Is being gay a choice

Fergus_Nash · 10-05-2012 12:16pm #1

Here's a question that I've been pondering for a while. Do LGB people decide that they are LGB? I don't mean this that gay people decide to go gay and have a bit of fun and then go back straight and I apologise for this sounding crass.

What I mean is that LGB people usually come out during their pubescent years but are they born LGB? Or is it like straight people who think that girls have cooties when they are ten and only find that girls are good looking at fifteen i.e. that whether a person is gay or straight they only start to find their sexual orientation at puberty?

I don't mean to sound like an oafish bigot when I ask this question - I hope I don't come across as so. Also I left out Transgender people because I simply don't know enough about them and whether they fit into these questions or not. I'm not gay by the way, or even thinking about it. I just want to get opinions.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 12:30pm

The thing is we are all born with a sort of bisexual inclination, societal values are what hold people back from admitting it. There is a fear of rejection and/or discrimination when it comes to openly expressing homosexual tendencies. For most people however the tendency is not important to them or is strong enough for them to even contemplate choosing what would be viewed as an alternative lifestyle. Most people wish to procreate and this can only be achieved easily in a heterosexual relationship.
I believe that it is preference, some people love mushrooms, some people hate them, some people don't mind them. As we grow and see the world we learn what are taste buds like.

baby and crumble · 10-05-2012 12:49pm

Fergus_Nash wrote: »

What I mean is that LGB people usually come out during their pubescent years but are they born LGB? Or is it like straight people who think that girls have cooties when they are ten and only find that girls are good looking at fifteen i.e. that whether a person is gay or straight they only start to find their sexual orientation at puberty?

How can you know who you are sexually attracted to until you start feeling sexual attraction?

There are lots of people who come out earlier or later. But puberty is when everyone starts to realise who they are, who they find attractive, an what they want from life. So it would make sense that that's when a lot of people realise they are gay.

Notice I said "realise". I honestly have never understood how anyone could think that people choose to be gay, no offence OP. Why would anyone choose a life where an awful lot of people think you're strange, wrong, evil etc.? Choose a life where you have less rights than everyone else? Choose a life that could loose you your family and friends?

10-05-2012 12:51pm

no i was born gay if i could go straight i would make life much easier aka family crap

dory · 10-05-2012 12:53pm

I first fancied a girl when I was 4 - so I would say it's not a choice as I certainly didn't choose anything at that age.

What you're talking about is people who are gay for a while and then get married to someone of the opposite sex. That is totally different from the usual 'is gay a choice' question.

In answer to that. Yes, I've seen a lot of people who are gay, have long term gay relationships and then one day decide they can't do it, they can't go against the norm. Some want children more than they want to be with someone they're sexually attracted to. I've had a few friends get married and drunkenly admit they don't fancy the person they married, they just needed the perfect family idea.

So in your sense, it is a choice to live the life of a gay person because one can also choose to pretend and go get married.

Dwn Wth Vwls · 10-05-2012 1:03pm

I have friends who knew they were attracted to the same sex at 5 or 6 before they even understood what it meant. Everybody is different, there's no blanket explanation.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 1:10pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

The thing is we are all born with a sort of bisexual inclination, societal values are what hold people back from admitting it. There is a fear of rejection and/or discrimination when it comes to openly expressing homosexual tendencies. .

I don't buy that at all. I have no fear of expressing any tendencies whatsoever, but i'm still not gay or bisexual because i'm just not attracted to men. It's not fear or reppresion or societal pressure of any sort, i just like women!

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 1:12pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't buy that at all. I have no fear of expressing any tendencies whatsoever, but i'm still not gay or bisexual because i'm just not attracted to men. It's not fear or reppresion or societal pressure of any sort, i just like women!

do you also find armpit hair disgusting on women? I'm just curious.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 1:14pm

Babybuff wrote: »

do you also find armpit hair disgusting on women? I'm just curious.

Little bit.
Is that relevant?

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 1:15pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Little bit.
Is that relevant?

Na, I'm just curious like the monkey.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 1:16pm

Careful now. Did you hear what curiosity done to the cat?:D

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 1:19pm

I did and it was fun. :0

I suppose I was thinking along the lines of how we are programmed from an early age to have certain expectations, hairfree women being one of them. and I got to associating that with other societal expectations, like sexual orientation.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 1:28pm

I come at from the other side.
I think more and more society is reflecting the likes and dislikes of the masses, rather than preaching to the masses what they should like and dislike. The main cultural drivers these days are populist in nature, tv, internet, music and so on. They just give people what the like rather than try to mould them into something they themselves want people to be, like the church for example.
Take the porn industry for example, it doesn't have a view on whether women should be hairy or not - the people who consume it do.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 2:09pm

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't buy that at all. I have no fear of expressing any tendencies whatsoever, but i'm still not gay or bisexual because i'm just not attracted to men. It's not fear or reppresion or societal pressure of any sort, i just like women!

fair enough, but I think my point more so was that you probably have experienced an attraction to a male before within the span of your life so far.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 2:30pm

To-may-to, to-mah-to i think. Obviously I can look at a movie and cop that Brad Pitt is a very good looking bloke, I wouldn't call it an attraction though. My thought process would be more along the lines of I wouldn't mind looking like that myself, not what i'd like to do to him!

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 2:32pm

Its called a crush, don't tell me you have never had one of those before on a person of your own sex!

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 2:43pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Its called a crush, don't tell me you have never had one of those before on a person of your own sex!

No, I didn't.

Edit: I don't think that would be uncommon either?

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 2:46pm

I would want to have a good think about that one if i were you ....!

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 2:51pm

Ok!
Obviously we both can only see things from our own perspective, but I would gamble that of all the people I know, that position would be very much in the majority. I'd be amazed if it wasn't in fact.

seamus · 10-05-2012 2:52pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Its called a crush, don't tell me you have never had one of those before on a person of your own sex!

I never have.

I've certainly idolised other men and would love to meet them, but I've never thought that I would like to spend a dirty night with any of them.

Women now, there have been plenty of crushes.

I don't buy the "everyone is born bisexual" line because it ignores the bare facts of the situation.

However, I would accept that there may be a lot of people who are bisexual who don't act on it either because they feel no need to or they're actively surpressing it.

As for the gay/choice question, I think it's a no brainer. I didn't choose to be heterosexual and I never reached a juncture in my life where I had the ability to choose between men or women, so therefore I don't see why it's assumed that anyone else did either.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 2:57pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

The thing is we are all born with a sort of bisexual inclination, societal values are what hold people back from admitting it. There is a fear of rejection and/or discrimination when it comes to openly expressing homosexual tendencies. For most people however the tendency is not important to them or is strong enough for them to even contemplate choosing what would be viewed as an alternative lifestyle. Most people wish to procreate and this can only be achieved easily in a heterosexual relationship.
I believe that it is preference, some people love mushrooms, some people hate them, some people don't mind them. As we grow and see the world we learn what are taste buds like.

I strongly disagree with you on this. The implication here is that gay and bisexual people are the brave ones who go against the grain in order to be happy, and that a lot of heterosexual people are just going through the motions in order to fit into societal norms. Where is the evidence that everyone is born with a bisexual inclination? I have never been attracted to a woman. I like men. It's the way my body works. I also first fancied someone when I was four, and I was not aware of any societal pressures then. I think it's disingenuous to claim that everybody has bisexual inclinations.

sbsquarepants · 10-05-2012 3:00pm

seamus wrote: »

I've certainly idolised other men and would love to meet them, but I've never thought that I would like to spend a dirty night with any of them.

Women now, there have been plenty of crushes.
.

This is exactly my position. There are dozens of men i'd love to meet and who i admire, idolise even in a couple of cases - but i wouldn't fancy a night smooching away on the couch with any of them!
I would also imagine that is very much the majority mindset.
Of course it's not a choice to be gay,straight or bi, you are what you are. But i don't accept that bisexual is the default position or anything like it, infact i'd actually possibly say the opposite is true, it is probably the rarest. From what i've encountered anyway.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:01pm

Why would someone chose to be gay?

floggg · 10-05-2012 3:04pm

OP, why don't you turn this question on its head to see how much sense it makes?

Did you choose to be straight and if so, when and why? Do you have sexual attractions to men but choose not to act on them? Could you wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay for a week or two, find men sexually attractive and "stimulating", go sleep with a whole bunch of men and enjoy the whole thing?

If your answer is "no, don't be ridiculous, I'm straight and my penis couldn't get erect if I was asked to sleep with loads of men," then please don't be so silly that people choose to be "gay" for the craic even though it can mean being discriminated against, abused, bullied, beaten or even killed.

If your answer is "yes I could, but then I'd still prefer women" then your bisexual with a preference for women.

If your answer is "OMG that sounds totes amazing", then your gayer then a glee christmas special.

I'm not trying to be flippant, and I'm sure you were coming from a genuine place in asking. And i'm not trying to accuse you of being gay.

It's just when you stop and think about it, it's either a silly question or the person asking it is at the very least bisexual.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:05pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I strongly disagree with you on this. The implication here is that gay and bisexual people are the brave ones who go against the grain in order to be happy, and that a lot of heterosexual people are just going through the motions in order to fit into societal norms. Where is the evidence that everyone is born with a bisexual inclination? I have never been attracted to a woman. I like men. It's the way my body works. I also first fancied someone when I was four, and I was not aware of any societal pressures then. I think it's disingenuous to claim that everybody has bisexual inclinations.

Strongly agree with you. My partner is (obviously) gay and she is terrified to tell her parents for fear of their rejection. I dont like the implication that only those who are afraid to come out will do so.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:06pm

floggg wrote: »

OP, why don't you turn this question on its head to see how much sense it makes?

Did you choose to be straight and if so, when and why? Do you have sexual attractions to men but choose not to act on them? Could you wake up tomorrow and decide to be gay for a week or two, find men sexually attractive and "stimulating", go sleep with a whole bunch of men and enjoy the whole thing?

If your answer is "no, don't be ridiculous, I'm straight and my penis couldn't get erect if I was asked to sleep with loads of men," then please don't be so silly that people choose to be "gay" for the craic even though it can mean being discriminated against, abused, bullied, beaten or even killed.

If your answer is "yes I could, but then I'd still prefer women" then your bisexual with a preference for women.

If your answer is "OMG that sounds totes amazing", then your gayer then a glee christmas special.

I'm not trying to be flippant, and I'm sure you were coming from a genuine place in asking. And i'm not trying to accuse you of being gay.

It's just when you stop and think about it, it's either a silly question or the person asking it is at the very least bisexual.

Wish I could thank this post more than once!

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:07pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I strongly disagree with you on this. The implication here is that gay and bisexual people are the brave ones who go against the grain in order to be happy, and that a lot of heterosexual people are just going through the motions in order to fit into societal norms. Where is the evidence that everyone is born with a bisexual inclination? I have never been attracted to a woman. I like men. It's the way my body works. I also first fancied someone when I was four, and I was not aware of any societal pressures then. I think it's disingenuous to claim that everybody has bisexual inclinations.

I was not implying that heterosexual people are 'just going through the motions in order to be happy' and to just simply 'fit into societal norms'. What I was saying was that we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe.

Innate bisexuality (or predisposition to bisexuality) is a term introduced by Sigmund Freud (based on work by his associate Wilhelm Fliess), that expounds all humans are born bisexual but through psychological development (which includes both external and internal factors) become monosexual while the bisexuality remains in a latent state.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:10pm

dory wrote: »

I first fancied a girl when I was 4 - so I would say it's not a choice as I certainly didn't choose anything at that age.

What you're talking about is people who are gay for a while and then get married to someone of the opposite sex. That is totally different from the usual 'is gay a choice' question.

In answer to that. Yes, I've seen a lot of people who are gay, have long term gay relationships and then one day decide they can't do it, they can't go against the norm. Some want children more than they want to be with someone they're sexually attracted to. I've had a few friends get married and drunkenly admit they don't fancy the person they married, they just needed the perfect family idea.

So in your sense, it is a choice to live the life of a gay person because one can also choose to pretend and go get married.

That's not really choosing to be straight. That's being gay and living a lie. Kind of reminds me a little of the catholic church's stance - it's ok to be gay, just don't act on it :rolleyes:

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:12pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

I was not implying that heterosexual people are 'just going through the motions in order to be happy' and to just simply 'fit into societal norms'. What I was saying was that we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe.

Innate bisexuality (or predisposition to bisexuality) is a term introduced by Sigmund Freud (based on work by his associate Wilhelm Fliess), that expounds all humans are born bisexual but through psychological development (which includes both external and internal factors) become monosexual while the bisexuality remains in a latent state.

Looking for the big red X button lol

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:14pm

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:15pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Looking for the big red X button lol

I don't think he/she is implying it is a conscious choice.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:16pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

?

Sorry, attempt at humour. The one they use on those silly "talent" shows during auditions. When they've heard enough they hit the red button and blast the person off the stage

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:20pm

you could have added rolleyes for extra effect

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:22pm

Babybuff wrote: »

I don't think he/she is implying it is a conscious choice.

"we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:22pm

Babybuff wrote: »

you could have added rolleyes for extra effect

who was that post for?

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:22pm

well fair enough, I hadn't intended on getting myself embroiled in such a hot topic but clearly differing views are out there and I'm of the minority at least in this forum!

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:22pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

"we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"

I don't see the problem with the sentence, unless of course you have no idea what he is talking about.

Fire1985 · 10-05-2012 3:23pm

It's not a choice dumbass. Gay people are born gay.

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:25pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

who was that post for?

It was made in the same vein as your post which was intended to mock a pretty fair opinion, backed up with references because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs. Or you haven't grasped the bones of it.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:25pm

Babybuff wrote: »

I don't see the problem with the sentence, unless of course you have no idea what he is talking about.

Troll much?

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:27pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Troll much?

The point has obviously gone over your head.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:27pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

"we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe"

perhaps a dictionary might help?

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:27pm

Babybuff wrote: »

It was made in the same vein as your post which was intended to mock a pretty fair opinion, because it doesn't fit in with your beliefs. Or you haven't grasped the bones of it.

Ouch. So, when you are replying to a post, I think the correct procedure is to press "quote" and then the person knows that you are replying to them.

I wasn't mocking, like I said, it was an attempt at humour - sorry you didn't find it funny. Incidentally, telling a gay person that they "psychologically chose" to be gay is, in my opinion, a far greater mockery.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 3:29pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

I was not implying that heterosexual people are 'just going through the motions in order to be happy' and to just simply 'fit into societal norms'. What I was saying was that we all have the capacity to be in a same-sex relationship biologically but psychologically we choose not to. It is down to psychological reasons we choose our partners I believe.

Innate bisexuality (or predisposition to bisexuality) is a term introduced by Sigmund Freud (based on work by his associate Wilhelm Fliess), that expounds all humans are born bisexual but through psychological development (which includes both external and internal factors) become monosexual while the bisexuality remains in a latent state.

Freud is not a reliable source for this. He has been challenged and in general his theories are not taken seriously any more. Freud also said that every boy wants to kill his father and have sex with his mother. His primary source for this? Hamlet. Not any actual empirical evidence. Just because Freud decided to theorise on this doesn't make it factual. I'd like to see some scientific evidence that everyone is bisexually predisposed. I really don't agree that biologically everyone has this capacity. Show me biological proof.

When you say that psychologically we choose not to engage in bisexual relationships due to societal pressure, you are implying that a lot of heterosexual people choose to be solely inclined towards heterosexuality in order to fit into societal norms. I don't know what your stance is on the motivations behind homosexuality in this case is. If societal pressure prevents someone being psychologically able to engage in bisexuality then what prevents a homosexual from doing so? I do not think my sexual orientation should be considered less valid (in the sense that is potentially motivated due to societal pressure) than a bisexual's and nor do I think homosexual people would be happy with this either.

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:29pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Ouch. So, when you are replying to a post, I think the correct procedure is to press "quote" and then the person knows that you are replying to them.

I wasn't mocking, like I said, it was an attempt at humour - sorry you didn't find it funny. Incidentally, telling a gay person that they "psychologically chose" to eb gay is, in my opinion, a far greater mockery.

in your case it's hit the "report post" function.
If you have an issue with the post, I suggest you report it. Or maybe you could help yourself by opening your mind up to understanding what it means.

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:30pm

Babybuff wrote: »

The point has obviously gone over your head.

Obviously

OldNotWIse · 10-05-2012 3:32pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

perhaps a dictionary might help?

There are plenty of online ones if you're looking :rolleyes:

Babybuff · 10-05-2012 3:32pm

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Obviously

yeah, I'm out. well done on your contribution to this constructive and educational thread.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:35pm

Oh yes, to be honest I'm not really bothered to write such a lengthy response as you. I'm sorry, I have clearly offended your feelings, I hope that you can get over this. Once again I am sorry.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 3:45pm

feckedformocks wrote: »

Oh yes, to be honest I'm not really bothered to write such a lengthy response as you. I'm sorry, I have clearly offended your feelings, I hope that you can get over this. Once again I am sorry.

I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way.

feckedformocks · 10-05-2012 3:53pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

I'm not sure as you haven't quoted anything, but I think you may be talking to me here? I'm not actually offended, I just was interested in debating this with you as it is clear we have very different ideas of what motivates sexual orientation. IMO it is a biological motivation. My body works in such a way that I am sexually attracted to men. In your argument, it seemed to me that you were saying a possible motivation for me being heterosexual was a psychological one i.e. I *may* have chosen to incline more towards heterosexuality as a preferred orientation due to psychological and societal pressures. IMO this would question my sexuality. Your stance would be that really I'm bisexual, and I have only chosen heterosexuality. In the same way, a homosexual would choose it. I contend this. I would like you to enter back into the debate, after all the point of this thread is to debate the question. Apologies if my earlier post seemed aggressive or offended you in any way.

Not at all, I just don't have time to as I should really be studying for my exams instead of engaging in such debates. I am really quite surprised to see such a huge response in contention with my opinion, so perhaps I am wrong, but it is not fair to settle on either opinion as being right at the moment without the acknowledgment that there is no real evidence to support either view.

Is being gay a choice

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