UPC trials Horizon Wi-Free service in Limerick

bk · 24-01-2014 3:24pm

bealtine wrote: »

because someone else does it and it's a terrible idea we must do it too?

Does...not...compute

No, the point is lots of other companies have done it and I've seen very few complaints about it over on other forums (UK and Dutch).

People seem to really like the service abroad. In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

oscarBravo · 24-01-2014 3:32pm

bk wrote: »

No, the point is lots of other companies have done it and I've seen very few complaints about it over on other forums (UK and Dutch).

People seem to really like the service abroad. In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

I guess we'll see. The cynic in me looks at it this way: we have a dynamic in this country which isn't present elsewhere, and that's the fact that mobile data is crippled by being sold as a home broadband product. This makes using a mobile phone to get online a much more hit-and-miss experience than in other countries, which makes the idea of a free WiFi service more attractive, which in turn explains why most of my experiences with free WiFi have been pretty appalling.

Again: we'll see.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 3:47pm

bk wrote: »

In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

Well the jury is out on that...we'll see, the theory says it's not a good idea the security "nutter" in me says it's a bad idea...the convenience for a few is is not outweighed by my concerns so we'll have to examine the implementation and see how the UPC routers deal with it...

But under no circumstances are random strangers borrowing my scarce wifi bandwidth, it's bad enough already jiggling channels and now having a uncontrollable SSID on the same channel...

I tend slightly towards the "it's all marketing view" with few if any benefits for the owner of the router

bk · 24-01-2014 4:07pm

Well then just opt out.

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us will simply enjoy the benefits.

I'm sure UPC wouldn't roll this out if it had a big, noticeable negative impact on customers as that would only lead to a large number of complaints to CS. Something they are always trying to avoid.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 4:27pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us will simply enjoy the benefits.

We've been over this

WIFI is a scarce resource already and sharing it with a weak (distant) device is going to play havoc with the home users wifi connection but how it will affect the "home user" is yet to be seen...

QOS will have to be very carefully enforced too so somebody doesn't "download the internet" while connected to your AP

watty · 24-01-2014 8:47pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us saavy UPC customers will simply enjoy the benefits.

No, Anything like this should be Opt In, not Opt out.

Only some saavy UPC customers "on the go" Benefit.

Non-UPC neighbours or UPC neighbours opted out can be dramatically affected in dense areas / apartments.

UPC customers can be dramatically affected and not realise this is the cause. This is unfair exploitation of a scarce licence free resource purely to "look generous" but at little expense to UPC and potentially aggravation to customers and close non-customer or opted out neighbours.

I urge everyone to opt out and put the WiFi details on a piece of paper for trusted regular visitors/relatives that you are happy to share your Airpoint/WiFi with.

The UK BT scheme is also a bit daft but more limited as usually people have to pay.

WiFi isn't suitable technology to do this domestically, it's fine for a Hotel Lobby, Library or Cafe. Actually this is what Urban 4G is for.

Stealthirl · 25-01-2014 2:45am

Well i just got a mail from UPC with this mentioned in it.
Price increase of €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month
My broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March. [i was quite happy on 25Mb btw]

I have the Cisco epc3925 modem but have this connected to a Netgear N900 router for much better Wi-Fi range,speed and reliability.
I found with the Cisco that the range wouldn't even be to my hall door or kitchen so not very far where as the Netgear gets to the end of the driveway/back garden
So if i opt in my Wi-Fi from the Cisco would only be useful to someone within the house at best

Heres the E-Mail for anyone interested,as said it just stinks of marketing

Over the past 12 months, UPC has introduced superb new products to bring the best digital experience to our customers including Fibre Powered Horizon TV, superfast broadband and phone services. Through our network investments to date and our ongoing investments in programming, content and technology, we are focused on delivering quality and value for money to all of our customers. Due to increases in overall programming and operating costs, we will need to increase your monthly subscription. We are aware that any price adjustment is unwelcome so we have ensured that the increase is kept to the minimum possible. Details of this price change are outlined below.

Changes to your monthly subscription charges from March.
The change to the price of your UPC services, which is listed below, will be reflected in your bills from March 2014. Change to your subscription
Your price change €7.52 Inc. VAT per month
New Self-serve Discount* -€3.50 Inc. VAT per month
Total Change €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month

*As you are already registered for My UPC you will benefit from our new Self-serve Discount of €3.50 every month. We have transformed My UPC, adding lots of handy features to help you review your account and change your services. Remember you can access your account 24 hours a day, seven days a week to read and pay bills, change contact details with more control over your account. For more details on the improvements and benefits we’ve introduced click on the link below.

MORE INFORMATION

Telephone Rate Changes and Call Pack Improvements

Due to an increase in price from a number of service providers, the rates for some calls will change from 1 April. Please click the link below for details of these changes. Due to popular demand, from 1 April, we will be adding Spain to the list of 21 countries currently included in your Home Phone call pack.

MORE INFORMATION

Our services represent excellent value, however you do have the right to cancel or downgrade your service within 30 days of receipt of this notice without penalty if you choose not to accept these changes.

Additional Value
Your broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March.

We are rolling out a new free service called Horizon Wi-Free to our Broadband customers. You will hear more about this in an email from us in the coming week. If you choose not to participate in this service, visit the Horizon Wi-Free section in My UPC and select ‘opt out’ between 1 - 8 March to be excluded before it launches. You can also choose to opt-in or opt-out after the service launches.

To make sure you are getting the best value services we can provide, please visit www.upc.ie/myproducts to find out more. We would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your loyalty, you are a valued customer and we appreciate your support to date. Yours sincerely
Stephen Ruschitzko
Customer Care Director

cgarvey · 25-01-2014 3:51am

Rather than replying, I'll just say I'd assumed this would only be on twin-radio CPE. I'd assumed all recent routers were twin radio. I might be right in a sense (2.5 / 5GHz radios), but not in the context of it being a completely separate network. So that shaves off a lot of the gloss.

However, I think the WiFi interference is closer to a minor issue, rather than a major issue. The single biggest complaint is the pants range on UPC's stock CPE. If I stand in our driveway, I don't get any UPC WiFi signal, even though 2 of my 3 closest neighbours, and myself, have UPC (and its WiFi turned on). The pants Cisco boxes can't get to the other side of a wooden door, nevermind through the exterior walls!

It still solves the visitor issue, and could make a huge play in commercial installations (where WiFi interference is already a huge issue).

As for the security risk, you're trusting the Cisco firmware (aside from your hackable WiFi) as it stands. If you don't, then you should have your own firewall inside the network (which I definitely do!).

A "city wide" WiFi network it ain't (and certainly shouldn't be for the reasons above), but it'll probably be advertised as such. I'll be certainly partaking, if it ever sees the light of day.

watty · 25-01-2014 5:48pm

As for the security risk

Is only increased BETWEEN the Public Users in a car in the street etc... Not different for existing private user. But all Public WiFi have this. Which is why really for ANY public WiFi you should now use VPN*. HTTPS adds no security on a Cafe or Hotel where the WiFi provider has installed "man in the middle" attack, so at least more secure on HTTPS than <insert random public WiFi point>. Most email (virtually all POP3) uses plain text passwords.

The problem is that there is no scientific way to know ever how bad this turns out in practice, only will be under reported problems. But as with so called "White Space" Radio and many other RF scenarios you CAN model it and say it's a problem.

(* We set up a server at home to handle VPN on port 80 so that UL etc couldn't block it, then the VPN client was using the home ISP for email and Browsing. A pig to create the keys, but once setup just a click to connect on Window/OS X/Linux remote clients)

podgeandrodge · 02-03-2014 2:52pm

How does one "opt out" - I read their FAQ which said register and set a password and then click disable.

So I'm now enabled but can't see how to disable!

cgarvey · 02-03-2014 3:59pm

Not the forum for those sort of questions (but it's under My Products > Broadband > Wi-Free > Show full details, and if you have a password set, you'll see a button to change it, and a link under that button "Disable Horizon Wi-Free").

podgeandrodge · 02-03-2014 8:17pm

cgarvey wrote: »

Not the forum for those sort of questions (but it's under My Products > Broadband > Wi-Free > Show full details, and if you have a password set, you'll see a button to change it, and a link under that button "Disable Horizon Wi-Free").

thanks cgarvey, yeah I know it's not the forum but there were so many references to opting out I figured it was handy!

No button to "disable horizon wi-free" underneath the password change button unfortunately. Maybe because I am in Dublin and the service is only starting....but the opt out was supposed to be between 1st and 8th March.

cgarvey · 03-03-2014 4:02am

podgeandrodge wrote: »

No button to "disable horizon wi-free" underneath the password change button unfortunately

Sounds like you'll have to get on to UPC then (it's still there for me, and has been since I set the password on Fri).

GpmIrl · 07-03-2014 11:24am

Dublin customer - Notice received from UPC re new Horizon Wi-Free service which gave instructions for "opt out" in clear big print.

the website does not have a 'register' button within the area specified. They request you have to actively register in order to 'Disable Horizon Wi-Free'.
There is only further information which brings you to further screens none of which has any access to register. It loops you around.

Also the URL given for terms and conditions on both the printed notice and their website goes to a 404 Error - Pages not available.
This has to be in breech of Regulations!
They cannot impose a service on customers without the opt out option!
On trying for the third time getting login unavailable due to technical difficulties

Does anyone know what can be done to actually "disable or opt out"?

watty · 07-03-2014 2:00pm

Time to poke Comreg I think!

GpmIrl · 07-03-2014 10:53pm

I did exactly that today and requested that they confirm
1. they are aware of this
2. They are actively protecting out privacy and consumer rights

bealtine · 07-03-2014 11:08pm

GpmIrl wrote: »

I did exactly that today and requested that they confirm
1. they are aware of this
2. They are actively protecting out privacy and consumer rights

Who Comreg? protecting consumers? Comreg talking to UPC would be like being attacked by a dead sheep...

White Heart Loon · 07-03-2014 11:23pm

bealtine wrote: »

Who Comreg? protecting consumers? Comreg talking to UPC would be like being attacked by a dead sheep...

I've a vision of D'unbelievables Garda skit in my head "sure you can't be doing that lads"

Johnboy1951 · 27-04-2014 3:03pm

Stealthirl wrote: »

Well i just got a mail from UPC with this mentioned in it.
Price increase of €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month
My broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March. [i was quite happy on 25Mb btw]

I have the Cisco epc3925 modem but have this connected to a Netgear N900 router for much better Wi-Fi range,speed and reliability.
I found with the Cisco that the range wouldn't even be to my hall door or kitchen so not very far where as the Netgear gets to the end of the driveway/back garden
So if i opt in my Wi-Fi from the Cisco would only be useful to someone within the house at best

Heres the E-Mail for anyone interested,as said it just stinks of marketing

You seem to be in an ideal situation to enable the service ...... house guests only will be able to use it, and if they did, it would not interfere with your own WiFi on the other router .... and yet you will get access to the service while out roaming.

championc · 07-06-2014 12:12pm

Is there any sign of a Dublin rollout yet ?

How is it going so far in Limerick ?

BT began this years ago, allocating a fraction of peoples broadband for other users, when out an about, in order to make a giant wireless network. It seems BT FON / HomeHub is alligned now with many other countries meaning that if you have a BT account, you have wifi access in many countries abroad. Look at France for instance - http://maps.fon.com/

ItHurtsWhenIP · 14-07-2014 1:07pm

It seems that Comcast in the US have been pushing out something similar. This journo seems to have quite a few issues with the service:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/mobile-security/24073/comcast-xfinity-wifi-just-say-no?source=CTWNLE_nlt_networking_2014-07-02

I've read a fair bit of Mr. Horowitz over the years and he is pretty strict with his security set-up, so this article may seem a bit "fussy" to some people.

Johnboy1951 · 14-07-2014 3:09pm

MMFITWGDV wrote: »

It seems that Comcast in the US have been pushing out something similar. This journo seems to have quite a few issues with the service:
http://blogs.computerworld.com/mobile-security/24073/comcast-xfinity-wifi-just-say-no?source=CTWNLE_nlt_networking_2014-07-02

I've read a fair bit of Mr. Horowitz over the years and he is pretty strict with his security set-up, so this article may seem a bit "fussy".

Interesting read, thank you.

I would not regard his blog as 'fussy' regarding security of those Wifi connections.

ItHurtsWhenIP · 14-07-2014 3:28pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I would not regard his blog as 'fussy' regarding security of those Wifi connections.

I agree - he is quite correct to be careful given the lack of information from Comcast and also the blatant security lapses (automatic sign-on, etc.).

It's just that some people think his suggestions make life on the interweb unbearable. One example is that he goes out of his way to remove Flash from his main machine. I think he has a clean VM that he fires up to access material that requires Flash. It's a damned good idea, but just too much hassle for most people to implement.

zg3409 · 14-07-2014 5:48pm

While the article is informative and has some info, he has not actually checked what they are doing as is just guessing what they might be doing. It would have been better if he had actually tested to see how they were doing it, rather than say things like mac addresses can be spoofed which would not work in UPCs case anyway at least.

championc · 14-07-2014 8:18pm

I aas on my way home this evening, up through Harolds Cross and Rathgar and there was a load of "Horizon Wi-Free" Access Pojnts showing up. I tried to login with my username but no joy.

I have no idea if it has been on for weeks or just started but it looks like the rollout in Dublin is underway.

watty · 14-07-2014 8:47pm

Stupidity.

It's a marketing gimmick that hurts users more than helping. WiFi simply isn't a sensible platform for this kind of application.

championc · 14-07-2014 9:28pm

watty wrote: »

Stupidity.

It's a marketing gimmick that hurts users more than helping. WiFi simply isn't a sensible platform for this kind of application.

If everyone around me stays opted in, I reckon I'll be more or less fully covered by wifree access within a mile of my house. Plenty of UPC AP's around me

UPC trials Horizon Wi-Free service in Limerick

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