from him running the ball back as that's not realistic. He'll be doing his best Kearney impression, and hopefully he does a good job. I think he'll be grand, but we won't see all that much in terms of the type of fireworks that people criticise Kearney for not doing.

CMOTDibbler · 06-02-2016 11:21am

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

kick chase rugby, yawn.

Absolutely, you can forgive a loss if we die on our feet, or are bedding in a new exciting gameplan and young players, winning playing "kick contestables" is crap rugby, its a regression.

If you think our tactics so far under Joe have been restricted to kick-chase rugby then you really haven't been watching. In last year's 6N for example, we kicked no more of our possession than any of our oppositions.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

It was the gameplan, we didnt have any ideas beyond kicking contestables, and Earls at 13, just lol, the chap cant defend. Terrible selection, injuries notwithstanding

Yawn and lol indeed. Argentina scored a try from a kick in that game. "Terrible selection, injuries notwithstanding".

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Im no Kidney fan, but he looked to get big runners, secure ruck ball and have ROG playing percentages. Its was crap and found out after we won the 6N, we are playing a more refined version of that, kick chase, hit rucks and play percentages, its not some rugby revolution like when he was at Leinster where we passed teams off the park.

You could say the exact same thing about any team in the 6N. It's as vague as it is ridiculously reductive.

jm08 · 06-02-2016 1:45pm

Shane Jennings views on Ireland:

That’s not how Jennings sees it. For sure there could be some growing pains. New players will need time. But just as importantly, as he sees it, Ireland need to play a new kind of game. If they do, bright days will follow.

“I’d just love our mindset and attitude to go ‘Wait a minute, we’re not the biggest team. Why are we going into collisions when we don’t need to? Let’s be a bit more creative and have an appreciation for space.’

“I know whenever I played, I was as happy as Larry when someone ran at me. I’d be bricking myself if I saw some fella a bit further away from me who had good feet and the option to put a bit of a step on me.

“I genuinely think we have a talented group of players that are capable of playing that kind of game. I don’t know what it’s like in camp, I don’t know what they’re being told, but you would hope that they realise we need to change. Because the World Cup showed we need to change. It didn’t work.

If we want to get to World Cup semi-finals, if we want to win more Six Nations championships, I don’t think what we’ve done in the past will get us over the line. Because other teams have changed. The opposition coaching has changed.”

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/the-big-interview-shane-jennings-hits-hard-on-and-off-the-field-380422.html

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 1:52pm

HA, good old Jenno, class player and obv a non kool aid drinking pundit. The "Schmidt is a genius" love in has to stop if he serves up the same style kick chase crap.

The Black Stags · 06-02-2016 1:55pm

Anyone think it's been a bit of a ruse from camp telling the media they don't need to change their game plan and will essentially do as they did before (minor tweaks included). Just to totally wrong foot Gatty.

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 1:55pm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

If you think our tactics so far under Joe have been restricted to kick-chase rugby then you really haven't been watching. In last year's 6N for example, we kicked no more of our possession than any of our oppositions.

Yawn and lol indeed. Argentina scored a try from a kick in that game. "Terrible selection, injuries notwithstanding".

You could say the exact same thing about any team in the 6N. It's as vague as it is ridiculously reductive.

We'll agree to differ, last day aside, the Wales game showed up the toothlessness of our attack and what happened when teams planned for our kicking game.

Cave should have been at thirteen, massive selection error, Earls can not and never will be, able to defend in the thirteen channel.

irishbucsfan · 06-02-2016 1:59pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

HA, good old Jenno, class player and obv a non kool aid drinking pundit. The "Schmidt is a genius" love in has to stop if he serves up the same style kick chase crap.

Eh

Shane Jennings wrote:

Joe is one of the best coaches in the world, if not the best. His knowledge of rugby is unbelievable and the detail he goes into just helps every player grow.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 06-02-2016 2:01pm

Mett Wulliums is at it again this year. I don't think Schmidt should be beyond questioning but Williams' logic makes no sense to me. He says we need to be a more attacking side and score more and yet we've just won two Six Nations and England, who scored loads of tries last year, didn't. Using the World Cup as a sticking point is kind of annoying too, it's once every 4 years. Are we supposed to risk winning nothing at all for 2/3 years on the off chance that we might win a World Cup?

I get that a lot of people just want to see more "exciting" rugby but I wish they'd just admit that that's the reason they're pushing for it rather than trying to sell this nonsense about not winning things with good defense or what have you.

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 2:06pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Eh

Jennings is rightly questioning our tactics, which is the first step to criticising the coach.

At Leinster, that was all true, he's our best ever coach, no doubt about it, a genius in what he did and the levels he brought our play to. He hasnt even scraped that level with Ireland, its dull rugby by numbers concealed behind nonsense like ruck resourcing etc. We have the lowest forwards passing and team offload rates in the competition. Its dull rugby.

Look at this pre season game between the Blues and Melbourne, look at the handling, lines, awareness of space and OFFLOADS. Id hope thats what we have been practising, if its more of the same because we know it'll keep us in the hunt as the standard is crap, thats just setting us up for more world cup failure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTOZmpwhpSA

CMOTDibbler · 06-02-2016 2:11pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

We'll agree to differ, last day aside, the Wales game showed up the toothlessness of our attack and what happened when teams planned for our kicking game.

This is pure revisionism. Wales defended unbelievably well in that game. We went through phase after phase in their 22 and got nothing out of it. Jamie Roberts made an absolutely unbelievable tackle to save a certain try. A tackle that had as much to do with intelligence as power. We were in the Welsh half for 30 minutes of the second half and had three quarters of the possession. You don't get those stats from kicking the ball away.

Edit: Just checked and Wales made 250 tackles that day and missed 22. 92% tackle completion in those kinds of tackle numbers is pure fantasy.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Cave should have been at thirteen, massive selection error, Earls can not and never will be, able to defend in the thirteen channel.

That is literally the only selection that you could question for that match and even then it's a 50/50 call at best. Cave should probably have been brought in sooner but the injury situation with Payne looked short term until the swelling went down and the scan showed a fracture. Them's the breaks when you're operating with a small enough squad to start with.

Buer · 06-02-2016 2:13pm

Calling ruck resourcing nonsense and trying to compare tier one test rugby to a pre-season game between two teams playing in warm, dry conditions is about as absurd as I've seen on here in recent days.

Utah_Saint · 06-02-2016 2:40pm

The Black Stags wrote: »

Anyone think it's been a bit of a ruse from camp telling the media they don't need to change their game plan and will essentially do as they did before (minor tweaks included). Just to totally wrong foot Gatty.

Lol...the same way we were gonna go for it during the wc and we were holding back special plays in the warmups

CMOTDibbler · 06-02-2016 2:42pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Lol...the same way we were gonna go for it during the wc and we were holding back special plays in the warmups

I think the only people saying that were some posters here?

Same as now really

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 2:45pm

Buer wrote: »

Calling ruck resourcing nonsense and trying to compare tier one test rugby to a pre-season game between two teams playing in warm, dry conditions is about as absurd as I've seen on here in recent days.

Its nonsense in that its a euphemism for conservative rugby, used to defend why we are not an entertaining side. The blues clip was just an example of where we should be aiming for. NZ provinces go as the national side goes, you are being willfully blind if you dont think that high tempo offloading game is not going to be implemented at All Black level after they have been practising it during super rugby level

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 2:48pm

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

This is pure revisionism. Wales defended unbelievably well in that game. We went through phase after phase in their 22 and got nothing out of it. Jamie Roberts made an absolutely unbelievable tackle to save a certain try. A tackle that had as much to do with intelligence as power. We were in the Welsh half for 30 minutes of the second half and had three quarters of the possession. You don't get those stats from kicking the ball away.

Edit: Just checked and Wales made 250 tackles that day and missed 22. 92% tackle completion in those kinds of tackle numbers is pure fantasy.

That is literally the only selection that you could question for that match and even then it's a 50/50 call at best. Cave should probably have been brought in sooner but the injury situation with Payne looked short term until the swelling went down and the scan showed a fracture. Them's the breaks when you're operating with a small enough squad to start with.

We ran straight into them, playing bosh rugby after our "kick them off the park" plan A failed. The revisionism is in thinking Wales were something special, they played very well against a stale predicable attack concerned with retaining possession.

Its criminal we didnt beat them that day.

Yeah_Right · 06-02-2016 2:48pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Jennings is rightly questioning our tactics, which is the first step to criticising the coach.

At Leinster, that was all true, he's our best ever coach, no doubt about it, a genius in what he did and the levels he brought our play to. He hasnt even scraped that level with Ireland, its dull rugby by numbers concealed behind nonsense like ruck resourcing etc. We have the lowest forwards passing and team offload rates in the competition. Its dull rugby.

Look at this pre season game between the Blues and Melbourne, look at the handling, lines, awareness of space and OFFLOADS. Id hope thats what we have been practising, if its more of the same because we know it'll keep us in the hunt as the standard is crap, thats just setting us up for more world cup failure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTOZmpwhpSA

You are comparing a preseason club match played in 30 degrees on a dry ground with a 6 Nations match!! WTF?

JPNelsforearm · 06-02-2016 2:51pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You are comparing a preseason club match played in 30 degrees on a dry ground with a 6 Nations match!! WTF?

Im pointing out the angles of running, awareness of space and offloading. Which I believe should be implemented into our gameplan.

Yeah_Right · 06-02-2016 3:04pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Im pointing out the angles of running, awareness of space and offloading. Which I believe should be implemented into our gameplan.

There was actually very little offloading. More drawing the man and passing than offloading in the tackle.

Also you might want to check your stats before you go on about Ireland only playing a kick chase game. Just caught a bit of an interview with JS where he pointed out the last Wales and Ireland played, Ireland kicked 11 times compared to Wales with 22. Not sure if he was referring to the 6 Nations or the warm ups.

He also said that Ireland kicked less than the ABs (didn't catch which match) and Ireland kicked the least out of the RWC quarter finalists.

Buer · 06-02-2016 3:11pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Im pointing out the angles of running, awareness of space and offloading. Which I believe should be implemented into our gameplan.

You're ignoring the point made.

How do you implement a style that's suited to dry pitches played in 25C at the end of the summer on the north island when you're playing in a wet, heavy pitch in 7C and blustery conditions?

You can try but you won't be able to do it with any consistency at test level when time and space is shut down ten times more quickly than it is in a pre-season friendly. We see it time and time again over a season where we go bananas at players trying high risk offloads in unsuitable conditions and losing possession.

jm08 · 06-02-2016 3:18pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

There was actually very little offloading. More drawing the man and passing than offloading in the tackle.

Also you might want to check your stats before you go on about Ireland only playing a kick chase game. Just caught a bit of an interview with JS where he pointed out the last Wales and Ireland played, Ireland kicked 11 times compared to Wales with 22. Not sure if he was referring to the 6 Nations or the warm ups.

He also said that Ireland kicked less than the ABs (didn't catch which match) and Ireland kicked the least out of the RWC quarter finalists.

It was the 6Ns game. Wales kicked more because they were defending in their own 22 most of the time. Ireland also conceeded 14 turnovers to Wales' 8 conceeded.

Other insteresting stat from that game is Ireland passed the ball 254 times to Wales 123. Ireland 5 offloads, Wales 3.

aimee1 · 06-02-2016 3:19pm

jm08 wrote: »

It was the 6Ns game. Wales kicked more because they were defending in their own 22 most of the time. Ireland also conceeded 14 turnovers to Wales' 8 conceeded.

Other insteresting stat from that game is Ireland passed the ball 254 times to Wales 123. Ireland 5 offloads, Wales 3.

so we should kick more, pass less and dont offload at all then

jm08 · 06-02-2016 3:23pm

aimee1 wrote: »

so we should kick more, pass less and dont offload at all then

No, just get a few monsters to just defend and a couple of people who are good at winning turnover ball.;)

Other stats: Tackling
Wales 228/250
Ireland 88/105

Ireland attack was blunt.

CMOTDibbler · 06-02-2016 3:30pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

We ran straight into them, playing bosh rugby after our "kick them off the park" plan A failed. The revisionism is in thinking Wales were something special, they played very well against a stale predicable attack concerned with retaining possession.

Its criminal we didnt beat them that day.

Since others have already pointed out the facts about that game, I'll just point out that very few teams can manage 250 tackles in 80 minutes let alone make 228 of them stick.

There was nothing criminal about losing that day. It was the most comprehensive defensive effort I have ever seen in the 6N. We made enough breaks to get scores but last ditch tackling saved Wales on more than one occasion.

For somebody who turns their nose up at ruck resourcing, where we lost that game was in the number of turnovers we conceded, not kicking the ball.

CMOTDibbler · 06-02-2016 3:34pm

jm08 wrote: »

No, just get a few monsters to just defend and a couple of people who are good at winning turnover ball.;)

Other stats: Tackling
Wales 228/250
Ireland 88/105

Ireland attack was blunt.

It wasn't that blunt. That tackle by Roberts I mentioned was an unbelievable read by him. He just about got the tackle in, a split second later would have been a try for us. We made 4 clean breaks in that game, but we only turned over the ball once. That's where games are won or lost. Turnover ball is really the only way to unlock tight defences in international rugby.

Fireball07 · 06-02-2016 3:59pm

It'll be good to have Trimble back

salmocab · 06-02-2016 8:02pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

It'll be good to have Trimble back

yeah think him and Earls are probably the best options we have currently.

aimee1 · 06-02-2016 8:05pm

salmocab wrote: »

yeah think him and Earls are probably the best options we have currently.

they are actually. Bowe and Fitz are injured.

salmocab · 06-02-2016 8:08pm

Bowe has been off form anyway and I think Fitz is about level with Earls at wing but ahead as a centre

Blackclaret · 07-02-2016 12:22pm

Buer wrote: »

You're ignoring the point made.

How do you implement a style that's suited to dry pitches played in 25C at the end of the summer on the north island when you're playing in a wet, heavy pitch in 7C and blustery conditions?

You can try but you won't be able to do it with any consistency at test level when time and space is shut down ten times more quickly than it is in a pre-season friendly. We see it time and time again over a season where we go bananas at players trying high risk offloads in unsuitable conditions and losing possession.

Think there needs to be a discussion about reslotting the 6N to an April/May window ante club domestic/European competitions, if expansive open rugby is our ambition, its no councidence that the French appear best suited of NH teams in this regard.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 07-02-2016 12:35pm

i fully expect a comprehensive beating today,
no henderson, obrein, omahoney, bowe, ross, kearney, healy,
poor form of heaslip, murray, sexton, zebo
payne and henshaw just back from injury

Wales by 15

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 07-02-2016 12:35pm

i fully expect a comprehensive beating today,
no henderson, obrein, omahoney, bowe, ross, kearney, healy,
poor form of heaslip, murray, sexton, zebo
payne and henshaw just back from injury

Wales by 15

stephen_n · 07-02-2016 12:35pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Im no Kidney fan, but he looked to get big runners, secure ruck ball and have ROG playing percentages. Its was crap and found out after we won the 6N, we are playing a more refined version of that, kick chase, hit rucks and play percentages, its not some rugby revolution like when he was at Leinster where we passed teams off the park.

You are aware this isn't club rugby, it isn't even comparable to it? That's complete revisionist bs or else you only watched a handful of Leinster games under Joe. In fact Leinsters success under Joe was built around playing percentages, grinding out results in away games. Playing more defensively than offensively. Most of the champagne rugby was played against weaker teams. With less structured defenses. Those teams don't exist in the 6N

Rightwing · 07-02-2016 12:40pm

Blackclaret wrote: »

Think there needs to be a discussion about reslotting the 6N to an April/May window ante club domestic/European competitions, if expansive open rugby is our ambition, its no councidence that the French appear best suited of NH teams in this regard.

Also BP need to be brought in.

M Williams had an interesting article in yesterday's Times, the JS hero worshipping period is over.

Pink Fairy · 07-02-2016 12:43pm

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

i fully expect a comprehensive beating today,
no henderson, obrein, omahoney, bowe, ross, kearney, healy,
poor form of heaslip, murray, sexton, zebo
payne and henshaw just back from injury

Wales by 15

Only by 15? No BOD or Dare either, I'd say 20+ is more realistic

Teferi · 07-02-2016 12:45pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Also BP need to be brought in.

M Williams had an interesting article in yesterday's Times, the JS hero worshipping period is over.

WHAT DOES THIS EVEN MEAN? IT'S SUCH A DUMB STATEMENT, A COUPLE OF POSTERS TRYING TO REPEAT IT FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE.

Joe Schmidt is a an absolutely cracking coach but has never been above criticism. Jaysus Christ.

Rightwing · 07-02-2016 12:48pm

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Only by 15? No BOD or Dare either, I'd say 20+ is more realistic

Highly unlikely.

We must remember the 4 best sides in the world are not taking part in this competition. Therefore there can't be a huge gap. Bit like the matches yesterday, I would expect a low quality, tight game, which makes it exciting if nothing else.

Bazzo · 07-02-2016 12:49pm

Leandro Round Billboard wrote: »

i fully expect a comprehensive beating today,
no henderson, obrein, omahoney, bowe, ross, kearney, healy,
poor form of heaslip, murray, sexton, zebo
payne and henshaw just back from injury

Wales by 15

You should stick some money on it. 13/2 on PP.

thomond2006 · 07-02-2016 12:55pm

I'm sick of reading about bonus points. There's numerous reasons for not bringing them in and last year's amazing Super Saturday should have put the argument to bed. At the very least a Grand Slam would have to outweigh a higher points finish with 4 wins so what the **** is the point of bringing in bonus points then?

Podge_irl · 07-02-2016 12:56pm

Rightwing wrote: »

the JS hero worshipping period is over.

:rolleyes:

He's not a "hero". He's merely the most successful coach we have ever had in Ireland ergo some of us are willing to give him some benefit of the doubt.

I recall some pretty grim pessimism before that South Africa game a couple years ago when we had an awful injury list. Turned out to be completely unnecessary.

Rightwing · 07-02-2016 12:58pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

:rolleyes:

He's not a "hero". He's merely the most successful coach we have ever had in Ireland ergo some of us are willing to give him some benefit of the doubt.

I recall some pretty grim pessimism before that South Africa game a couple years ago when we had an awful injury list. Turned out to be completely unnecessary.

I would regard Kidney more successful. He needs a GS to claim that title. No question about that.

stephen_n · 07-02-2016 12:59pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Also BP need to be brought in.

M Williams had an interesting article in yesterday's Times, the JS hero worshipping period is over.

Matt Williams the successful coach? Had an interesting article criticizing the coach who has delivered back to back 6N championships. I'm sure it is interesting, it's also interesting how Matt Williams analysis can carry so much weight for those who wanted Joe to fail from the start.

Pink Fairy · 07-02-2016 1:03pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Highly unlikely.

We must remember the 4 best sides in the world are not taking part in this competition. Therefore there can't be a huge gap. Bit like the matches yesterday, I would expect a low quality, tight game, which makes it exciting if nothing else.

I was being facetious

Bazzo · 07-02-2016 1:03pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I would regard Kidney more successful. He needs a GS to claim that title. No question about that.

You regard Kidney, who won just over 50% of his games in charge of Ireland and 1 GS 6 nations as more successful than Schmidt, who has won 75% of his games in charge of Ireland and 2 6 nations

Right.

awec · 07-02-2016 1:06pm

That's enough of this most successful coach stuff please.

Podge_irl · 07-02-2016 1:07pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I would regard Kidney more successful. He needs a GS to claim that title. No question about that.

Eh...there are loads of questions about it.

Trophies are trophies and Schmidt has more of them (provincially or internationally) than any other coach in Ireland has ever had. This does not mean he is automatically right in everything he does, obviously, but an awful lot of the rhetoric about him is absurd in the extreme. It is harsher at times than what either EOS or Kidney faced when doing a lot, lot worse.

Teferi · 07-02-2016 1:08pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I would regard Kidney more successful. He needs a GS to claim that title. No question about that.

Literally every time you say this (and you say it a lot) there's a question about it.

Schmidt is a far, far better coach than Kidney.

Rightwing · 07-02-2016 1:10pm

stephen_n wrote: »

Matt Williams the successful coach? Had an interesting article criticizing the coach who has delivered back to back 6N championships. I'm sure it is interesting, it's also interesting how Matt Williams analysis can carry so much weight for those who wanted Joe to fail from the start.

You are being rather harsh on Williams, the man is merely providing a reality check.

swiwi_ · 07-02-2016 1:15pm

There is absolutely no doubt that Schmidt is a top coach.

The jury is out for me on whether he is also a top selector.

The jury is currently retired to deliberate and a possible decision is expected later this afternoon. Although the members may ask for further evidence and defer the decision by a few weeks (fence-sitting is the colloquial term).

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

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