UPC trials Horizon Wi-Free service in Limerick

bealtine · 17-01-2014 6:28pm #1

http://www.techcentral.ie/upc-trials-horizon-wi-free-service-in-limerick/

I can only foresee tears in this one...

Fogmatic · 18-01-2014 3:04pm

I don't understand what this will add.
I'd assumed that most people with home networks already make them available to trusted visitors, e.g. friends & relatives? (And who'll carry the can for other people accessing any "content they really want to see"?)

cgarvey · 18-01-2014 3:35pm

Pros:
+ I (as a customer) can go to the house of a friend/relative/friend-of-a-friend/etc., and just connect. No need to ask for password, no hunting for the password, no finding the modem to look at the sticker for the default password, etc.

+ If it works (big if), it'll create a huge customer WiFi network. Many houses will leak WiFi, so you don't have to be in someone's house. A step up from parking outside the neighbour's unprotected WiFi, if you like!

Cons:
+ Legal responsibility. If UPC insist on initial device registration / validation and are happy to track/log all those connections, then it could work. If not, then this is doomed.

watty · 18-01-2014 10:07pm

This is stupid.

What cgarvey says ^^^^^ and other issues too.

Lemo · 21-01-2014 5:29pm

Anyone know how it works in practice? Presumably it's not just an open wifi so I have to identify myself somehow as a UPC customer either with my upc.ie login or an app on the phone?

Does it really mean that I can then access a wifi hotspot in some stranger's house while sitting on their garden wall? And vice versa for my own hotspot (assuming I don't opt out)?

Would it be WPS?

Tzardine · 21-01-2014 5:34pm

Why dont they fix the well documented issues with the bloody Horizon box before they do anything else.

The could start with the rubbish UI

Lemo · 21-01-2014 5:39pm

Ha! I'm still on the old digital box. Not interested in paying them the install fee to "upgrade" to Horizon. Besides, walking across the room to reboot the old box every evening gives me some exercise. Or, more often, encourages me to make more use of my Netflix subscription :-)

bk · 22-01-2014 10:57am

Actually this could be a bit of a revolution in the telco market!

Bear with me for a moment.

I believe this is based on the Hotspot 2.0 (Wifi Passpoint) Spec. Basically you most first register your mobile/tablet/laptop in your home BB network. It will then allow you to seamlessly connect to any other UPC wifi point that you happen to come across.

Of course only pre-registered devices will be able to connect and authenticate with a remote Wifi point. So of course there won't be any issues with legal responsibility, UPC will be tracking all of that.

It will also use a totally separate Bandwidth and virtual path from the Horizon box, so the home user should never even notice that it is being used.

What is the benefit of this, well if you ever check wifi in the city center you will often see dozens of UPC wifi networks. You will be able to connect to these automatically when you are out and about (e.g. at a coffee shop) and use your tablet/laptop even if it doesn't have 3G.

They also plan on activating this across the whole of Europe and offering free data roaming. So you will be able to connect to Virgin Media in the UK or in other UPC markets.

It is rumoured that UPC will be launching their own mobile network via a MVNO deal with Three this year. They will be able to offload a massive amount of the data from these mobile devices to their UPC network where available. Thus allowing them to offer cheaper pricing.

Basically UPC will be activating a whole new massive mobile network.

China Mobile has already done this and has managed to offload 75% of the data off their 3G network and onto the wifi/wired network and made big cost savings.

I expect Eircom and Vodafone will do the same with their Hotspots. In time they might all even allow roaming across each others networks, thus creating an almost seamless wifi network (at least in Urban areas) that would allow for very cheap and very fast mobile services.

Personally I actually see this as a very exciting, game changing development.

bealtine · 22-01-2014 12:59pm

bk wrote: »

Actually this could be a bit of a revolution in the telco market!

It will also use a totally separate Bandwidth and virtual path from the Horizon box, so the home user should never even notice that it is being used.

Interesting when you put it like that...

But I do not want my network visible to the outside world and based on the "security" that UPC have done to date I wouldn't want my router (either DSL or cable) visible at all...
If UPC supply the bandwidth and allow the users to decide to let their router participate then fair enough.

But, based on my interactions with UPC they don't fill me with confidence that they can do this successfully without compromising security which will lead to the tears I mentioned above:)

bk · 22-01-2014 1:36pm

bealtine wrote: »

If UPC supply the bandwidth and allow the users to decide to let their router participate then fair enough.

They do, you can opt out of it.

But then if you do opt out, you can't make use of the service yourself, which is pretty fair IMO.

UPC are clearly over provisioning the service, they currently sell 200mb/s BB, but their modems are actually capable of 400mb/s and they are currently selling 250mb/s BB to business users.

homer911 · 22-01-2014 2:09pm

What if my SSID is hidden?

What if I am currently using MAC controls?

What if I am using an alternative DNS Server such as OpenDNS with content filtering?

Will we need a new router?

How come UPC have removed the press releases on this topic from their website?

How come there is nothing on the UPC website about this at the moment?

bk · 22-01-2014 2:18pm

homer911 wrote: »

What if my SSID is hidden?

What if I am currently using MAC controls?

What if I am using an alternative DNS Server such as OpenDNS with content filtering?

Will we need a new router?

How come UPC have removed the press releases on this topic from their website?

How come there is nothing on the UPC website about this at the moment?

When active, it creates a completely separate wifi point, with it's own, unhidden SSID and where your mac controls and different DNS make no difference.

It is a completely separate from your network and settings.

So far I believe this only works on the new Horizon boxes, not on their routers. Don't know if they plan on changing this in future.

I'd guess there is nothing about it on the website because currently it is under trial and not generally released.

bk · 22-01-2014 3:22pm

This has already been officially launched by UPC Netherlands, you can find lots of info on how it works and is setup here:

http://www.upc.nl/klantenservice/internet/wifi-spots/

Use Google Translate.

It confirms everything I said above. You most first register your mobile devices on your home UPC network, by logging into the My UPC website and from then on it will automatically connect and authenticate with any UPC Wifi Spot you happen to pass.

Using the service is optional and you can opt-out, but then you can't use it either.

It creates a separate wifi network on your router called UPC Wifispots, which is totally separate from your wifi network and settings. You can't see what is on this network and vice versa.

watty · 22-01-2014 10:44pm

Marketing. It's not really adding very much.

jca · 22-01-2014 10:53pm

watty wrote: »

Marketing. It's not really adding very much.

It is. It's adding UPC high speed hotspots all over the city. A very clever way of taking the load off mobile networks too.

cgarvey · 23-01-2014 11:34am

watty wrote: »

Marketing. It's not really adding very much.

It is, if as reported by BK, IMO. I'll certainly use it. Gone are the days when I go to someone's house, reset their password, and then field support calls for a few weeks "what was that new password, again?".

It won't be a city-wide WiFi network (in that the horizon boxes won't leak outside the house all that much), but it will certainly help with visitors. Or, even, visitors next door!

bk · 23-01-2014 12:46pm

It will also help greatly if you are in the city center or other high density location.

I look forward to being able to use my tablet and iPad that don't have 3G while in the city center. I also look forward to be able to do data roaming in the UK and across Europe.

BTW looks like it will be rolled out to all UPC routers, not just the Horizon box.

White Heart Loon · 23-01-2014 1:12pm

Fcuk that, no way I'd want another wireless device hanging off my WiFi, even when I'm not using it. Wireless is limited to the number of consecutive connections, so therefore I'd allow only my own devices. Devices connected will pass traffic some traffic, receive broadcasts and arp, even when they are doing nothing, so just having devices connected doing nothing can affect things. A crazy idea.

watty · 23-01-2014 2:43pm

jca wrote: »

It is. It's adding UPC high speed hotspots all over the city. A very clever way of taking the load off mobile networks too.

There is EXTREMELY limited WiFi Spectrum. It will reduce WiFi speed (even for people NOT on UPC!) and provide Hotspots for a minority of UPC users only.

On balance there is little benefit. It's to encourage people to join UPC, i.e. Marketing.

The Majority of UPC customers are NOT located where you need an arbitrary hotspot. It's no big deal to permanently add another WiFi definition to your gadget or laptop if visiting a friend or relative regularly that is happy to share and you don't need to be a UPC customer.

Of course if EVERY gadget & Device and WiFi had a short range IR port (or even flashing LED on Access point and simple photo sensor on gadget) for key exchange, then setting up a new Access on your gadget would be trivial.

This is essentially adding an extra Access point to every UPC customer that agrees. There are really only 3 x 2.4GHz channels (54 to 108Mbps) or 1 channel (250Mbps), there are really only 11 approx channels at 11Mbps! Wireless N on 5.8GHz can use up the entire allocation too.

You can't get extra WiFi connections without reducing existing bandwidth.

There are two ways to do it:
1) A really separate WiFi set. No impact if there are local spare channels. Often there isn't. If there is separate Hardware (two WiFi Wireless Sets) and spare spectrum then you see little impact on speed. If there is no empty channels then the speed reduction can be 1/2 to 1/20th

OR
2) A logical Infrastructure Airpoint that shares the same WiFi Hardware and channel, This still uses up bandwidth even when no-one connects as the one WiFi Hardware takes turns to broadcast for Users SSID and the UPC "Public to UPC signed up customers" SSID. A poor signal to the "public" user can slow your existing speed to 1/10th rather than 1/2 if the users are equally using it.

Approach (2) is just firmware and can in theory be done on ANY WiFi point securely. Both approaches the two SSIDs have completely separate settings and can't see each others traffic (unless you know the code). What if someone else also connects to the "public" connection? With suitable tools they can easily sniff content of other "Public" traffic unless UPC is creating a different SSID & logical Airpoint for each "Public" user.

Sniffing the UPC customer's private traffic in theory is harder if the settings are correct.

This is a Marketing concept, not sensible engineering.

bk · 24-01-2014 11:53am

watty wrote: »

This is a Marketing concept, not sensible engineering.

Watty, I normally agree with you, but in this case I disagree strongly.

Yes, there is only limited wifi spectrum, but the amount of wifi spectrum is far, far greater then 3G/4G spectrum, so this greatly increases the amount of wireless spectrum available to a user.

I also disagree that it will only have a small coverage. Just do a wifi search on your phone in Dublin City Center and you will find that it is almost fully covered by UPC wifi points. And pretty much the same in any built up urban area.

This will be fantastic for those of us with mobile devices, but without 3G/4G who want to use them while out and about. It will be much easier to find a wifi point now to use.

In time I expect Eircom and Vodafone to do the same and perhaps they will even come up with a roaming agreement between them all. That would create an incredibly dense wireless network, with far more capacity then 3G/4G.

It is basically the first steps of bringing to reality the dream of very dense picocell network.

This launched a few months ago in UPC Netherlands and reading the forums there (with Google translate) so far people seem to be extremely happy with it. Very have noticed any problems and many are finding very high degrees of coverage across their urban locations.

Personally I think it is a very good use of resources. After all, most people very rarely max out the full speed of their 120mb/s UPC connection or even the max speed of their wifi bandwidth. We might download a big file here or there, but most of the time, most people are doing low bandwidth things like surfing, facebook, email, etc. most of the time. Even Netflix and youtube are pretty low bandwidth compared to the bandwidth available with UPC and wifi.

So giving up a little bit of bandwidth and making more intensive use of it, in exchanges for greater mobility and convenience is something I think most people will welcome.

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Either way it is happening.

cgarvey · 24-01-2014 11:54am

White Heart Loon wrote: »

Fcuk that, no way I'd want another wireless device hanging off my WiFi, even when I'm not using it. Wireless is limited to the number of consecutive connections, so therefore I'd allow only my own devices. Devices connected will pass traffic some traffic, receive broadcasts and arp, even when they are doing nothing, so just having devices connected doing nothing can affect things. A crazy idea.

You're missing the point, though. It will be a completely separate WiFi network. Nothing to do with your WiFi, your network, your bandwidth, or your usage (other than general WiFi interference mentioned by Watty).

bk wrote: »

BTW looks like it will be rolled out to all UPC routers, not just the Horizon box.

Yeah my previous Cisco router had a UPC network (by default), so the routers/modems have support for separate/dual networks for a while.

Still don't think the limited range will make it a usable urban WiFi network, mind you!

watty wrote: »

There is EXTREMELY limited WiFi Spectrum. It will reduce WiFi speed (even for people NOT on UPC!) and provide Hotspots for a minority of UPC users only.

No different to the default configuration of their routers a few years ago. One WiFi network that you defined (your own SSID / password), and one that they defined. Given the limited (extremely) range of all routers used by UPC, it won't be as big a deal as you might think.

watty wrote: »

i.e. Marketing.

You could extend that argument and say there's no need for UPC to supply WiFi at all. It's "easy" for someone to setup WiFi if they want. It all comes back to marketing!

watty wrote: »

It's no big deal to permanently add another WiFi definition to your gadget or laptop if visiting a friend

It is to most people, I would suggest. However, this is about convenience. It's about ging to that friend's house and just using the WiFi. No need to ask for the password, no need for them to sigh and have to find the password that they're sure they wrote down on that piece of paper beside the phone, but it's gone now, and whoever cleaned that table last must be to blame, etc. Plus if your host is more technical minded (and paranoid) there's no need for them to worry about exposing their network to you.

watty wrote: »

Of course if EVERY gadget & Device and WiFi had a short range IR port

They don't, though. Also, you're assuming a physical presence which might not be the case. If I'm in a coffee shop in Ranelagh, do I use their paid-for WiFi, or do I use that of the next door UPC customer?

watty wrote: »

You can't get extra WiFi connections without reducing existing bandwidth.

Which would be a bigger issue if the UPC routers had any sort of deent range (they don't). In any urban environment, you'll be lucky not to have WiFi clutter now anyway, so you're unlikely to get full channel speeds to yourself (even in 5GHz). UPC might add to it, but the problem already exists. It's not a huge deal, IMO, for many places anyway.

watty wrote: »

This is a Marketing concept, not sensible engineering.

Yes, WiFi is!

oscarBravo · 24-01-2014 12:17pm

cgarvey wrote: »

You're missing the point, though. It will be a completely separate WiFi network. Nothing to do with your WiFi, your network, your bandwidth, or your usage (other than general WiFi interference mentioned by Watty).

Well, no. Unless the router has two radios in it, it's a virtual AP created by adding a second SSID on the same frequency as your home network.

Very few people understand the implications of allowing a device with a poor signal to connect to a WiFi access point, but it can have a seriously negative effect on other connected devices.

Imagine your laptop is connected to your 11n WiFi router at 130Mbps. That's the air interface rate, which means that it takes around a twentieth of a second for the router to send you a megabyte of data. If there's another device connected at the lowest rate - 1Mbps - it takes eight seconds to send a megabyte to that device. The AP radio will switch between the connected devices many times during that period, but it still needs to stop transmitting to your device, switch to a completely different modulation, transmit a full radio frame at the slowest rate possible, switch back to the higher modulation, transmit a frame quickly to you, switch modulation and send another slow radio frame... and that's with just one slow device connected. The problem gets compounded very, very quickly with multiple devices connected at poor signals.

Then you have the "hidden node" problem. If the client devices can't "hear" each other, one of them thinks it has a clear channel to talk to the AP while another client is transmitting. This creates collisions, which requires the AP to wait until both clients have stopped transmitting - and remember, at least one of them is transmitting slowly - before broadcasting an instruction to all clients to shut up for a random amount of time before retrying their transmissions. The more hidden nodes, the more severe the problem.

All of these are protocol-level problems, completely separate from the interference problem. 2.4GHz spectrum is a scarce resource, despite (or, more likely, because of) the channels being so much wider than GSM channels, and because of the lack of coordination in spectrum reuse. All of the protocol problems I've described above (and several more I haven't) are exacerbated by interference, and radio noise is cumulative.

I'm not saying this won't work to some extent; I'm pointing out that anyone who's expecting it to work as well as a properly-designed mobile network, and believing that it can't possibly have any negative impact on the UPC customers who will be hosting it, doesn't necessarily understand all the engineering issues.

bk · 24-01-2014 1:00pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not saying this won't work to some extent; I'm pointing out that anyone who's expecting it to work as well as a properly-designed mobile network, and believing that it can't possibly have any negative impact on the UPC customers who will be hosting it, doesn't necessarily understand all the engineering issues.

Will it have an impact, yes.

Will it have a noticeable impact, well now that is the question.

I think the truth is most people are signing up for 120mb/s BB etc. and are in reality only using a fraction of it.

Personally, I would consider myself a pretty advanced and heavy internet user (300GB per month), I do lots of Netflix, Youtube, etc. and have about 20 internet devices in my house (hell I even have a wifi thermostat and can turn on my heating from Spain!) and yet here I am on a 20mb/s ADSL2+ connection and it all works perfectly fine and fast. Really I don't know why anyone really needs 120mb/s [1]

I would guess that I'm in the top 10% of users, if not the top 5%. I'm sure there is a 1% niche who absolutely max out their connection and wifi copying loads of files around the place all the time, but I don't think that is anywhere like the vast majority of customers.

So I think the majority of customers (myself included [2]) are likely to trade a barely noticable slow down in their wifi the very odd time they transfer a big file, for the convenience to being able to connect to millions of wifi hotspots across Europe with any wifi enabled device.

Yes, it is a trade enough, but I do think it is a sensible and fair trade off for most people. And for that 1% niche users who absolutely need every mb of speed, they can always opt out.

[1] Actually I'll be getting 120mb/s UPC in the next month as UPC are finally coming to my apartment building

But it isn't really because I need the increased download speed (it is nice to have, but I don't actually need it), it is more because I need the increase upload speed, that is what will make the difference.

[2] And it is funny I'm saying this as I have a high end 802.11N dual radio router to get maximum performance, but this does seem like a trade off I'm willing to make. In reality if you are copying very large files around all the time, then you should be using gigbait ethernet anyway.

Wifi itself is a compromise, it a compromise of slower speeds (versus ethernet) for the convenience of being able to stroll around the house with your laptop and not have to plug in all the time. Wifi Hotspots just bring this compromise to the next logical step, making it convenient for people to connect their laptop wherever they are.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 1:15pm

bk wrote: »

Will it have an impact, yes.

Will it have a noticeable impact, well now that is the question.

I think the truth is most people are signing up for 120mb/s BB etc. and are in reality only using a fraction of it.

Very different things, granted 99% of people only use a fraction of their bandwidth but that's not the point:)

We are talking about the OTA interface at your AP and how two devices or AP channels on the same frequency (or even a different frequency) will kill performance for the owner of the AP...so the AP owner must sacrifice their available speed for random passer-by users.

You know already how many people come on moaning about performance on wifi (I only get 20Mb/s on wifi when I have 120Mb/s blah blah) so imagine what will happen if they have to share that 20Mb/s with a passer-by?

Also most UPC wifi routers aren't N yet

bk · 24-01-2014 1:29pm

bealtine wrote: »

Very different things, granted 99% of people only use a fraction of their bandwidth but that's not the point:)

We are talking about the OTA interface at your AP and how two devices or AP channels on the same frequency (or even a different frequency) will kill performance for the owner of the AP...so the AP owner must sacrifice their available speed for random passer-by users.

Yes, and other times you will be the random user passing by, using someone elses performance.

bealtine wrote: »

You know already how many people come on moaning about performance on wifi (I only get 20Mb/s on wifi when I have 120Mb/s blah blah) so imagine what will happen if they have to share that 20Mb/s with a passer-by?

Yes, people get a new service, they do a speedtest and whine/wonder why they aren't getting the full 120mb/s

That is why we always recommend they plug into ethernet and do the speed test again and also use ethernet if they are copying lots of files.

The question is, once they have done the speedtests, do they regularly ever use the 120mb/s? I think we both know the real answer to that question for most people.

bealtine wrote: »

Also most UPC wifi routers aren't N yet

All UPC DOCSIS 3.0 routers are 802.11N, some just don't have the 5GHz frequency enabled.

Again, wifi is a trade off of convenience over speed. You want top speed, use ethernet (or opt-out of this service). This is a logical step in improving the convenience of wifi.

oscarBravo · 24-01-2014 2:36pm

bk wrote: »

Will it have an impact, yes.

Will it have a noticeable impact, well now that is the question.

I think the truth is most people are signing up for 120mb/s BB etc. and are in reality only using a fraction of it.

[...]

So I think the majority of customers (myself included [2]) are likely to trade a barely noticable slow down in their wifi the very odd time they transfer a big file, for the convenience to being able to connect to millions of wifi hotspots across Europe with any wifi enabled device.

You're missing my point - bealtine has it right when talking about the air interface. We're not talking about the sort of impact that someone plugging into another ethernet port on your router would have; we're talking about someone hogging your radio bandwidth.

I'll try again to explain. Suppose your router is sending you an amount of data that can fit in five radio frames. You're connected at full speed, so the transmitted frames (ignoring ACKs etc) look something like:

.....

Now suppose the router is sending you the same data, but also sending five frames worth of data at the same time to someone connected with a poor signal to the same radio. Now the transmitted frames look like this:

.-----.-----.-----.-----.-----

Now, imagine there are three poor connections to the radio along with your strong one:

.-----+++++#####.-----+++++#####.-----+++++#####.-----+++++#####.-----+++++#####

I've illustrated this with the radio frames for the poor signals taking five times longer to transmit than the strong signals, but remember we're talking about a 1Mb/s radio frame taking 130 times longer to transmit than one at 130Mb/s. Poor signals don't have a "barely noticeable" impact on WiFi performance; they utterly destroy it.

Again: I'm not saying this is an utterly terrible idea; I'm pointing out that it's all too easy to dismiss the effect it can have on your WiFi performance as negligible when you're not thinking in terms of how the air interface actually works.

watty · 24-01-2014 2:45pm

^^^^^ What I was trying to say, but the images are better

SpaceTime · 24-01-2014 2:47pm

This kind of thing is *very* common elsewhere in Europe.

BT do it with FON
Almost all of the French providers do it.

gufnork · 24-01-2014 2:57pm

I'm with the poster above when they said they need to sort out the issues they currently have with the Horizon box before attempting to push the boundaries even further, and I won't even start with the atrocious customer service and inability to solve any of the problems we had with ours to the point that we had to cancel the service entirely.

/rant

bk · 24-01-2014 3:09pm

oscarBravo, there is no need to explain, I know exactly what you are talking about.

But the point I'm making is that everything about wifi is a trade off for convenience and I honestly believe that most people will opt for the extra convenience of this service.

If you don't like it you can always opt out.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 3:10pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

This kind of thing is *very* common elsewhere in Europe.

BT do it with FON
Almost all of the French providers do it.

because someone else does it and it's a terrible idea we must do it too?

Does...not...compute

bk · 24-01-2014 3:24pm

bealtine wrote: »

because someone else does it and it's a terrible idea we must do it too?

Does...not...compute

No, the point is lots of other companies have done it and I've seen very few complaints about it over on other forums (UK and Dutch).

People seem to really like the service abroad. In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

oscarBravo · 24-01-2014 3:32pm

bk wrote: »

No, the point is lots of other companies have done it and I've seen very few complaints about it over on other forums (UK and Dutch).

People seem to really like the service abroad. In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

I guess we'll see. The cynic in me looks at it this way: we have a dynamic in this country which isn't present elsewhere, and that's the fact that mobile data is crippled by being sold as a home broadband product. This makes using a mobile phone to get online a much more hit-and-miss experience than in other countries, which makes the idea of a free WiFi service more attractive, which in turn explains why most of my experiences with free WiFi have been pretty appalling.

Again: we'll see.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 3:47pm

bk wrote: »

In other words the real world experience is that most people haven't seen significant slow down of their service or even noticed any issues at all.

Well the jury is out on that...we'll see, the theory says it's not a good idea the security "nutter" in me says it's a bad idea...the convenience for a few is is not outweighed by my concerns so we'll have to examine the implementation and see how the UPC routers deal with it...

But under no circumstances are random strangers borrowing my scarce wifi bandwidth, it's bad enough already jiggling channels and now having a uncontrollable SSID on the same channel...

I tend slightly towards the "it's all marketing view" with few if any benefits for the owner of the router

bk · 24-01-2014 4:07pm

Well then just opt out.

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us will simply enjoy the benefits.

I'm sure UPC wouldn't roll this out if it had a big, noticeable negative impact on customers as that would only lead to a large number of complaints to CS. Something they are always trying to avoid.

bealtine · 24-01-2014 4:27pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us will simply enjoy the benefits.

We've been over this

WIFI is a scarce resource already and sharing it with a weak (distant) device is going to play havoc with the home users wifi connection but how it will affect the "home user" is yet to be seen...

QOS will have to be very carefully enforced too so somebody doesn't "download the internet" while connected to your AP

watty · 24-01-2014 8:47pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not seeing what the problem is, if you don't like it, you can simply opt out. All the rest of us saavy UPC customers will simply enjoy the benefits.

No, Anything like this should be Opt In, not Opt out.

Only some saavy UPC customers "on the go" Benefit.

Non-UPC neighbours or UPC neighbours opted out can be dramatically affected in dense areas / apartments.

UPC customers can be dramatically affected and not realise this is the cause. This is unfair exploitation of a scarce licence free resource purely to "look generous" but at little expense to UPC and potentially aggravation to customers and close non-customer or opted out neighbours.

I urge everyone to opt out and put the WiFi details on a piece of paper for trusted regular visitors/relatives that you are happy to share your Airpoint/WiFi with.

The UK BT scheme is also a bit daft but more limited as usually people have to pay.

WiFi isn't suitable technology to do this domestically, it's fine for a Hotel Lobby, Library or Cafe. Actually this is what Urban 4G is for.

Stealthirl · 25-01-2014 2:45am

Well i just got a mail from UPC with this mentioned in it.
Price increase of €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month
My broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March. [i was quite happy on 25Mb btw]

I have the Cisco epc3925 modem but have this connected to a Netgear N900 router for much better Wi-Fi range,speed and reliability.
I found with the Cisco that the range wouldn't even be to my hall door or kitchen so not very far where as the Netgear gets to the end of the driveway/back garden
So if i opt in my Wi-Fi from the Cisco would only be useful to someone within the house at best

Heres the E-Mail for anyone interested,as said it just stinks of marketing

Over the past 12 months, UPC has introduced superb new products to bring the best digital experience to our customers including Fibre Powered Horizon TV, superfast broadband and phone services. Through our network investments to date and our ongoing investments in programming, content and technology, we are focused on delivering quality and value for money to all of our customers. Due to increases in overall programming and operating costs, we will need to increase your monthly subscription. We are aware that any price adjustment is unwelcome so we have ensured that the increase is kept to the minimum possible. Details of this price change are outlined below.

Changes to your monthly subscription charges from March.
The change to the price of your UPC services, which is listed below, will be reflected in your bills from March 2014. Change to your subscription
Your price change €7.52 Inc. VAT per month
New Self-serve Discount* -€3.50 Inc. VAT per month
Total Change €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month

*As you are already registered for My UPC you will benefit from our new Self-serve Discount of €3.50 every month. We have transformed My UPC, adding lots of handy features to help you review your account and change your services. Remember you can access your account 24 hours a day, seven days a week to read and pay bills, change contact details with more control over your account. For more details on the improvements and benefits we’ve introduced click on the link below.

MORE INFORMATION

Telephone Rate Changes and Call Pack Improvements

Due to an increase in price from a number of service providers, the rates for some calls will change from 1 April. Please click the link below for details of these changes. Due to popular demand, from 1 April, we will be adding Spain to the list of 21 countries currently included in your Home Phone call pack.

MORE INFORMATION

Our services represent excellent value, however you do have the right to cancel or downgrade your service within 30 days of receipt of this notice without penalty if you choose not to accept these changes.

Additional Value
Your broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March.

We are rolling out a new free service called Horizon Wi-Free to our Broadband customers. You will hear more about this in an email from us in the coming week. If you choose not to participate in this service, visit the Horizon Wi-Free section in My UPC and select ‘opt out’ between 1 - 8 March to be excluded before it launches. You can also choose to opt-in or opt-out after the service launches.

To make sure you are getting the best value services we can provide, please visit www.upc.ie/myproducts to find out more. We would also like to take this opportunity to thank you for your loyalty, you are a valued customer and we appreciate your support to date. Yours sincerely
Stephen Ruschitzko
Customer Care Director

cgarvey · 25-01-2014 3:51am

Rather than replying, I'll just say I'd assumed this would only be on twin-radio CPE. I'd assumed all recent routers were twin radio. I might be right in a sense (2.5 / 5GHz radios), but not in the context of it being a completely separate network. So that shaves off a lot of the gloss.

However, I think the WiFi interference is closer to a minor issue, rather than a major issue. The single biggest complaint is the pants range on UPC's stock CPE. If I stand in our driveway, I don't get any UPC WiFi signal, even though 2 of my 3 closest neighbours, and myself, have UPC (and its WiFi turned on). The pants Cisco boxes can't get to the other side of a wooden door, nevermind through the exterior walls!

It still solves the visitor issue, and could make a huge play in commercial installations (where WiFi interference is already a huge issue).

As for the security risk, you're trusting the Cisco firmware (aside from your hackable WiFi) as it stands. If you don't, then you should have your own firewall inside the network (which I definitely do!).

A "city wide" WiFi network it ain't (and certainly shouldn't be for the reasons above), but it'll probably be advertised as such. I'll be certainly partaking, if it ever sees the light of day.

watty · 25-01-2014 5:48pm

As for the security risk

Is only increased BETWEEN the Public Users in a car in the street etc... Not different for existing private user. But all Public WiFi have this. Which is why really for ANY public WiFi you should now use VPN*. HTTPS adds no security on a Cafe or Hotel where the WiFi provider has installed "man in the middle" attack, so at least more secure on HTTPS than <insert random public WiFi point>. Most email (virtually all POP3) uses plain text passwords.

The problem is that there is no scientific way to know ever how bad this turns out in practice, only will be under reported problems. But as with so called "White Space" Radio and many other RF scenarios you CAN model it and say it's a problem.

(* We set up a server at home to handle VPN on port 80 so that UL etc couldn't block it, then the VPN client was using the home ISP for email and Browsing. A pig to create the keys, but once setup just a click to connect on Window/OS X/Linux remote clients)

podgeandrodge · 02-03-2014 2:52pm

How does one "opt out" - I read their FAQ which said register and set a password and then click disable.

So I'm now enabled but can't see how to disable!

cgarvey · 02-03-2014 3:59pm

Not the forum for those sort of questions (but it's under My Products > Broadband > Wi-Free > Show full details, and if you have a password set, you'll see a button to change it, and a link under that button "Disable Horizon Wi-Free").

podgeandrodge · 02-03-2014 8:17pm

cgarvey wrote: »

Not the forum for those sort of questions (but it's under My Products > Broadband > Wi-Free > Show full details, and if you have a password set, you'll see a button to change it, and a link under that button "Disable Horizon Wi-Free").

thanks cgarvey, yeah I know it's not the forum but there were so many references to opting out I figured it was handy!

No button to "disable horizon wi-free" underneath the password change button unfortunately. Maybe because I am in Dublin and the service is only starting....but the opt out was supposed to be between 1st and 8th March.

cgarvey · 03-03-2014 4:02am

podgeandrodge wrote: »

No button to "disable horizon wi-free" underneath the password change button unfortunately

Sounds like you'll have to get on to UPC then (it's still there for me, and has been since I set the password on Fri).

GpmIrl · 07-03-2014 11:24am

Dublin customer - Notice received from UPC re new Horizon Wi-Free service which gave instructions for "opt out" in clear big print.

the website does not have a 'register' button within the area specified. They request you have to actively register in order to 'Disable Horizon Wi-Free'.
There is only further information which brings you to further screens none of which has any access to register. It loops you around.

Also the URL given for terms and conditions on both the printed notice and their website goes to a 404 Error - Pages not available.
This has to be in breech of Regulations!
They cannot impose a service on customers without the opt out option!
On trying for the third time getting login unavailable due to technical difficulties

Does anyone know what can be done to actually "disable or opt out"?

watty · 07-03-2014 2:00pm

Time to poke Comreg I think!

GpmIrl · 07-03-2014 10:53pm

I did exactly that today and requested that they confirm
1. they are aware of this
2. They are actively protecting out privacy and consumer rights

bealtine · 07-03-2014 11:08pm

GpmIrl wrote: »

I did exactly that today and requested that they confirm
1. they are aware of this
2. They are actively protecting out privacy and consumer rights

Who Comreg? protecting consumers? Comreg talking to UPC would be like being attacked by a dead sheep...

White Heart Loon · 07-03-2014 11:23pm

bealtine wrote: »

Who Comreg? protecting consumers? Comreg talking to UPC would be like being attacked by a dead sheep...

I've a vision of D'unbelievables Garda skit in my head "sure you can't be doing that lads"

Johnboy1951 · 27-04-2014 3:03pm

Stealthirl wrote: »

Well i just got a mail from UPC with this mentioned in it.
Price increase of €4.02 Inc. VAT per Month
My broadband speed will increase from 50Mb to 120Mb from 1 March. [i was quite happy on 25Mb btw]

I have the Cisco epc3925 modem but have this connected to a Netgear N900 router for much better Wi-Fi range,speed and reliability.
I found with the Cisco that the range wouldn't even be to my hall door or kitchen so not very far where as the Netgear gets to the end of the driveway/back garden
So if i opt in my Wi-Fi from the Cisco would only be useful to someone within the house at best

Heres the E-Mail for anyone interested,as said it just stinks of marketing

You seem to be in an ideal situation to enable the service ...... house guests only will be able to use it, and if they did, it would not interfere with your own WiFi on the other router .... and yet you will get access to the service while out roaming.

championc · 07-06-2014 12:12pm

Is there any sign of a Dublin rollout yet ?

How is it going so far in Limerick ?

BT began this years ago, allocating a fraction of peoples broadband for other users, when out an about, in order to make a giant wireless network. It seems BT FON / HomeHub is alligned now with many other countries meaning that if you have a BT account, you have wifi access in many countries abroad. Look at France for instance - http://maps.fon.com/

UPC trials Horizon Wi-Free service in Limerick

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