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New UTV Broadband prices

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    #62
    PiE
    Registered Users Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭PiE


    Originally posted by jonski
    hence I will be at home tonight when Martin calls to try to run tests and help in anyway i can.

    Any news on that?


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    #63
    jonski
    Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    Originally posted by PiE
    Any news on that?

    Yeah ( was waiting for 24 to end before posting)

    anyways , before Martin called , about 8:50 I ran a ping tset and it wasn't great 60's/70's/80's and 1 or 2 even higher , with a pkt loss of 13% .

    Martin phoned sometime after 9 , he had been with or talking to an engineer and they had changed something . I ran the test and the pings seemed better , still a small bit of pkt loss . He phoned back again just before 10 and the pings were still holding steady around the 60/70 mark , no real sign of pkt loss . Said he will continue to monitor the situation and may phone back near the end of the week .

    It would be helpful to both me and UTV if other clicksilver gamers could post ping's and tracert's in the newsgroup . I'm fairly sure it would also help if they got an idea of just how many of us are having problems and where we are located .

    John.

    ps : This is the kind of customer service that made me sign up to UTVip , made me wait for them to bring out their b/b and makes me want to give them a chance to sort out the problem . Long may it continue .


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    #64
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    ps : This is the kind of customer service that made me sign up to UTVip , made me wait for them to bring out their b/b and makes me want to give them a chance to sort out the problem . Long may it continue .


    That may be so but why did it take from almost the inception of Clicksilver and a zillion pleas in the support group most of which were ignored to get any sort of response? that is not good customer service.

    Has the sudden response got anything to do with the launch of the new products the cynic in me asks?

    Meanwhile the proxy problem continues to be ignored and the response to the breaks at the weekend has been lamentable thats the kind of service that gives me serious reservations about another 12 month contract.


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    #65
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    I've signed up for this one (not exactly newsworthy I know). Definitely a waste of my time waiting for netsource to get honest and either drop the domain charge or include it in the price. I'm sure Esat will be sad to see me go with all the money they're making (cough) from me on NoLimits. At least I'll finally get to personally experience the day-counting to see how long it'll take for the big switcheroo.

    As someone who's typically in the vanguard of the second-wave adoption, the odds are good that this group will start signing up in the next short while (which brings a host of problems with it from the point of view of the provider but at least the money starts to roll in). After the price drops we're having, the time between now and the summer will be interesting from the providers' points of view.


    And obviously you'll all be pestered with my tales of delays from Eircom if they dare even think about it:) I could throw a stone from my flat in Limerick and almost hit the Eircom tower (most of the lights at the top of the building are off tonight for a change)


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    #66
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by dahamsta
    I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd like to see your facts and figures for this.
    I'm pretty sure Malcolm posted numbers to this effect sometime in the last couple of months, but I don't have the energy to go searching for the post.


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    #67
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Fair enough. I'll remain sceptical in the meantime.


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    #68
    MarVeL
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭MarVeL


    Good news it seems Jonski. What pings and tracerts are they looking for?


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    #69
    Scott Taunton
    Closed Accounts Posts: 52 ✭✭Scott Taunton


    Originally posted by dahamsta
    Fair enough. I'll remain sceptical in the meantime.

    Adam

    I am away currently but have been following with interest the debate which is taking place surrounding our new prices and the impact that these are having on existing subscribers.

    We have worked solidly, and swallowed hard in order to offer a broadband product for under EUR30, despite our having to purchase infrastructure on a wholesale basis from Eircom, Esat and Energis. Moreover, we are offering our existing customers the opportunity to move to the lower charges, at no cost. In return we are seeking a commitment from customers which helps us put in place additional services, infrastructure and most importantly, continue to drive competition in this market.

    I'm sure I'm not alone in having bought a mobile phone, only to find days later that a better package is available... A better phone, cheaper calls, more calls or texts. Despite my pleas, I'm not able to move to this new service - even if I offer to renew my 12 month contract. There are plently of other examples - Sky televison or healthcare to name a couple more.

    We're trying to thank our loyal customers by passing on these savings but our business model doesn't enable us to do that without certain constraints.

    In answer to your more direct question about the length of time it takes us to recoup the costs of service, let me set out a few fixed costs to help draw a picture:

    EUR24.32 Eircom Wholesale Rental charge (20.10+VAT)
    EUR72.60 Eircom Wholesale Setup charge (60+VAT)
    EUR72.60 Wholesale rate for modem, filters and delivery (60+VAT)

    So, in order to recover these costs alone over 12 months, we would need to charge EUR36.42 per month. When you add to this bandwidth (at around EUR200 per Mb per month), staffing, marketing, hardware, overheads... the list goes on, I hope that you can see that we're not looking to "rip off" any of our current or future customers.

    We're proud of our relationship with Boards and IOFFL and will always look to enhance our services, pricing and standards for the benefit of all. I regret that in this instance there are some of our customers who are displeased with the procedures we have employed. We are genuinely attempting to offer the best value for everyone within the bounds of business constraints and the Irish telecommunications environment in which we operate.

    I hope that this is of some assistance and taken in the tone of transparency in which it is intended.

    Kind regards

    Scott Taunton
    Managing Director
    UTV Internet


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    #70
    Emerson
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Emerson


    Originally posted by Scott Taunton
    ....When you add to this bandwidth (at around EUR200 per Mb per month).....

    That's expensive bandwidth!


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    #71
    Emerson
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Emerson


    EUR200 * 1000MB = EUR200,000

    So 16GB = EUR3,200,000


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    #72
    silent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭silent


    EUR24.32 Eircom Wholesale Rental charge (20.10+VAT)
    EUR72.60 Eircom Wholesale Setup charge (60+VAT)
    EUR72.60 Wholesale rate for modem, filters and delivery (60+VAT)

    correct me if I'm wrong but the second and third point do not apply to existing customers, especially to the 48:1 package as there is no intervention required (24:1 customers might cost you some costs I guess, yet still less than new ones). So existing customers get the same deal as new ones that cost you way more fixed costs.

    secondly, reduced wholesale rate is in effect from 1st March AFAIK so you benefit for one month yet all existing customers pay the old prices :rolleyes:

    finally - your comparisons to Sky/mobile network operators/healt insurance are flawed - if a new product is released that has the same specs and a lowered price every company moves their existing users to the new product. I have not seen in recent history such a bad deal for present customers in any industry. Yet you request a new 12 month contract? Yes, you are acting within the rights of the original contract but definitely it's not a sound business move, especially in the light of very recent and some still ongoing issues with your product.

    Do not forget that many people join due to word of mouth and I'm certain that there are many clicksilver users who in wake of recent events and this bad joke of a contract will choose to not recommend your product anymore.

    Edit: if there are some other costs that do not allow you to offer the new 30E price to existing customers (I'd like to hear what they are, no specific numbers necessary though), I think it would make very good sense to offer some compromise - 35-38E/m for the same service and the ability to stay on your current contract. Many including me simply refuse to sign up for another 12 months.


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    #73
    silent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭silent


    Originally posted by Emerson
    EUR200 * 1000MB = EUR200,000

    So 16GB = EUR3,200,000

    I'm sure Scott mentioned their cost for the IP traffic - a 1Mbit/s that costs them around 200E/m , of course they have more than 1Mbit I'm sure :)


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    #74
    dub45
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,448 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    In return we are seeking a commitment from customers which helps us put in place additional services, infrastructure and most importantly, continue to drive competition in this market.

    And what committments can Clicksilver customers expect in return service wise?

    The UTV service has deteriorated considerably in my direct experience since the inception of Clicksilver and I have posted exhaustively to this effect.

    At the weekend there were two breaks of three hours on Sat and Sun evenings for a lot of customers. UTV do not appear to have started looking at this until Monday morning and do not appear to have a clue about what caused them. They are currently under investigation! Good job they appear to have remedied themselves

    This is not the type of service that would be acceptable to Sky customers for instance seeing as you refer to them. Nor do Sky cusomers or mobile phone customers expect to have faults at weekends which the contractor does not even begin to address until the Monday morning. And then there is the ongoing proxy problem for which UTV offered the lamentable explanation that it was a client side issue. Can you imagine Sky in a similar situation expecting a signifciacnt number of their customers all reporting the same problem to believe that it was their tv that was not working properly?

    The pings problem has been there since the inception of Clicksilver and you are only choosing to address it now.

    There have been at least two major weekend breaks since the start of the year where service was unavailable for up to 12 hours. This is two more than any of the other ISP's have had as far as I am aware.

    UTV admitted that they had not sufficient resources in place last year. How they are going to deal with the extra pressure which this keen pricing will inevitably bring?

    Without the early Clicksilver customers who did not get any of the special offers there would be no clicksilver service now you are choosing to screw them simple as that.

    UTV are not doing any of us a favour they are in business to make a profit and this is the way they choose to compete in the market so 'swallowing hard'and all that sort of stuff is all in aid of UTV's ongong profits and is a businness choice which UTV make as part of their overall strategy. If the provision of broadband service was not profitable UTV would not be in the market.


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    #75
    daveyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭daveyjoe


    When I signed up for UTV, I did so under the assumption that if eircom decided to lower there Wholesale prices, then UTV would pass the savings onto their customers, without trying to scam all existing customers in the process.

    It's great news that you are offering a sub €30 product, but I would prefer that you charged more instead of making us sign a new contract. Even the scoundrels at IOL and Eircom aren't trying this trick.

    I'm in the situation now where I'll have to continue paying €47.50, because i'll be leaving for college next september and I am the only person who uses the internet in the house, so a 12 month contract just isn't feasible.

    On top of all this, my BB connection was down for at least 7 hours over the weekend and the pings situation needs sorting.

    Over the last month, my opinion of UTV has lowered dramatically.

    One last question why is there a €15 price difference between the two packages UTV are now offering, with IOL the price difference is only half that.


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    #76
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Hi Scott I've a slightly off topic question for you or anyone else in UTV.

    Has UTV put in place the procedure for transfering DSL customers from other companies (like Netsource) to UTV without disruption (or just a few minutes disruption)?

    If yes, how much does it cost a customer to move to UTV in this way (if the customer already has DSL, a modem and filters)?

    Thanks for your help and participation here on boards.


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    #77
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Originally posted by daveyjoe

    One last question why is there a €15 price difference between the two packages UTV are now offering, with IOL the price difference is only half that.

    Well in fairness both UTV products are still cheaper then IOL, so that isn't really a relevant question.


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    #78
    daveyjoe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭daveyjoe


    Originally posted by bk
    Well in fairness both UTV products are still cheaper then IOL, so that isn't really a relevant question.

    No UTV's 'plus' product is more expensive than IOL's (presumining they are both bundled with telephony).

    UTV plus: €45
    IOL plus: €39.95

    Anyway my question was... Why is there such a price difference between UTV's basic and 'plus package?

    edit: and with IOL you get a USB/Ethernet modem (that you actually own), and they throw in the Norton Security package thingy (handy).


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    #79
    ArthurG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,306 ✭✭✭ArthurG


    And what committments can Clicksilver customers expect in return service wise?

    The UTV service has deteriorated considerably in my direct experience since the inception of Clicksilver and I have posted exhaustively to this effect.

    Well said Dub45.


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    #80
    sceptre
    Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    To be slightly fair, that €39.95 is effectively a marketing price as you can't get the Plus product from Esat for that much unless you actually pay them a minimum of €64.95 a month. They also continue to own the modem according to their press release. It isn't as simple a matter as comparing with "telephony included" in this case
    (please correct me if I'm wrong)

    I've my own ideas about why the price gap is greater on UTV than IOL (they're mostly releated to cherry-picking as opposed to economies of scale[1]) but I'll post them later (in the unmetered evening) if there isn't an official answer


    [1]That makes it seem more complicated and accurate than my guess actually is by the way. Don't worry, as usual, it'll be a disjointed rambling paragraph that won't tell you anything you don't already know


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    #81
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Originally posted by daveyjoe
    No UTV's 'plus' product is more expensive than IOL's (presumining they are both bundled with telephony).

    UTV plus: €45
    IOL plus: €39.95

    But I wouldn't really consider IOL bundled with telephony the same as bundled with UTV telephony. It is a apples and oranges comparison.

    With Esat telephony you have to make a minimum of EUR25 calls a month. So the real cost of the IOL bundle is:

    €39.95 + €25 = €65

    With UTV telephony you don't have to actually use the phone at all if you don't want to, just like with Eircom. So I would consider UTV Plus more equivalent to IOL Plus Unbundled at €47 and Eircom at €54.


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    #82
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,516 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Originally posted by sceptre

    I've my own ideas about why the price gap is greater on UTV than IOL (they're mostly releated to cherry-picking as opposed to economies of scale[1]) but I'll post them later (in the unmetered evening) if there isn't an official answer

    I can guess what you are going to say.

    All the Plus products from all the companies are simply creaming in extra profit for little or nothing extra and at little or no extra cost to the companies.

    The port charge that Eircom charge is the same for both standard and plus products.

    I assume Eircom do charge more for the backhaul on 24:1 (I must check the docs), however this is optional and I asume Esat (and therefore by extension UTV) use it's own national infrastructure for backhaul. And Esat has loads of free backhaul, so it doesn't actually cost them anything extra. They are only making more use of what they already have and paid for.

    That only leaves the caps, they might have to pay a little bit more for international backhaul, due to the larger caps, but not much more really.

    So you see all the plus products don't actually cost the ISP's much more then the standard products.


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    #83
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by silent
    correct me if I'm wrong but the second and third point do not apply to existing customers,
    UTV are still paying off their investment in those existing customers. And that investment was spread over more than 12 months.

    UTV have already subsidised your entry to the Broadband market - why should they subsidise it any more when you've made it clear that you don't intend to allow them to recoup their initial investment? More to the point, why should they pass the cost of subsidise you on to their other customers, who do intend to stay with them?

    If you want eircoms terms and conditions, pay eircoms prices.


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    #84
    Valentia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭Valentia


    If you want eircoms terms and conditions, pay eircoms prices.

    Burp!!

    Ripwave, I've read your posts over and over and the logic still defies me. UTV got a 12 month contract That's all they asked for, even if it does take longer to recoup their costs.. Their margins are the same, or at least if they're not that's their decision, for the new €30 product. Any other company that I know of would just switch their customers as it's the same product. The decrease is mainly due to the drop in wholesale prices.

    Oops I'm repeating myself now.


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    #85
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Valentia
    Burp!!

    Ripwave, I've read your posts over and over and the logic still defies me. UTV got a 12 month contract That's all they asked for, even if it does take longer to recoup their costs..
    Because they make the assumption that most people won't change providers at the end of their contract. And most people therefore won't have a problem with starting a new 12 month contract in return for a 36% saving.

    The only people who are complaining are those who don't expect to stay with UTV. Now why should UTV invest even more in those customers?
    Their margins are the same, or at least if they're not that's their decision, for the new €30 product.
    The margins are the same based on a renewed 12 month contract!. If you don't like the idea of a new contract, fine, stay on your old contract. Certainly anyone who signed up in the last month or so, in the expectation of a lower price (as I recommended) would be stupid not to switch over. And the people who signed up 6 months or more ago, can't complain that they didn't expect to be paying €47.50 for twelve months when they signed up.
    Any other company that I know of would just switch their customers as it's the same product. The decrease is mainly due to the drop in wholesale prices.
    "Any other company you know of" wouldn't have given you DSL for €30 a month, would they?


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    #86
    silent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭silent


    The only people who are complaining are those who don't expect to stay with UTV. Now why should UTV invest even more in those customers?
    Don't make assumptions. Some are reluctant to sign a new 12 contract given the recent issues. Showing faith in their own product and keeping them onboard by providing a good service is apparently not an option. Would you want to do business with such a company that does not believe in itself and chooses to bind you by contract?

    At the very least I'd expect for the present customers to drop the price by at least the reduction in the wholesale rate. But I think UTV business model is rather built on getting masses of people by having the cheapest offering arround rather than keeping their present user base happy. :rolleyes:


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    #87
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Originally posted by Ripwave
    The only people who are complaining are those who don't expect to stay with UTV.
    Another ridiculous statement. Did I say I don't expect to stay with UTV? Did silent?

    adam


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    #88
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by silent
    Don't make assumptions.
    I'm not making assumptions. If you are planning to be a customer for the next 12 months, then you obviously wouldn't be complaining about having to sign up to a new 12 month contract, would you?

    The only people who are complaining about having to sign up for a new 12 month contract are those who aren't planning to be a customer for the next 12 months.


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    #89
    jonski
    Registered Users Posts: 6,389 ✭✭✭jonski


    Would I be right in saying that this conversation would be null and void if for some there wasn't a ping problem and for others there wasn't a proxy problem . I know for sure I wouldn't be posting here if my ping and pkt loss was ok , I would just move over to one of the new products , end of story .


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    #90
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    That's completely incorrect. I have every intention of staying with UTV, however I will be moving house shortly and this makes me disinclined to sign up for another 12 month contract, case-by-case or not. I pointed this out earlier in the thread. Moreover, people have every right to complain about feeling discriminated against, whether they choose to stay or not.

    You're just being disruptive now Ripwave, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop.

    adam


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    #91
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by dahamsta
    Another ridiculous statement. Did I say I don't expect to stay with UTV?
    You said that you've got to move in the next couple of months, and that you'd like to avoid extending your contract. Sure, you'll stay with UTV, if it's available to you when you move. But you want to keep your options open (presumably in case it's not possible to get Clicksilver in your new place).

    Note that I was very careful to not say that the only people complaining are those who plan to leave UTV. In your case it may well be due to circumstances beyond your control (and UTVs record on handling cases like yours is, by all accounts, pretty good). But they are still your circumstances, and it's still your choice. UTV have calculated their new prices based on a new 12 month contract. If they had priced it at €32 instead, with a rolling contract, it would have suited some people, and hurt everyone else.


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