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QUINN-an evaluation.

2

Comments

  • #52
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Summary of "the research":
    PROBLEMATIC PREDICTABILITY IN THE LEAVING CERTIFICATE EXAMINATION

    EXTERNAL EVALUATION BY OXFORD UNIVERSITY CENTRE EDUCATIONAL ASSESMENT

    One of the three key directions set out by the Minister in the Directions report was: A commitment to address any problematic predictability identified in an analysis of predictability in the Leaving Certificate examination. The SEC commissioned an independent external evaluation of predictability in Irish Leaving
    Certificate examinations by the Oxford University Centre for Educational Assessment (OUCEA), under the direction of Professor Jo-Anne Baird, Pearson Professor of Educational Assessment and Director of the OUCEA, and in collaboration with Queens University, Belfast. The evaluation was conducted in three phases: a literature review and analysis of media commentary on the Leaving Certificate examinations; research on examination materials in six
    subjects; Teachers and Learners research including surveys of Leaving certificate candidates in 2013 and fieldwork conducted in 17 representative schools across Ireland.

    REPORTING AND NEXT STEPS

    The research will be reported on in five documents – there will be an overall report, which will be supplemented by four working papers.

    The four working papers are complete and are being prepared for publication. The overall report is being finalised and is expected shortly. At that juncture, the SEC and NCCA will, as outlined in the joint HEA/NCCA report on Transitions or Transactions, develop proposals to address the issues identified through the research. A paper based on the deliberations of the SEC’s internal working group on predictability, Predictability in the Leaving Certificate Examination – An Exploration of Issues, will also be published at the same time as the external research report. While predictability in the Leaving Certificate examination is not emerging as a major issue of concern to the researchers, some elements of problematic predictability were identified. However, the research indicates that no subject was considered to be very problematically predictable overall by
    the subject specialists, the teachers or the students. Measures to address any problematic predictability identified will be carefully managed by the State Examinations Commission to ensure fairness to candidates in partnership with the Department of Education and Skills and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.

    Key Directions Update | Transition Reform Steering Group


  • #53
    seavill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭seavill


    You havnt answered my question to your last comment by posting that


  • #54
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    But there is predictability. In English LC-Always Irish poets and always a female poet. You heard it here first Dickinson or heaney are certs!

    However I do warn students that there is nothing to stop the SEC from changing that but I will bet anyone willing to take my money that Heaney or Dickinson will appear. 20 euro!

    BTW-didnt cover Emily and I always do 5 poets. I would never state the above in class.


  • #55
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    But there is predictability. In English LC-Always Irish poets and always a female poet. You heard it here first Dickinson or heaney are certs!

    However I do warn students that there is nothing to stop the SEC from changing that but I will bet anyone willing to take my money that Heaney or Dickinson will appear. 20 euro!

    BTW-didnt cover Emily and I always do 5 poets. I would never state the above in class.

    The first thing I thought of when I read your post was this

    plath-2.jpg

    Then again it was predicted she would show up in 2012 too. :D

    Predictions are definitely not guarantees


  • #56
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Did he really say that by needing hons maths to train for primary it would mean more male teachers???


  • #57
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    Needing a penis would be a better guarantee. Boys are too lazy for honours maths.


  • #58
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    He should be forced to resign, women don't do hons maths so if hons maths is made a requirement he hopes to reverse the "feminisation " of the profession.


  • #59
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Did he really say that by needing hons maths to train for primary it would mean more male teachers???

    Yes you are correct, he is an idiot.

    He also just said that we alllllll took him up wrong, and we're idiots.


  • #60
    cnn27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 53 ✭✭cnn27


    teacherhead wrote: »
    Boys are too lazy for honours maths.

    What an insightful and not-at-all sexist comment


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  • #61
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    Any way we can hear what he actually said?


  • #62
    space2ground1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭space2ground1


    Oh Quinn.. What'll we do with you.

    I'm a male teacher with an A in pass leaving cert maths and a degree in computer science. Does that make me acceptable to his highness?

    I do think the mismatch in female/male teachers isn't a good thing but this isn't the way to improve that. Its idiotic. Im privilaged to work with fantastic female primary teachers who know their stuff. As a father though, I'd still like my children to experience the positive influence of good male and female teachers. The balanced influence of both is important. Males and females are not the same, but that doesn't make either more suitable than the other.

    To influence the numbers by bringing in an honours maths rule just shows him to be utterly out of touch with reality.


  • #63
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Word of warning everyone about personal abuse please and sweeping comments. I know it was an exceptionally silly remark on his part but lets keep the debate sensible!


  • #64
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    space2ground1 wrote: »
    Oh Quinn.. What'll we do with you.

    I'm a male teacher with an A in pass leaving cert maths and a degree in computer science. Does that make me acceptable to his highness?

    I do think the mismatch in female/male teachers isn't a good thing but this isn't the way to improve that. Its idiotic. Im privilaged to work with fantastic female primary teachers who know their stuff. As a father though, I'd still like my children to experience the positive influence of good male and female teachers. The balanced influence of both is important. Males and females are not the same, but that doesn't make either more suitable than the other.

    To influence the numbers by bringing in an honours maths rule just shows him to be utterly out of touch with reality.


    Too true. Boys outnumber girls doing honours maths at the moment. Bringing in the rule still won't encourage them to go teaching. It might exclude some girls, and also some boys from applying if they are doing ordinary level.

    No more than changing the requirements for home economics and nursing would result in more male applicants or more female applicants in engineering if changes were made there.


  • #65
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    Is there a recording of his remarks that I could access - does anyone know?

    I do think that having a minimum of hons Irish, hons Maths and hons English in your leaving cert should be a requirement for Primary teachers, assuming you have no other higher qualifications in these subjects.

    As to evening out the male/female balance, he'd be better to increase the salary.


  • #66
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    The funny thing is that I would have supported him if he hadn't tried to link it to gender??! I do think that if we expect HL English and Irish for Primary teaching then we should have the same minimum requirement for maths but why in the name of all thats holy does he think it would improve gender balance??!


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  • #67
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Too true. Boys outnumber girls doing honours maths at the moment. Bringing in the rule still won't encourage them to go teaching. It might exclude some girls, and also some boys from applying if they are doing ordinary level.

    No more than changing the requirements for home economics and nursing would result in more male applicants or more female applicants in engineering if changes were made there.
    Primary teaching used to be an honorable and respected profession for men when only men taught in boys' schools and women in girls' schools. Why do you think this has changed?


  • #68
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    My reading of it is that many female students who intend to become Primary teachers chose not to take Higher Maths as it is not required. I agree with the above poster that Irish/English/Maths should all have been at Higher Level. Therefore, the explicit intention is not to adjust a gender ratio, but to prevent capable prospective teachers from choosing Ordinary Level because Higher isn't required.


  • #69
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Should be interesting to hear if hook has anything to add at 4:30... I dont think hes a strong fan of Ruairi.


  • #70
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    Pwpane wrote: »
    Any way we can hear what he actually said?

    It's on most hourly news bulletins


  • #71
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    Inspector Coptoor wrote: »
    It's on most hourly news bulletins
    Any recordings of his comments that I've been able to hear make no connection between doing hons maths and improving gender balance? However the recordings stop just as he's about to explain his comments so I don't know.

    From what I can hear, he made a connection between a highly feminised teaching force and the necessity to make hons maths a prerequisite for entry to teaching. It seems that he figures that girls need to be forced to take honours maths whereas boys don't. Is he wrong?

    Or did people hear the word 'feminised' as 'feminist'? It seems Sheila Nunan did.


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  • #72
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Pwpane wrote: »
    Any recordings of his comments that I've been able to hear make no connection between doing hons maths and improving gender balance? However the recordings stop just as he's about to explain his comments so I don't know.

    From what I can hear, he made a connection between a highly feminised teaching force and the necessity to make hons maths a prerequisite for entry to teaching. It seems that he figures that girls need to be forced to take honours maths whereas boys don't. Is he wrong?

    Or did people hear the word 'feminised' as 'feminist'? It seems Sheila Nunan did.

    First he said feminised then he dug a deaper whole by saying highly feminised


  • #73
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    He may have phrased it badly, but does anyone not think that there is a huge imbalance? I think that a much more even gender-balance would improve the standing of primary teaching and be to the benefit of children - the stereotype that the role of a woman is to deal with children when they're young is being encouraged.


  • #74
    Pwpane
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭Pwpane


    Armelodie wrote: »
    First he said feminised then he dug a deaper whole by saying highly feminised
    But it is highly feminised!

    I don't get the connection between it's being highly feminised and the proposed requirement for hons maths, but I don't get the objection to that description either.


  • #75
    Barr125
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Barr125


    Mr Pseudonym wrote: »
    He may have phrased it badly, but does anyone not think that there is a huge imbalance? I think that a much more even gender-balance would improve the standing of primary teaching and be to the benefit of children - the stereotype that the role of a woman is to deal with children when they're young is being encouraged.

    I agree that he phrased it badly AND that there is a huge imbalance in male:female teachers. I myself am on my way to my PME in Trinity next year and when discussing the option with my careers Councillor, she explicitly pointed out the fact that a) I wanted to teach Hon Maths and Sci and b) that I was a male would be a definite help.

    What thrown me into a rage were the comments made by a teacher(?) after Quinn's comments shown on the 6.01 News. "Sisters unite"? "Boy with honors maths lead the country to ruination"? (slight paraphrase there) I'm sorry, as a male who took honors maths and am looking to enter this profession, I would kindly like to inform this mature, self-righteous female teacher to take her comments and insert them. :pac:


  • #76
    clunked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭clunked


    Barr125 wrote: »
    What thrown me into a rage were the comments made by a teacher(?) after Quinn's comments shown on the 6.01 News. "Sisters unite"? "Boy with honors maths lead the country to ruination"? (slight paraphrase there) I'm sorry, as a male who took honors maths and am looking to enter this profession, I would kindly like to inform this mature, self-righteous female teacher to take her comments and insert them. :pac:
    That was the General secretary of the INTO.


  • #77
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    clunked wrote: »
    That was the General secretary of the INTO.

    ...ie the union representing primary school teachers.


  • #78
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Pwpane wrote: »
    Primary teaching used to be an honorable and respected profession for men when only men taught in boys' schools and women in girls' schools. Why do you think this has changed?
    There you go, many men choose to go into jobs where there is a prospect of promotion. Primary teaching certainly does not have this, the only real promotion is to principal, where you might not actually teach at all.


  • #79
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    How about the highly masculised dáil eireann ruairi?

    Ok ok so there is a gender inequality in teaching, big news story there. And don't forget the evil church ruairi.. And school uniforms?

    Are these the most pressing issues in education at the moment?

    It's class sizes ruairi.. Pure and simple. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.


  • #80
    Mr Pseudonym
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,237 ✭✭✭Mr Pseudonym


    Armelodie wrote: »
    How about the highly masculised dáil eireann ruairi?

    Quotas have been introduced in an attempt to combat that. Only a fool would argue that the current balance in the Dail is either positive or irrelevant.


  • #81
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    Quinn knows that he needs the support of secondary teachers to have the JCSA assessment system implemented. If they still don't implement it then the Department would have to introduce an alternative assessment system because leaving JC pupils with no form of assessment by the time they finish third year would mean that the Department would be as much a target for parents' anger as the teachers' unions would be, i.e. "a plague on both your houses".


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  • #82
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    endakenny wrote: »
    Quinn knows that he needs the support of secondary teachers to have the JCSA assessment system implemented. If they still don't implement it then the Department would have to introduce an alternative assessment system because leaving JC pupils with no form of assessment by the time they finish third year would mean that the Department would be as much a target for parents' anger as the teachers' unions would be, i.e. "a plague on both your houses".

    He has over a year and a half to curry good favour.


  • #83
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    No , I don't think he has, I'd say next re-shuffle isn't far away and that's him gone.


  • #84
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    No , I don't think he has, I'd say next re-shuffle isn't far away and that's him gone.

    Naa i'd say they ll let him finish the train wreck he started. Whod do it anyway ? Who's going to be the Martin Sheen to take out the Marlon Brando of education?


  • #85
    Ambersky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    It is argued that professions with more women in them tend to be given both lower status and lower wages. What causes this has been the subject of much debate on questions like do women get into professions and men get out as the status of the profession is in decline or does the entrance of women into a profession bring about that decline.
    So maybe Mr Quinn would like to adopt the strategy of improving the status and salary of teachers in order to get more men into the profession. Has he thought of that as a positive intervention.
    It is discouraging that there is so much inertia in the system, so that employers’ assignment of lower relative wages to women’s work decades ago has such staying power. Without active policy intervention, the relative wages of female occupations will never reach parity with those of comparable—but different—male jobs.
    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.genderbias.net%2Fdocs%2Fresources%2Fguideline%2FDoes%2520bad%2520pay%2520cause%2520occupations%2520to%2520feminize%2C%2520Does%2520feminization%2520reduce%2520pay%2C%2520and%2520How%2520can%2520we%2520tell%2520with%2520longitudinal.pdf&ei=IvZWU-TPDKTY7AbGlICQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEi2lMSxhQJMU6cnm6mGeQonftNSg


  • #86
    teacherhead
    Closed Accounts Posts: 666 ✭✭✭teacherhead


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Naa i'd say they ll let him finish the train wreck he started. Whod do it anyway ? Who's going to be the Martin Sheen to take out the Marlon Brando of education?

    It'll be like health before hes done, .... Angola as cowen said


  • #87
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    He has over a year and a half to curry good favour.

    i don't think 18 months is enough time for RQ to put something in place to make teachers forget the destruction he has brought to the Irish education system in the last 3 years.


  • #88
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,505 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    http://johnkilleagh.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/the-ministers-real-speech/


  • #89
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,505 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    Ruari Quinn is making an announcement at 12 today from the Dail Plinth. Strange. could he be walking?


  • #90
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Well he is The Minister of Announcements according to TUI President Craughwell!


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  • #91
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭doc_17


    He's gone


  • #92
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    I hope he's not going to say "I've done the state some service" othello stuff.

    Anyway good luck to him..leave the keys on the table on the way out..


  • #93
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    He's gone!


    Don't let the door hit you in the bum on the way out.


  • #94
    doc_17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,972 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Extremely arrogant this past while and insular


  • #95
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Would a 'woop, woop' be considered inappropriate on this forum?:D


  • #96
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Would a 'woop, woop' be considered inappropriate on this forum?:D

    Nope


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  • #97
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    Ruari Quinn is making an announcement at 12 today from the Dail Plinth. Strange. could he be walking?

    Before he is pushed. Hasn't his departure been touted for months?


  • #98
    whiteandlight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    He was so wrong in his approach to many issues. There is so much he could have done without the pomp but ignoring reports and advice from the ncca and other related parties did him in for me


  • #99
    MrJones1973
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭MrJones1973


    The entire teaching movement needs to grow a pair now. We can really battle NEW JC with its chief architect gone. Get off your knees and say no no no. No compromises-we dont correct our own students work for terminal exam purposes. You give in on that you might as well kiss goodbye to having a decent career.

    You got to feel for him though. It will be tough living on 100k a year. At one stage he was a pensioner in his 40s after Rainbow coalition. I didnt object to everything -he was right on school patronage and literacy but JC was a disaster. When he said he wanted cameras in classrooms-I knew he was nuts.


  • #100
    endakenny
    Closed Accounts Posts: 956 ✭✭✭endakenny


    http://www.thejournal.ie/ruairi-quinn-resigns-1549754-Jul2014/

    "Live at Oriel" said:
    This man has dismantled the counselling system in our schools by taking away the ex quota status of guidance counsellors in schools.Nearly 200 counsellors have lost their jobs while more schools have seen counsellors hours cut to shreds.This has put the mental health of our young people at grave risk.

    I am skeptical on the issue of whether or not the cut in career guidance is as bad as it appears to be. The counsellors didn't lose their jobs; they simply have to take some classes in ordinary subjects. If it is a large school, the counsellor might not have to take these classes. For example, my alma mater has approximately 500 pupils. Its counsellor, a long-serving member of staff who taught Irish and French before she became a counsellor, is also a year head and teachers SPHE but doesn't have classes in Irish or French because, as she said, she wouldn't have the time for doing so.


  • #101
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    endakenny wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/ruairi-quinn-resigns-1549754-Jul2014/

    "Live at Oriel" said:



    I am skeptical on the issue of whether or not the cut in career guidance is as bad as it appears to be. The counsellors didn't lose their jobs; they simply have to take some classes in ordinary subjects. If it is a large school, the counsellor might not have to take these classes. For example, my alma mater has approximately 500 pupils. Its counsellor, a long-serving member of staff who taught Irish and French before she became a counsellor, is also a year head and teachers SPHE but doesn't have classes in Irish or French because, as she said, she wouldn't have the time for doing so.


    In a school of 500 pupils 22 hours ( a full post) was allocated for career guidance. This allocation was separate to the teaching allocation of the school. In a school smaller than that hours were allocated on a pro rata basis. These hours were cut from school's allocations in the budget a couple of years ago. If the school continued to give her 22 hours for guidance and didn't give her any Irish and French classes when the cuts came in, those hours were taken from the teaching allocation and there was a cut elsewhere on the timetable. She may not have lost out, but a part time teacher possibly lost hours as a result, or 4 Irish classes of 22-23 are now 3 classes of 30 etc.


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