Behaviour at the ASTI conference and Pat King's response

linguist · 23-04-2014 1:48pm #1

There have been many dark days for teachers since 2008 and many reasons why real anger came to the fore at the teachers' conferences. Back in April 2009, up to 1,100 non-permanent teachers were looking at the loss of their jobs when the PTR was hit. I was one of them. More surreptitious changes to guidance, legacy posts for disadvantaged schools etc. meant that this real threat to teachers' livelihoods continued over the following years. Who could blame people faced with an imminent threat to their jobs for expressing their anger? And yet, over time, I have become increasingly embarrassed by the way the conferences have developed. Yesterday, when Minister Quinn sought, as requested, to give a lengthy presentation on his vision for junior cycle, things simply went too far.

Now we have Pat King, the general secretary and one of our own as a former classroom teacher, speak out about personal abuse of the worst kind and allege, rightly in my view, that our union is being infiltrated by elements which have no democratic legitimacy within its structures.

The fact is that the silencing of moderate voices in our ranks has been obvious for some time now. Those of us who are regulars on this site will recall the ballot on Haddington Road before Christmas. If you had looked to this forum for guidance, you would have expected a 'no' vote upwards of 90%. When I had the temerity to put forward the reasons why I would be voting 'yes', I felt the force of some of what Pat King is referring to. I am most grateful to those who defended my right to free speech at that time.

The simple fact is that whatever Ruairi Quinn said yesterday, he was still going to be responded to by Sally Maguire and, as always, he was going to remain in his seat for her speech. Ultimately, he will have to negotiate on JCSA. There is something very wrong with people who will not listen to the views of the Minister for Education and trust in their own leader to then articulate their views as Sally Maguire did very well. We take umbrage when people accuse us of behaving like children - yes, it is a low blow. What stuck in my head though was a comment that said that we are role models for the students. Now that indeed rings true and that is not what was seen yesterday.

'Fightback' is not a neutral word in today's Ireland. It is associated with the occasional violence we have seen on our streets. If these people want their own union they can have it, but I passionately believe that it is time for the rest of us to stand behind Pat King and reclaim our union as a body fit to represent the noble profession that we are.

Powerhouse · 23-04-2014 3:27pm

I would disagree with most of what you have written by and large because of the nuances of your comments rather than their content per se.

I think it is fair to say in principle that someone should be entitled to express their views without heckling but in fairness let's look at the context. We are talking about a politician who operates in a parliamentary environment where his colleagues in the Dáil have absolute privilege to heckle him and say anything they like. Quinn's skin will be more than thick enough to survive a few teachers heckling him. To have a Minister heckled or ignored at conferences (teacher conferences or otherwise) is hardly new either. Anyone embarrassed by this predictable and fairly consistently-occurring display of human nature should perhaps avert their gaze as they are easily embarrassed.

The great soft under-bellied middle-ground as exemplified by Pat King will always have greater numbers but it is no harm for the others to maybe let Quinn, the government, and the media know that there are people out there who will give a voice to those who have been badly treated I recent years.

I have great difficulty with woolly analysis such as 'we are role models for children' which seeks ultimately to quieten people and undermine their opinions. Why did people not point to this important aspect of our roles when they were promoting wage cuts, job cuts, diminution in working conditions, and, in the course of that campaign, criticising our holidays in recent years? I heard very little mention of the importance of our position as role models then? Not sure people can have it every way.

And I personally don't 'take umbrage when people accuse us of behaving like children'. I expect them to say things like that. That's all part of the cut and thrust as well. In fact I'd consider it a fairly weak and predictable riposte, about as meaningful as accusing people of 'fear of change' as the Minister frequently does - with its implication that 'change' and 'reform' is/are by definition good and somehow does not have to be justified.

Let's acknowledge something else that is important; Quinn was on the radio this morning being asked to explain why he thought teachers were so angry - and he was not being asked this question on foot of any Pat King speech. I am glad that the existence such anger has been communicated by the 'elements' in the union that you describe. As union members active enough and interested enough to attend such a conference I think they are entitled to express a view to a politician well used to such tactics himself. Let us not be cowed by the views of media commentators with little time for us. They will bring their verbal incontinence to bear on the RTÉ World Cup panel and then the cultural-cringe of the Rose of Tralee over the next few months, buzzing from issue to issue like flies choosing which cow****e to land on next. They will move quickly on to the next 'crisis'. Why should we give such people the power to influence what we think?

losullivan · 23-04-2014 3:51pm

As someone who is at the conference let me tell you that we have not been taken over by the dark forces! Members are angry and this anger was expressed by a clear majority of delegates yesterday. It was extremely dishonest of king to claim that the minister was heckled by a small group of 'extremists'. His behaviour in attacking Asti Fightback has been nothing short of bullying.There should be room for everyone in a truly democratic union. I am extremely dismayed with the lies being fed to the media by King.

linguist · 23-04-2014 3:57pm

Powerhouse, frankly, if you really think that what happened yesterday reflected well on teachers, we really are starting from different places.

An example of just how skewed your logic seems to be is your analysis of what it is to be a role model. Wage cuts, job cuts and the campaign of vilification you rightly refer to were not the doing of teachers and thus had no bearing on the professional image that we create for themselves. I would indeed argue that adults who publicly attack teachers or our profession set a very poor example for young people who are then expected to afford us respect in class.

If I am a role model for students, it is because I strive to behave as a responsible person and because I try to promote such behaviour on their part in return. It is do as I do not as I say. If a guest speaker visits the school and I have to reprimand a student for misbehaviour, I do it on the grounds that it is discourteous to be disrespectful to a guest and I would hope to explain that in a civilised society we can express our views in an appropriate manner at an appropriate juncture. I always defend their right to freely ask questions of the speaker afterwards, for example. My understanding is that the Minister was invited to 'address' the convention and in turn the custom is for him to listen to the President's response. We live in a representative democracy and it is not realistic for every person in the room to seek to take over proceedings whenever they so choose. The fact is that comparable professional unions do not meet in that kind of environment. In the court of public opinion, such scenes diminish our standing and detract from our message. We simply have to learn from this.

Powerhouse · 23-04-2014 4:23pm

linguist wrote: »

Powerhouse, frankly, if you really think that what happened yesterday reflected well on teachers, we really are starting from different places.

An example of just how skewed your logic seems to be is your analysis of what it is to be a role model. Wage cuts, job cuts and the campaign of vilification you rightly refer to were not the doing of teachers and thus had no bearing on the professional image that we create for themselves. I would indeed argue that adults who publicly attack teachers or our profession set a very poor example for young people who are then expected to afford us respect in class.

If I am a role model for students, it is because I strive to behave as a responsible person and because I try to promote such behaviour on their part in return. It is do as I do not as I say. If a guest speaker visits the school and I have to reprimand a student for misbehaviour, I do it on the grounds that it is discourteous to be disrespectful to a guest and I would hope to explain that in a civilised society we can express our views in an appropriate manner at an appropriate juncture. I always defend their right to freely ask questions of the speaker afterwards, for example. My understanding is that the Minister was invited to 'address' the convention and in turn the custom is for him to listen to the President's response. We live in a representative democracy and it is not realistic for every person in the room to seek to take over proceedings whenever they so choose. The fact is that comparable professional unions do not meet in that kind of environment. In the court of public opinion, such scenes diminish our standing and detract from our message. We simply have to learn from this.

I never said it 'reflected well on teachers' - that's for others to decide upon. I merely said I did not find it in any way embarrassing. This is what happens in such situations. Any anyway, what in reality does 'reflecting well on teachers' actually mean? You are talking about public opinion and that, as I have intimated, is as fickle as can be. Next week it'll be an irrelevance to most people while teachers will still live with the fruits of Quinn's handiwork.

Let's not get carried away with this 'role model' stuff either. Hardly any of my students will know the conference is on never mind be driven to a life of anarchy as a result of them. Don't, absurdly, confuse a union conference with the value-transmission that goes on in school classrooms as a matter of course. You have swallowed the 'role model' comment hook, line and sinker and this is informing your consequent attempts at untenable comparisons which lack perspective.

Finally, if you seriously think that a comparison between someone giving a talk in a school and taking questions afterwards and a situation where a government Minister is addressing a union conference is realistic we really are starting from different places indeed. Such conferences very often feature robust exchanges. Not all that long ago one Minster for Education didn't even have the bottle to attend the conferences which says all we need to know about what the average Minister would be expecting. They would know they were not addressing the local TY class.

You are not promoting a 'civilised society'. You are promoting a quiescent one where the little people know their place. That's what people in power rely on. Many people who have achieved positive things in society were at one stage seen as marginal cranks whose behaviour was rejected by their more 'civilised' betters.

2011abc · 23-04-2014 6:17pm

There was nothing 'noble' about the antics of the General Secretary and his inner circle of cronies the week of the ill fated 'emergency' CEC meeting(or when they were 'on tour' promoting a yes vote) .I find his 'crocodile tears' since sickeningly hypocritical .You are completely wrong linguist in my opinion .The ASTI attacked ASTI Fightback on their own website and banned anyone associated with the group from posting on their Facebook page .They were the last hope for teachers in this country and sadly I feel that despite the trojan efforts of a small core of supporters they have been defeated .God help us in the coming years -we know what is to come by looking at UK/USA systems ....On another thread here a young irish teacher speaks of working in an english school where one out of eleven teachers in a subject department have been there more than twelve months .Burnout rates will be horrific.
Pat King bullied ?!What a joke(on his 140k -plus perks-which at one stage an ASTI Gen.Sec. was notoriously LIVING on !) -its the poor NQTs working in McDonalds/SuperValu etc I feel sorry for .

2011abc · 23-04-2014 6:21pm

Maybe read a more balanced report here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/senior-asti-offical-alleges-he-was-bullied-on-union-website-1.1771249

Pat King is going a bit far now even by his standards with the sympathy vote attempts -party political motivation indeed-sure wasnt/isnt he blatantly supporting the government ?
Clearly he wanted to 'get his retaliation in first ' knowing that if there was an iota of justice he would have been sent packing by the members this week ...

katiecork · 23-04-2014 7:03pm

Our students first teachers are their parents. These are the people who watched the news and read the papers/forums. These are the people who see our
behaviour as childish and unprofessional. These people have a direct effect on their children's attitude to education-not us. What some people have lost sight of is our public loss of respect has been achieved by ourselves. Yes we are right to protest against what has been said but not by drowning out via megaphone or calling on us sisters to unite! We are a highly educated group of people. Why don't we act like it. Our representatives at Union level are pathetic negotiators who have little transparency and much more of a political agenda than is healthy for our profession. RQuinn is a misogynistic pseudo labour minister who really showed his true colours over the past couple of days. Unfortunately by the delegates response to his opinions so did we.

endakenny · 23-04-2014 7:37pm

2011abc wrote: »

There was nothing 'noble' about the antics of the General Secretary and his inner circle of cronies the week of the ill fated 'emergency' CEC meeting(or when they were 'on tour' promoting a yes vote) .I find his 'crocodile tears' since sickeningly hypocritical .You are completely wrong linguist in my opinion .The ASTI attacked ASTI Fightback on their own website and banned anyone associated with the group from posting on their Facebook page .They were the last hope for teachers in this country and sadly I feel that despite the trojan efforts of a small core of supporters they have been defeated .God help us in the coming years -we know what is to come by looking at UK/USA systems ....On another thread here a young irish teacher speaks of working in an english school where one out of eleven teachers in a subject department have been there more than twelve months .Burnout rates will be horrific.
Pat King bullied ?!What a joke(on his 140k -plus perks-which at one stage an ASTI Gen.Sec. was notoriously LIVING on !) -its the poor NQTs working in McDonalds/SuperValu etc I feel sorry for .

It's not over yet. If the unions refuse to implement the JC assessment then the Department would have to devise alternative assessment because leaving JC pupils without an exam at the end of third year would make parents just as angry at the Department as at the unions i.e. "a plague on both your houses".

Furthermore, if there are retaliatory measures taken against teachers by the Department then they can pull the plug on the CPA/HRA hours and withdraw co-operation from inspectors. Sometimes, soft power is better than full-scale action, i.e. strike.

evolving_doors · 23-04-2014 10:25pm

I'm delighted RTE gave the ASTI Fightback crowd (of which I have no affiliation) a right to reply on the news at 9... they also showed the paltry level of applause for Pat King at the end of his speech.

Look..
Enda Kenny got disgusting stuff around the time of the Abortion debate.
Alan Shatter got antisemitic mail during his stint.
Pat King got dogs abuse too.

This is wrong... but it still doesn't make their positions anymore 'right'.

I think the tide is turning on public opinion. And it's all thanks to that numpty with the megaphone (and RQ's idiotic comments too!).

amacca · 23-04-2014 10:33pm

Just want to say…..well said Powerhouse. 2 great posts.

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 10:44pm

That opening post is complete nonsense.

Have your union - The ASTI and Pat King are useless.

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 10:51pm

What is occurring here is the difference between the older and younger members in the ASTI.

The older, permanent, top-of-the-scale, mortgage paid, post holder members are fine. Sure they've had a few cuts - but their lives are nothing compared to their younger counterparts. They don't raise their voices in the union because they're meek and when someone else does they adopt a holier than thou attitude.

Then you have the younger, non permanent (don't know if they'll have a job . . some may lose their jobs), bottom of the scale (or on a lower pay scale), up to their necks in negative equity and debt with no post members. These people are extremely ANGRY and are STRUGGLING.

The likes of Pat King and the former group of ASTI members couldn't give a toss about them.

Sir Chops · 23-04-2014 10:56pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What is occurring here is the difference between the older and younger members in the ASTI.

The older, permanent, top-of-the-scale, mortgage paid, post holder members are fine. Sure they've had a few cuts - but their lives are nothing compared to their younger counterparts. They don't raise their voices in the union because they're meek and when someone else does they adopt a holier than thou attitude.

Then you have the younger, non permanent (don't know if they'll have a job . . some may lose their jobs), bottom of the scale (or on a lower pay scale), up to their necks in negative equity and debt with no post members. These people are extremely ANGRY and are STRUGGLING.

The likes of Pat King and the former group of ASTI members couldn't give a toss about them.

What has negative equity got to do with anything ?

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 11:01pm

Sir Chops wrote: »

What has negative equity got to do with anything ?

Many of these workers are living in small, cramped apartments and cannot raise families as they cannot move on. . . . I would have thought that was obvious.

teacherhead · 23-04-2014 11:03pm

Sir Chops wrote: »

What has negative equity got to do with anything ?

It's simply where people find themselves. Stuck in jobs that aRe part time at best, on a lower payscale, and basically struggling to get by.

It's not particular to teachers, but it is an issue.

2011abc · 23-04-2014 11:14pm

Its actually crazy how the status of teachers has plummetted in the last decade or so and its still in freefall .All as a result of our polite acceptance of successive crippling blows to us .Its long past time to get angry .
A few days all out strike would soon remind people of our contribution to society so vastly taken for granted .
Whether or not the public despise us the gutter press of William Martin Murphy's successors will continue to circulate stories of 'widespread' discontent with us ...

Be angry for the unemployed teacher forced to emigrate , the teacher who after a lifetime of loyal service dares to be seriously ill for more than a year or two and is left crippled financially as well as physically and emotionally ,the teachers who wont be able to afford to send their own kids to college , the teacher living in poverty ... who cant afford healthcare ...For God's sake be angry !Fair play to those who got angry at convention .

Sir Chops · 23-04-2014 11:20pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Many of these workers are living in small, cramped apartments and cannot raise families as they cannot move on. . . . I would have thought that was obvious.

That's patently untrue. If they are non-permanent then they won't have gotten a mortgage to get into negative equity . . . I would have thought that was obvious

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 11:22pm

The reality is that the ASTI will capitulate on their directives regarding the JCSA - like they did so on Haddington Road.

King deliberately campaigned for a YES vote even though CEC had recommended a NO and he wonders why some despise him?

When the JCSA comes in you'll up to till midnight every night working. . . . Make no mistake about that. And you won't get a cent for it.

Today another interesting event happened - Quinn informed PLC teachers that they're on notice to work in the summer at the TUI conference.

The TUI President, Gerard Craughwell, told Matt Cooper that he couldn't comment yet on that. . . As the Minister gave him no notice.

After JCSA is introduced there'll be no state exams for 3rd years in June. . . . No prizes for guessing what's going to happen then.

Of course if anyone raises an objection the usual muppets will get all offended.

Pwpane · 23-04-2014 11:33pm

Peter Flynt wrote: »

What is occurring here is the difference between the older and younger members in the ASTI.

The older, permanent, top-of-the-scale, mortgage paid, post holder members are fine. Sure they've had a few cuts - but their lives are nothing compared to their younger counterparts. They don't raise their voices in the union because they're meek and when someone else does they adopt a holier than thou attitude.

Then you have the younger, non permanent (don't know if they'll have a job . . some may lose their jobs), bottom of the scale (or on a lower pay scale), up to their necks in negative equity and debt with no post members. These people are extremely ANGRY and are STRUGGLING.

The likes of Pat King and the former group of ASTI members couldn't give a toss about them.

Peter, that's unfair and untrue.

I'm an older permanent teacher and I'm angry! I have raised my voice, I have voted and I have marched - as all my generation have. Many younger teachers have never raised their voices, have never voted or marched and many have never even joined the union.

Yes, there is a difference between those who are interested in their profession, who watch developments and take part in those developments - and the milk-and-water brigade who just want to keep the head down and take what comes from their 'betters'. But these are in all age groups. I think the teaching profession may have more than our fair share of this group as the 'good' student rises by being acquiescent.

I know you're angry about what has happened. But it started quite a while ago, quite a while before the recession, when teachers lost their nerve during the last industrial action. That's when teachers decided that it was more important to be nice than to defend their profession. We're paying for it since, and will continue to do so.

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 11:47pm

Pwpane wrote: »

Peter, that's unfair and untrue.

I'm an older permanent teacher and I'm angry! I have raised my voice, I have voted and I have marched - as all my generation have. Many younger teachers have never raised their voices, have never voted or marched and many have never even joined the union.

Yes, there is a difference between those who are interested in their profession, who watch developments and take part in those developments - and the milk-and-water brigade who just want to keep the head down and take what comes from their 'betters'. But these are in all age groups. I think the teaching profession may have more than our fair share of this group as the 'good' student rises by being acquiescent.

I know you're angry about what has happened. But it started quite a while ago, quite a while before the recession, when teachers lost their nerve during the last industrial action. That's when teachers decided that it was more important to be nice than to defend their profession. We're paying for it since, and will continue to do so.

I accept that. I was general in my comments but I still stand by them.

Younger members can also be less likely to join unions. Many are scared of losing the few hours they've got and don't want to rock the boat anywhere.

The profession is screwed.

Aboutime · 23-04-2014 11:50pm

Would be worth taking a look at the ASTI fightback page on Facebook.
I've just done that,and it seems the life style they like us to think they have,isn't quite what it seems.
I've looked through a LOT of their profiles,and life looks pretty good on there.
Smoked salmon socialists.
Imagine having megaphone mouth as your child's teacher!
His lack of judgement in doing what he did,would be of major concern to me if he was my kids teacher.
And yes teachers do,regularly mention their political views.
If it's THAT bad,how come there are so many applying for places on teacher training courses?

byhookorbycrook · 23-04-2014 11:50pm

For a lot of the "good years" my (1980)grads were nearly the youngest at union meetings. Once things went belly up, turn out became higher and younger. We are "the union" and if people want a voice, they need to start going to meetings and standing together.

byhookorbycrook · 23-04-2014 11:52pm

Aboutime wrote: »

Imagine having megaphone mouth as your child's teacher!
His lack of judgement in doing what he did,would be of major concern to me if he was my kids teacher..

Really, why?

Peter Flynt · 23-04-2014 11:53pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

For a lot of the "good years" my (1980)grads were nearly the youngest at union meetings. Once things went belly up, turn out became higher and younger. We are "the union" and if people want a voice, they need to start going to meetings and standing together.

I left the ASTI.

Got sick of the circus.

Aboutime · 24-04-2014 12:01am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Really, why?

His lack of self control..His lack of manners to an invited guest..his disrespect for others in the room..his problem solving skills.
Thankfully, he wouldn't get away with that in a classroom..oh wait........

Pwpane · 24-04-2014 12:04am

Aboutime wrote: »

His lack of self control..His lack of manners to an invited guest..his disrespect for others in the room..his problem solving skills.
Thankfully, he wouldn't get away with that in a classroom..oh wait........

It wasn't in a classroom. What are you on about?

ytareh · 24-04-2014 12:08am

Aboutime wrote: »

Would be worth taking a look at the ASTI fightback page on Facebook.
I've just done that,and it seems the life style they like us to think they have,isn't quite what it seems.
I've looked through a LOT of their profiles,and life looks pretty good on there.
Smoked salmon socialists.
Imagine having megaphone mouth as your child's teacher!
His lack of judgement in doing what he did,would be of major concern to me if he was my kids teacher.
And yes teachers do,regularly mention their political views.
If it's THAT bad,how come there are so many applying for places on teacher training courses?

Self confessed Facebook stalker !

Aboutime · 24-04-2014 12:10am

Pwpane wrote: »

It wasn't in a classroom. What are you on about?

Really ,wow,I didn't realise that .thanks for the heads up!( that's sarcasm ,just in case )
Perhaps read my words first " IF that megamouth was my child's teacher I would be concerned" ..and then went on to help you understand what I was saying ,when you asked why,by clarifying the reason why,which I will repeat.because of his lack of judgment,his lack of manners,etc..
Hope that's clear for you now.

Sir Chops · 24-04-2014 12:10am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Really, why?

Anger issues most likely.

Aboutime · 24-04-2014 12:10am

ytareh wrote: »

Self confessed Facebook stalker !

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Behaviour at the ASTI conference and Pat King's response

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