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Road surfaces in Ireland (why do the councils use surface dressing?)

  • 21-07-2006 3:02pm
    #1
    Hoof Hearted
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭


    This something that bugs me quite a bit. On most non-national roads and many nationals too in Ireland they use surface dressing (bascially chips sprinkled on liquid bitumous).

    Among the arguments for using it I hear, one is that the cost of rolled asphalt is excessive. Other reasons include it has increased skid resistance. Now correct me if I'm wrong but tyre wear on these types of roads is at least twice that of asphalt roads. Hence while the council is saving money the motorist is paying more for tyre replacement. Collectively the excess amount spent on replacing tyres sooner is probably more than the councils save. Also these roads become very "shiny" when the chips eventually subside and then skid resistance gets worse. I won't even talk about loose chips.
    Large vehicles making sharp turning movements on these surfaces easily tear and scape up these surfaces.

    Roads with surface dressing have course road noise characteristic adding 9dB of noise to a car at 80km/ph compared to asphalt. This leaves a very low quality feel about those roads especially to potential investors and tourists visiting Ireland.
    Why when we are now in the 5 richest countries in the world are we still surfacing our roads the same way as in the 1980s when the country was broke.

    Do most of you on this forum agree that surface dressing should end as a road surfacing technique in Ireland and that rolled asphalt and other more modern road surfacing techniques be employed. I think it is time we should eliminate these "poor man's" road surfaces.

    Am I alone in this thinking or do others feel the same?

    Also does anybody defend the use of surface dressing?


Comments

  • #2
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I suspect if you were able to so a detailed search you'd find a few dozen threads touching on this topic. Surface dressing is a foul dark-ages practice which there is no justification for.

    Mike.


  • #3
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Theyve just tarred a few roads in Cobh with several inches of lovely, thick, proper tar. If they put surface dressing shingle crap down I'm going to scream. Leave it as it is, its perfect.


  • #4
    Hoof Hearted
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Hoof Hearted


    mike65 wrote:
    I suspect if you were able to so a detailed search you'd find a few dozen threads touching on this topic. Surface dressing is a foul dark-ages practice which there is no justification for.

    Mike.
    I did a quick search and the only related thread I found, was the one you contributed to in May of last year.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=261867

    One other fact I neglected to mention is that after one 26deg day pretty much all the surface dressing softens, effectively reducing its skid resistance as the chips sink into this thing they call a road surface making it as shiny as my old man's head.

    Also it is so sad when the council puts surface dressing over beautiful rolled asphalt. They don't do this in other part of the world outside of Ireland and the British Isles. You never hear about the skid resistance issue in relation to asphalt in the rest of the developed world.
    Ireland should be using the latest techniques in road surface design while we are in the process of restoring our roads. The surface dressing on many of our roads is the first bad impression I get of Ireland when I return from long trips in the States. I feel like I'm in Ecuador or Guatemala.


  • #5
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,486 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Hoof Hearted wrote:
    They don't do this in other part of the world outside of Ireland and the British Isles. You never hear about the skid resistance issue in relation to asphalt in the rest of the developed world.
    Funnily enough I came across some in Germany, quite literally only a few days ago. They call it Rollsplitt. It was admittedly on a rather minor road, but nevertheless they do use it sometimes.


  • #6
    Maskhadov
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    the noise in the car is simply horrendus... i hate this policy and wait for a sound reason why they carry out the mad practice.


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  • #7
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I raised the topic with my local councillor recently. The rather vague explanation was that because there's a public perception that surface-dressed roads give better grip, there is political pressure to be seen to do it.

    I asked him to go back to the county engineer and get an explanation for exactly how sprinkling gravel on a road is intended to improve grip. I'm still waiting.


  • #8
    daymobrew
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,523 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    Maybe ask the NRA's Project Manager of Road Safety or PM of Pavement Monitoring and Maintenance.
    oscarBravo wrote:
    I asked him to go back to the county engineer and get an explanation
    You might be better off contacting a road engineer directly. When I contact Fingal CoCo about proposed speed ramps I had a very informative discussion with a traffic engineer. I had to be a little persistent and patient while I was passed around different extensions to find the right person.


  • #9
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    mike65 wrote:
    Surface dressing is a foul dark-ages practice which there is no justification for.
    well what about that scene in "Cool Hand Luke" ?

    Melted tar is a curse if you are jogging or cycling, it rots bicycle tyres too.

    Not to mention the dreaded "Loose Chippings" and having to consider driving with one hand against the glass because of the speeders on the other side showering stones all over.


  • #10
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Does the hand against the glass work though? I've never used it....

    Mike.


  • #11
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    My understanding is that on a newly surfaced road, when there is sun oil can come to the surface and grip *can* be reduced. It seems that they put the chips down in order to reduce the possibility of lawsuits from people that have lost control on new surfaces before they have had time to season.

    MrP


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  • #12
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    mike65 wrote:
    Does the hand against the glass work though? I've never used it....

    Mike.
    or thumb, supposed to absorb the vibrations that cause crack propogation in glass, a bit like cutting a sheet of glass with sicssors underwater, I don't know how well it works, but it's something you can only do if you are driving very slowly on a straight road *

    * your hands get very wet though


  • #13
    Hoof Hearted
    Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭Hoof Hearted


    Capt'n Midnight wrote:
    or thumb, supposed to absorb the vibrations that cause crack propogation in glass, a bit like cutting a sheet of glass with sicssors underwater, I don't know how well it works, but it's something you can only do if you are driving very slowly on a straight road *

    * your hands get very wet though

    * I think you're suppose to place your hand on the inside of the glass Capt'n. Much more comfortable and drier.


  • #14
    Little Fecker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭Little Fecker


    I got this reply from the senior roads engineer at Kerry County Council,

    Brian

    The type of surfacing materials and why we dont use Asphalt on all our Roads is a commonly asked question. There are a number of reasons why Surface Dressing is still the most used riding surface.

    1. All Local Authorities must comply with national Guidelines developed by both the NRA and the DOEHLG in relation to Road

    construction depths and materials and surface finish which is the critical element as it provides skid resistance. The only surface

    finish acceptable on non urban roads is either surface dressing or asphalt in order to achieve the required Skid Resistance.

    2. Asphalt is a very rigid material and is not a suitable surfacing material unless the Road structure underneath is to a high standard

    and the underlying ground conditions are also good. For example Asphalt on a peat subgrade would not be a good design as the

    asphalt would crack when the Road would flex. As almost 30% of our Roads in Kerry are built on Peat subgrades you can

    immediately see the problem.

    3. We are in fact surfacing our National Primary and National Secondary roads in Kerry with Asphalt wherever ground conditions

    are suitable even though this product is not manufactured in the County and obviously this has financial implications due to

    haulage costs.

    4. As Asphalt is imported into the County pimarily from Clare and Cork there can be a significant time span between manufacture

    and laying and in cool weather the laying temp of the material may drop below the specified laying Temp. Consequently Asphalt

    can only be laid during the summer months when ambient Temps are relatively high or the material may break up.

    All road making materials have advantages and disadvantages and cost is certainly not the critical issue. I can assure you that Road surfacing is not as simple as it looks and in Kerry we assess all projects to determine the most suitable materials to use.

    You will I think see a greater use of Asphalt in the County where the Road structure and subgrade allow but surface dressing on clause 804 material or stabilised wetmix will continue on Local Roads for the foreseable future for the reasons outlined

    I trust the above clarifies the issue to some extent and if you require further info you can call me at 066/ 7183533

    Regards
    Paul Stack
    Sen Engineer Roads Dept


  • #15
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    It seems that they put the chips down in order to reduce the possibility of lawsuits from people that have lost control on new surfaces before they have had time to season.

    I know of a road in Co Cork that had a lovely smooth new rolled asphalt surface put down last summer. It was regraded to a proper camber, lined and cat eyed. It was perfect.

    Except for the (few) locals who had been driving that road at the same speed for the last however many years, and found that the reduced grip meant they found that they couldn't take the (slight) corners at the same speed as previously. Unfortunately, they found out by losing control of their cars, often with expensive consequences. No one was hurt fortunately. I should point out also that this was a stretch with an 80km limit over most of its length (50kmh the rest), a speed you could maintain quite comfortably and in no danger.

    'Concerned locals' then complained to the council about the dangerous new surface and started making noises about court action. The new surface was then covered over with a rough layer of tar and chippings. No accounting for taste.


  • #16
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Aidan1 wrote:
    I know of a road in Co Cork that had a lovely smooth new rolled asphalt surface put down last summer. It was regraded to a proper camber, lined and cat eyed. It was perfect.

    Except for the (few) locals who had been driving that road at the same speed for the last however many years, and found that the reduced grip meant they found that they couldn't take the (slight) corners at the same speed as previously. Unfortunately, they found out by losing control of their cars, often with expensive consequences. No one was hurt fortunately. I should point out also that this was a stretch with an 80km limit over most of its length (50kmh the rest), a speed you could maintain quite comfortably and in no danger.

    'Concerned locals' then complained to the council about the dangerous new surface and started making noises about court action. The new surface was then covered over with a rough layer of tar and chippings. No accounting for taste.

    slight corners?

    in a sort of unrelated question what are the factors of speed limits when applied to corners iykwim?


  • #17
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    'Slight' as in gentle. These were not hairpin bends, in other words.

    I don't even know if there are any precise factors for bends, sightlines or gradient when it comes to non national roads tbh.


  • #18
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,972 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    I've been encountering a rash a loose-chipping works since last week, clearly some sort of order has been given and its been thrown about in counties Waterford, Cork, Wexford, Carlow and Kilkenny.

    Mike.


  • #19
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    That letter from the County Engineer in Kerry was pretty accurate. Lots more information on surface dressing (and all highway paving types) to be found here. That site is a PITA to navigate but has a wealth of information contained within.


  • #20
    Maskhadov
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    well what they really should be doing is putting down solid foundations (those big boulder) really far down. That would solve any problems with peat or bog.


  • #21
    jd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    Maskhadov wrote:
    well what they really should be doing is putting down solid foundations (those big boulder) really far down. That would solve any problems with peat or bog.
    On existing roads?..There'd be war with the locals when the roads are closed, and the accountants when they see the project budget...


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  • #22
    Maskhadov
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭Maskhadov


    at least we would have decent roads to drive on.


  • #23
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I'm not a civil engineer, but I imagine building a road with deep sub base and asphalt is a hell of a lot heavier than a 'poor road' with surface dressing, hw long before this heavier road just sinks into the bog? These are genuine factors to consider. Not every road can have foundations down to bedrock-the costs would be astonomical.


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