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Thoughts on bi-lingualism??

  • 17-09-2007 2:04pm
    #1
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭


    I posted this over at Sabre and thought it would go well here too.

    I took this pic awhile back for the Signage thread to discuss the style of gantry.

    IMG_5852.jpg

    Now the topic of bilingualism and how badly implemented it is has come up. Lets not fight here about whether bilingualism should exist, but how to fix the current clutter.

    My idea -

    IMG_5852b.jpg

    Thoughts??


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Ste.phen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    looks better to me, though might lead a person to believe that the right lanes are for 'GALWAY ENNIS', and not 2 seperate destinations


  • #3
    popebenny16
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,461 ✭✭✭popebenny16


    I'm always in two minds about bilingualism.





    I'll get me coat.............


  • #4
    jlang
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭jlang


    It may have been a better idea originally, but unless you're proposing to change all the signs in the country to gather the placenames by language, then location it's going to be even more confusing.


  • #5
    ucdperson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭ucdperson


    There are many many more serious issues with Irish signage than any problems caused by bilingualism.


  • #6
    Terrontress
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,903 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    I think it looks alot better than the current situation.

    Alot tidier.


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  • #7
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,034 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    I prefer the first one. Nice gantry by the way, they should implement that style on the M50 and the Naas road 3-laner instead of the current ones, which show the left lane as being for the turnoff only.


  • #8
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    I think mentally it's easier to think about it the current way.


  • #9
    Poxyshamrock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,859 ✭✭✭Poxyshamrock


    It looks like there's a place called "Galway Ennis" imo!


  • #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it's better to keep both names for a place together, as in the original photo.

    The scottish system of having differerent colours for the languages may be even better. (there's another thread somewhere on that)

    edit: here it is


  • #11
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    We could just extend the official boundaries of the Gaeltacht to cover the whole country. Then the problem would disappear. ;)


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  • #12
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,972 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    MathsManiac wrote:
    We could just extend the official boundaries of the Gaeltacht to cover the whole country. Then the problem would disappear. ;)

    When the special position of Irish in this country becomes untenable (number of fluent Irish speakers continues to drop, numbers of speakers of other not-so-advantaged languages rises further [population in Ireland speaking some of these languages must already be a multiple of the numbers of fluent Irish speakers]...) the "problem" will disappear.


  • #13
    Nuttzz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭Nuttzz


    fly_agaric wrote:
    When the special position of Irish in this country becomes untenable (number of fluent Irish speakers continues to drop, numbers of speakers of other not-so-advantaged languages rises further [population in Ireland speaking some of these languages must already be a multiple of the numbers of fluent Irish speakers]...) the "problem" will disappear.

    only to be replaced with polish :D


  • #14
    dermo88
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    Works fine in other multilingual countries. Belgium for example is one. Wales is another. You drive along the North Wales coast, and its pretty clear, Caergybi - HOLYHEAD, Mancunion - MANCHESTER, Caerdydd - CARDIFF.

    The dominant spoken language remains in Block capitals, or the regional language is in Block capitals. Its common sense after all.

    Dolanbakers suggestion looks attractive, different colours for different languages, but what happens in the likes of Switzerland (4 languages), parts of the Former Yugoslavia (Had it survived, you've got 3)......but then, different alphabets do help. Singapore.....(Well, they use English lah, but they do have 4 languages, 2 with the same alphabet), Thailand.....(if they used pure Thai signboards, you'd be screwed and blind), ......to name a few.


  • #15
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The handiest one must be in Arabian countries where signs are in English and Arabic - but because Arabic is read from right to left, the two speakers don't even have to look at the same part of the sign.


  • #16
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    I´ve no problem with Irish language signage in areas where that language is widely spoken, but in areas where english is predominant (ie. almost everywhere), I feel Irish is unneccessary, archaic and an unwelcome addition of clutter to our already awful signs.

    Not only in roads, but look at Dublin airport. Ireland´s gateway to the world, and no signs in any other European language except Irish, which hardly anyone speaks. It makes us look like idiots. But we´re not idiots. The people who design the signs are.


  • #17
    bill_ashmount
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭bill_ashmount


    The original looks better and easier to understand for me, although maybe that's just because that's what I'm used to.


  • #18
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    dermo88 wrote:
    You drive along the North Wales coast, and its pretty clear, Caergybi - HOLYHEAD, Mancunion - MANCHESTER, Caerdydd - CARDIFF.
    I've travelled the A55 many, many times and I can't say I've ever seen any places in England signposted with Welsh versions of their names, or maybe my built-in noise filter just filtered them out.


  • #19
    ucdperson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭ucdperson


    Since most of the place names originate in Irish why not just the rid of the meaningless pidgin English versions.

    As for Dublin airport the signs are in English which is the lingua franca of the world, you rarely see signs in airports other than in English and the local language(s).


  • #20
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Alun wrote:
    I've travelled the A55 many, many times and I can't say I've ever seen any places in England signposted with Welsh versions of their names, or maybe my built-in noise filter just filtered them out.
    You are correct. The places in England are signed in english only in Wales. Actually you are practicaly in England before any english destinations are mentioned. The M4 is the same you have to be over the Severn bridge before you see a sign with London on it.


  • #21
    Scoobydoobydoo
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭Scoobydoobydoo


    The first sign picture is a lot more clear to me.

    I wouldn't ever want the Irish removed, I prefer both English and Irish or else just Irish.


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  • #22
    monkey tennis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭monkey tennis


    I reckon the capitalization of the English name and the italicization of the Irish makes things fairly clear, although I'd prefer if the Irish was smaller, and using a different colour wouldn't be a bad idea. Might be interesting to print it in the old-school font with the dots for seimhiús etc as well - let's face it, the only reason it's there at all is for the poncey culture-philes, it's not as though anyone actually needs to be able to read it.


  • #23
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'm pretty sure Chester is signed in Welsh from within Wales. The welsh system is dreadul-same font, same colour for both languages.

    I'd actually be less opposed to dropping English language names from signs than keeping bilingualism if it meant clearing needless clutter from our signs, however I think it would be more practcal to drop the irish names in predominantly english speaking places. It may be pidgin english to some but to me it's my native tongue and I am glad about it. Not all names are derived from irish either-our capital city's name is derived from Norse, not irish.


  • #24
    jb91
    Closed Accounts Posts: 408 ✭✭jb91


    Was just reading your thoughts on confusing layouts of bilingual signs and thought that they could be corrected like this:

    397045938a5596214491l.jpg

    The green background that is currently used on road signs would remain. Place names would be written in English in white on a coloured background and then in Irish in the colour on a white background.

    Re airport signs, I noticed in the airport in Toulouse that signs are written in French in large white text and then English and Spanish in smaller text. Why shouldn't we do the same with English in large text and Irish and French/Polish in smaller text?


  • #25
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    I'd like to see the Gaelic script used on most signs, except on motorways, tolls and ports. Anyone who has a good grasp of Irish has no problems reading Gaelic script.

    The problem with having Gaelic in a different coloured font (like in Scotland) is that is costs more. Ireland has tens of thousands more Gaelic signs than Scotland and it would be difficult to implement on different coloured backgrounds. Monotone Fonts/Scrips are far cheaper than using different colours.

    Here's a few I did up in photoshop. Any thoughts?


    Motorways:
    motorway.jpg

    National routes
    national.jpg

    Mixed:
    mixed.jpg

    Tourism:
    tourist.jpg


    Gaeltacht:


    What idiot decided to have all the roads signs in the Gaeltacht in italics? It looks terrible and is difficult to read. The Gaeltacht signs should also be in English.

    gaeltacht.jpg


  • #26
    Richard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,439 ✭✭✭Richard


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote:
    I'd like to see the Gaelic script used on most signs, except on motorways, tolls and ports. Anyone who has a good grasp of Irish has no problems reading Gaelic script.

    But the point is - those of us who don't, have dificulties with the monolingual Gaeltacht signs. They are a mess. At least Dun Laoghaire is printed bigger so and it's also recognisable so it's easier to read!

    Also, Gaelic text looks twee - it should look modern, albeit different from the English text.


  • #27
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,850 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    I'd prefer if bi-lingualism was dropped - signs in English areas English, signs in Gealtachts Irish. Realistically, this isn't going to happen though.

    What I think is most readable is the Scottish system - Gaelic text in yellow on primary routes (it would be N-roads here), green on other roads (except motorways). This disambiguates perfectly, unlike the Welsh system where English and Welsh are in the same font.

    Scotland as yet has no bi-lingual signs on motorways so I don't know what they'd do in that case. Having just said I don't favour the Welsh system, I'm not sure what you would do with motorways given the rule that all signs are supposed to be white-on-blue.

    If keeping the present system is least worst, I would put monolingual signs in mixed case non italic - we're talking the likes of Port Laoise, Dun Laoghaire, and Gaeltacht signs here. Easier to read - I don't know of any other country that uses italics on such a widespread basis for road signs as Ireland.


  • #28
    parsi
    Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    Brittany uses them extensively and being from Ireland its easy to read them seeing as we're already used to dual names..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Road_signs_bilingual_Breton_in_Quimper.jpg


  • #29
    Red Alert
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Red Alert


    Irish is still the official language of Ireland.


  • #30
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Red Alert wrote:
    Irish is still the official language of Ireland.

    Why are we all communicating in english on this forum, then?

    Irish is a dead language. Get over it.


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  • #31
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    ucdperson wrote:
    As for Dublin airport the signs are in English which is the lingua franca of the world, you rarely see signs in airports other than in English and the local language(s).

    You rarely see signs in airports in languages that only a miniscule amount of people understand, let alone speak on a day to day basis. Cead mile failte? Hardly.

    And you´d think that, Dublin airport being one of the most "international" airports in the world, and Ireland being cosmopolitan and European and all that, that Ireland might actually make an effort to communicate with speakers of other languages and lingua francas, such as Spanish, German, French and Chinese.


  • #32
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Red Alert wrote:
    Irish is still the official language of Ireland.
    Easily changed if the will amongst our (predominantly) engish speaking parliament was there. It isn't of course, not yet anyway but as the other sacred cows are slaughtered, irish becomes more and more vulnerable.

    English is a great mongrel language, with far more expressive ability than most other languages, due to the massive vocabulary built up through extensive contact with other world cutures.

    It is the working language of the world, and of course the working language of Ireland.

    I have no beef with the irish language and have no beef with support, even financial support, for it from my taxes. I see it as a cultural part of this country that's worth preserving. I do not believe for one second that token irishisms like 'Gardai' and 'Bord Gais' or cluttering roadsigns with names 99% of people don't use/recognise is the way to promote the language. Spend the money wasted on such tokens in adult evening classes or in better teaching of the language at school.


  • #33
    ucdperson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭ucdperson


    I suppose its a bit like the wire barriers thread, motorbikes are a minority, so ignore them in road design, and sure this will probably ensure that they become even more of a minority, justifying your decision.


  • #34
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Metrobest wrote:
    You rarely see signs in airports in languages that only a miniscule amount of people understand, let alone speak on a day to day basis. Cead mile failte? Hardly.

    And you´d think that, Dublin airport being one of the most "international" airports in the world, and Ireland being cosmopolitan and European and all that, that Ireland might actually make an effort to communicate with speakers of other languages and lingua francas, such as Spanish, German, French and Chinese.

    I think you need to be clear what a lingua franca is, and the ones you list are not. Not entirely sure what benefit any of those languages would be anyway. More commonly airports and other public transport locations use international symbols which are far clearer.

    As for Irish well tbh if you dislike Irish so much just be honest about it rather than criticise people for wanting to see it used. As for the original question I see no problem with it, although if the Celtic script is used it needs to be a standard form rather than the older style.

    EDIT: In the main signage is so poor that any extra signage would be better, irrespective of whether it is bilingual or not.


  • #35
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    Richard wrote:
    But the point is - those of us who don't, have dificulties with the monolingual Gaeltacht signs. They are a mess. At least Dun Laoghaire is printed bigger so and it's also recognisable so it's easier to read!

    Yeah, that's why I have the Gaeltacht signs in English aswell.
    Metrobest wrote:
    Irish is a dead language. Get over it.

    Aww, you're just bitter because you can't speak it. An bpósfaidh tú mé? :p


  • #36
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote:
    I'd like to see the Gaelic script used on most signs, except on motorways, tolls and ports. Anyone who has a good grasp of Irish has no problems reading Gaelic script.

    The problem with having Gaelic in a different coloured font (like in Scotland) is that is costs more. Ireland has tens of thousands more Gaelic signs than Scotland and it would be difficult to implement on different coloured backgrounds. Monotone Fonts/Scrips are far cheaper than using different colours.

    Here's a few I did up in photoshop. Any thoughts?

    Personally as a non-Irish person, and therefore totally disinterested in the Irish place names, I find the Celtic script used on those example signs incredibly distracting. It takes my eye some considerable time to focus away from it and onto the English text. To my mind, the primary purpose of road signs is to be able to be read quickly and unambiguously while travelling at speed and these very definitely don't fit that bill. The Irish place names are nothing but a distraction in that font, and are far more easily ignored in the current italic font. Personally I think it just adds to the general clutter that is so typical of most Irish signage, and would be better removed altogether, but then it's not really up to me :)

    Waaaaaay back when (and I mean in the 50's) in the UK some considerable research was done into this aspect of signage, and they settled on the font they use there to this very day (motorway?), and which is a model of clarity and readability.


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  • #37
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Alun wrote:
    Waaaaaay back when (and I mean in the 50's) in the UK some considerable research was done into this aspect of signage, and they settled on the font they use there to this very day (motorway?), and which is a model of clarity and readability.
    They use Motorway (medium and heavy) on motorways only but the design classic we all immediately recognise on british roadsigns is Transport.

    We took these fonts and the basics of british road sign design and then proceeded to botch them up beyond belief.


  • #38
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    is_that_so wrote:
    I think you need to be clear what a lingua franca is, and the ones you list are not.
    How can french not be considered a Lingua Franca?! It is still the langauge of international diplomacy for heaven's sake!
    is_that_so wrote:
    As for Irish well tbh if you dislike Irish so much just be honest about it rather than criticise people for wanting to see it used.
    This is typical of the pro-irish langauge brigade I'm afriad. If anyone dares question its usefulness or ubiquity they are castigated as someone who dislikes the language? Why would anyone dislike any particular language?

    I would like to see mixed case Transport font used exactly as it was intended by Kinneir/Calvert for BOTH english and irish-in their respective areas only.

    [Aside]The examples given of road signs in Brittany raise questions-why don't the french sign all signs in France in this manner to cater for a very small proportion of people living off their west coast who speak this language daily?


  • #39
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    murphaph wrote:
    This is typical of the pro-irish langauge brigade I'm afriad. If anyone dares question its usefulness or ubiquity they are castigated as someone who dislikes the language? Why would anyone dislike any particular language?

    Yes I am pro Irish and I am honest enough to admit it. I simply asked the poster to be honest rather than sneer and use the usual anti-Irish throwaway clichés.


  • #40
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    murphaph wrote:
    [Aside]The examples given of road signs in Brittany raise questions-why don't the french sign all signs in France in this manner to cater for a very small proportion of people living off their west coast who speak this language daily?

    Irish people in Ireland: ethnic majority
    Breton people in France: ethnic minority

    Hardly a good comparison, murphaph.

    It's in the interest of ALL Irish people to preserve their native language at all costs. If Gaelic road signs help to promote the language, why would you want to do away with them?


  • #41
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    is_that_so wrote:
    Yes I am pro Irish and I am honest enough to admit it. I simply asked the poster to be honest rather than sneer and use the usual anti-Irish throwaway clichés.
    I'm 'pro-irish' too in a way. I don't mind the funding of meaningful irish language promotion programmes. I do mind the inclusion of very little used placenames on roadsigns in overwhelmingly english speaking parts of the land. The other poster has a similar view to me, so why is he anti-irish and I am not? Why can't he (and I) question the (over)use of the language on signage? Afterall-irish has dwindled in its usage despite its ubiquity on almost every form/sign/nameplate since 1921! It has patently failed as a method of language promotion and it's high time the (hardcore) irish language nazis realised that they way they've mistreated the language has alienated native english speakers for nigh on 90 years. Irish did better under the bould brits!


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  • #42
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote:
    Irish people in Ireland: ethnic majority
    Breton people in France: ethnic minority

    Hardly a good comparison, murphaph.

    It's in the interest of ALL Irish people to preserve their native language at all costs. If Gaelic road signs help to promote the language, why would you want to do away with them?
    What are you on about man? What makes a person enthnically 'irish' pray tell?

    How on earth can you claim that irish is the native language of ALL irish people? I know black irish citizens-is it their native language, for example?

    You are clutching at straws of course.

    In answer to your question-I do not believe for one second that a roadsign's purpose is or should be to promote a language! It should have 1 funtion: to convey information as quickly and simply as possible. This is not achieved by cluttering the signface with a language hardly anybody speaks and even those that do often don't know the irish names for places!


  • #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The use of Irish in general is a discussion for another forum; but if those who could, did!*
    We wouldn't be having this discussion as bi-lingual signs would be needed.





    *speak Irish.


  • #44
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    is_that_so wrote:
    I think you need to be clear what a lingua franca is, and the ones you list are not. Not entirely sure what benefit any of those languages would be anyway. More commonly airports and other public transport locations use international symbols which are far clearer.

    As for Irish well tbh if you dislike Irish so much just be honest about it rather than criticise people for wanting to see it used. As for the original question I see no problem with it, although if the Celtic script is used it needs to be a standard form rather than the older style.

    EDIT: In the main signage is so poor that any extra signage would be better, irrespective of whether it is bilingual or not.

    Travel in Latin America, Africa or Asia and you´ll soon realise that english is not the lingua franca of the world, my point is that it´s inappropriate to display a dead language right next to english in an international airport or on a motorway, as though these two langauges were somehow equally useful or important? How come immigrants don´t learn Irish? Because it´s no use to them.

    The Irish people choose with their brains and tongues to speak english because it´s the most useful langauge for them and Irish will never achieve the critical mass neccessary to make it a living langugage. All the bilingual motorway signs in the world won´t change that.

    I actually do dislike Irish as a language because linguistically speaking it´s a dead language, it doesn´t have the depth of vocabulary of english - many common words that we use day to day don´t have any translation in Irish. Why? Because the language is not spoken enough for these words to evolve, and let´s face it, it does tend to be spoken only in the country´s poorest, most rural and least, shall we say, urbane parts. Sorry if that offends you and your love of Irish but that´s how I feel about it and a lot of other people, if they are honest with themselves, feel the same way. If they didn´t, they´d be speaking Irish, wouldn´t they?


  • #45
    Navan Junction
    Closed Accounts Posts: 721 ✭✭✭Navan Junction


    murphaph wrote:
    it's high time the (hardcore) irish language nazis realised that they way they've mistreated the language
    Er, you could say the same thing in reverse about the English language Nazis on this island or does their part in the development of both languages on this island over the guts of a millenium not come into it?

    After all, the English language Nazis have been at their work for literally hundreds of years, and had a good head start on it - some of those that you might term Irish language Nazis only started their work in the late 1800's, and the enormity of the latter's task probably reflects the reality that Gaelic is not an economic language per se. Ie, you aren't likely to be able to use it in the global business world to the same degree as you could with English, which is effectively the global language of economics

    But it isn't all about money and economics is it? And the point to remember is that though some might not use or are unable to use the Gaelic version of the signs, it doesn't mean that nobody uses it.

    And lets be honest, at least with the Irish original names on the signs mean something, whilst the Anglicised versions are in the main gobledygook
    Metrobest wrote:
    I actually do dislike Irish as a language because linguistically speaking it´s a dead language, it doesn´t have the depth of vocabulary of english - many common words that we use day to day don´t have any translation in Irish. Why? Because the language is not spoken enough for these words to evolve, and let´s face it, it does tend to be spoken only in the country´s poorest, most rural and least, shall we say, urbane parts.
    You're a gas man Metrobest - that isn't true at all. Maybe your dictionary is out of date? The language is in trouble, but it isn't dead and it is most definitely not stuck in a time warp where it can't evolve

    In relation to where it's spoken, it migh surprise you that there are Gaelscoileanna all over the place, many across Dublin with kids that can speak Irish fluently from Monkstown to Tallaght and Clondalkin

    I'm a Dub (not living there now obviously) and as an example, I can't remember when I last got a text from my mother in English - the reason I use that as an example is more often than not she's texting me because she's done something to her computer, camera or scanner, or can't get something working - the most recent exchange I had with her was about getting an external hard drive for her computer

    I shouldn't have gotten sucked into this one again, so I'll just make those points and leave ye to it - this'll go on for ages!

    Before I do that you might take a look at this site - not very linguistically dead or challenged is it? And there a many more like it


  • #46
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    Metrobest wrote:
    many common words that we use day to day don´t have any translation in Irish.

    As you appear to be fluent enough to come to this conclusion, care to give us an example? Oh, but before you do, you might want to check that it isn't already in the dictionary http://www.focal.ie/Home.aspx
    Navan Junction wrote:
    And lets be honest, at least with the Irish original names on the signs mean something, whilst the Anglicised versions are in the main gobledygook

    This is exactly one of the resons I would never want Irish removed from road signs.


  • #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Going with that last comment why not just keep the Irish version and ammend the anglicised version to be a literal of the geilge version,

    Twenty years ago all the (greek)Cypriot signs were anglicised version of the greek name this has now changed and Limassol, has been replaced with Lemassos, Nickosea with Lefkosia, etc which is the literal of the Greek name.


  • #48
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    They may be gobbledygook (what a great word) but at least your average tourist/foreign visitor can readily pronounce them. Irish is straightforward in its pronunciation........only if you've been taught it. "Really dear, mh sounds like w".

    Again I say-many countries in Europe have tiny minority languages that once were much more prolific and have declined due to famine/war/occupation (I went out with a girl from Langedoc who speks Occitan-a much more widely spoken language than irish. Has anyone ever heard of it? Probably not. It is not an official language of France, nevermind the EU. The French don't put up national roadsigns in Occitan in Occitania, nevermind the rest of France.

    Germany has minority langauges in the east, Sorbian I think it's called is a 'big' one. The germans do put up the town name in Sorbian (and German) on the town's nameplate, but not on any direction signs.

    ........and what of the gobbledygook irish names for places that didn't exist with an irish name? Baile Bhlainseir anyone?


  • #49
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    There's several obvious piss takes out there too. For example, Queen Victoria Street was translated to "Sraid na Bhuaidhe" Victory Street. :p


  • #50
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote:
    There's several obvious piss takes out there too. For example, Queen Victoria Street was translated to "Sraid na Bhuaidhe" Victory Street. :p
    The joke is on whoever in their post colonial mindset decided to do it of course. Probably the same people who held us back as a nation for so many years after independence.

    Dolanbaker's idea is interesting-basically spell the irish placename with the roman alphabet but using englush language pronunciation rules so that the end result is spelled differently than the original irish names but sound the same.

    Well, I suppose it could work but irish has sounds that don't exist in the english language. You could closely approximate the sounds though......but that's what the british did originally.

    We are also conveniently forgetting that we have many lines of ancestry in our bastard nation. We are not some 'pure bred bunch of celts (whoever they were)' at all. We are descended from a plethora of invaders, none of which were native to this island! Should we insult our norse ancestors by removing Dubh Linn from the map?


  • #51
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote:
    As you appear to be fluent enough to come to this conclusion, care to give us an example? Oh, but before you do, you might want to check that it isn't already in the dictionary http://www.focal.ie/Home.aspx
    .

    Hmm... I think we need to chill out a bit. What´s the word for "Marijuana" in Irish? Níor aimsíodh téarma ar bith, said your web link.


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