Dog Attacks, Restricted Breed or not

Xiney · 10-05-2010 3:16pm

We had a labrador who was basically the poster child against backyard (irresponsible) breeders.

His mother, it turned out, was a submissive widdler. In him this genetic predisposition to submissive behaviour translated into being a "fear biter" and being food agressive. I have yet to encounter a dog who was as food agressive as him.

He bit my mother when she was putting the food down for him. Literally biting the hand that fed him.

He bit my father when he held him on the chin. He growled, and my dad checked to see if his tail was wagging :rolleyes: and in that moment he bit him. I was quite young at the time and it took me years before I'd even touch a dog's chin after.

He bit my sister twice - first time I forget why but we figured it was provoked in some way and it wasn't a serious bite. Second time it was completely unprovoked and he went through her hand. She was 7 years old.

I'm actually the only member of the family he didn't get around to biting before he had to be pts. We were living in a rural area with no dog behaviourists - he was already on the dog version of prozac to try and calm him down.

Still, he should have never been bred from that bitch.

morganafay · 10-05-2010 3:19pm

TooManyDogs wrote: »

anything to do with breed, it's more to do with how the owner has brought up their dogs, I really don't believe one breed is any better or worse than another, but the restricted breeds always make the papers, no one cares if a small dog attacks anyone.

I think it's a little to do with the breed. Some breeds are just more snappy than others. I know that's generalising, but it's basically true. Some have a higher chance of being aggressive if they're not socialised right. It's the owner's fault though. I'm not talking about restricted breeds specifically, but other breeds too. All breeds have their "expected temperament" and you'll get some that are like that, and some that are different.

The same way as some breeds are more playful, some more loyal, lazy, bossy, stubborn, shy, loud, quiet, or whatever.

morganafay · 10-05-2010 3:22pm

TooManyDogs wrote: »

:eek: You must have a target painted on you!

Lol, no it's just from doing dog grooming in college! See we'd only charge 5-10 euro, so people would bring dogs that have never been groomed before and they'd get stressed out. And a lot of them were pretty matted and you have to try to brush the matts out if you can, and that must hurt them and piss them off. And we got quite a few unsocialised nervous farm dogs. And there would be about 6 dogs getting groomed in one room, so it'd be really noisy and some of the dogs would be really nervous.

My dogs must have targets painted on them though! Cavaliers are too friendly for their own good and I guess they look like easy targets, because dogs love attacking them !

imom922 · 10-05-2010 3:26pm

Hi i'm the owner of a Dogue de Bordeaux(french mastiff). At nearly 10st he aint a small dog but smallish for his breed. Twice he has been set upon by Scotch Terrier twice ive told the owner of the terrier to keep the thing on a lead. My Dog is no way aggresive plays/runs with anything when i let him off the lead. The owner of the terrier laughed at me saying "jaysus would ya look at the size o the thing yer protecting". Now if i let my dog sort out the issue i'm at fault. The owner would be screaming for mine to be put down. It aint the dogs its the stupid owners who are to blame for 99% of all dog agression.

getz · 10-05-2010 3:29pm

morganafay wrote: »

Lol, no it's just from doing dog grooming in college! See we'd only charge 5-10 euro, so people would bring dogs that have never been groomed before and they'd get stressed out. And a lot of them were pretty matted and you have to try to brush the matts out if you can, and that must hurt them and piss them off. And we got quite a few unsocialised nervous farm dogs. And there would be about 6 dogs getting groomed in one room, so it'd be really noisy and some of the dogs would be really nervous.

My dogs must have targets painted on them though! Cavaliers are too friendly for their own good and I guess they look like easy targets, because dogs love attacking them !

dogs will attack other dogs if they show weakness,but they dont attack a calm/submissive dog, cavaliers are a shy nervous breed

arybvtcw0eolkf · 10-05-2010 3:42pm

I've been bitte by a Westie, a Yorkie and a JRT.

My dogs (a Pitbull & a Staffie) are regularly set upon by JRT's, my Staffie is a softie but my Pit' is very restrained but know's his position (ie Topdog!) and recently I've been giving him a lot more leeway in regards to his reactions to being attacked.. Believe me there's only so many times you can tell JRT owner's to control their dogs before it wear's thin!.

Maybe the reason why we're finding a higher incidence of Labs, Collies, JRT's etc attacking is that owner's of these dogs are legally allowed to exercise less control over their dogs than those owner's of RB dogs.

Another thing, and this is just a feeling I get.. On my road children have been bitten by a neighbours Lab, and another neighbours mutt - no legal action were taken (despite the mutt attack resulting in a child having stitches to its mouth.. I wonder if it if things would be different if it was one of my lads!.

morganafay · 10-05-2010 3:51pm

getz wrote: »

dogs will attack other dogs if they show weakness,but they dont attack a calm/submissive dog, cavaliers are a shy nervous breed

My dogs aren't shy or nervous at all. A Cavalier shouldn't really be shy or nervous. They're friendly and outgoing. They'll calmly walk up to sniff another dog with their tails wagging. Or if I don't let them, which I usually don't anymore, then they'll just walk by with their tails wagging, completely calm and submissive. And they've gotten attacked loads of times when they were acting like that.

Unless it's my fault for acting a little nervous and the dogs can tell.

Either way, it's the owners' faults for letting their dogs go out on the road.

adser53 · 10-05-2010 4:46pm

getz wrote: »

dogs will attack other dogs if they show weakness,but they dont attack a calm/submissive dog, cavaliers are a shy nervous breed

Lol you havn't met mine then. Cavs are known for being too brave for their own good. They certainly aren't shy or nervous

Wibbs · 10-05-2010 4:56pm

maggie82 wrote: »

Another reason can often be the way they look, not big and scary, but tails may be docked, can be bradycephalic (ie boxer type head) and to a dog with a tail and long muzzle like a GSD they look totally different and cannot use typicaly canine greeting behaviour and body positions effectively so GSD has no idea if its friend or foe. (just using boxer & GSD as example but applies to all)

I think this is a lot to do with it. Floppy ears, short cute faces, docked tails etc essentially render a dog mute in the canine world. So misunderstandings happen.* If a dog isnt well socialised with other dogs and is treated like people by owners its a recipe for disaster. Plus depending on the natural inclination to pack order of an individual dog that could cause trouble too. Owners are the biggest problem though.

As for personal experiences? Ive never had any issue with the restricted breeds. Quite the opposite actually. I've experience of GSD's Rottweilers, dobermans, malamutes and other huskies, even high content wolf hybrids(the twitchiest of the lot, but the easiest to read in general, though not good pets). Any hassle Ive had have been with the "cuter" breeds, particularly the over cosseted toy dogs.

* EDIT I recall reading about wild domestic dogs in italy where they're a big problem I gather. Italian wolves will sometimes mate with them, but only the "wolfy" looking breeds. Probably because they can understand each others signals. They either avoid the floppy eared types or kill them.

morganafay · 10-05-2010 5:10pm

That's really interesting.

My dogs can't read a dog's temperament/mood anyway, and will act friendly to a dog that is staring at them about to attack, and I have to drag them away.

But my dogs love other dogs with floppy ears, especially other Spaniel types. I think it'll be interesting if I get another breed of dog, to see if they know it's not a Cavalier. They hate dogs with pointed ears and bull breeds (the racists).

sambuka41 · 10-05-2010 5:28pm

adser53 wrote: »

in 90% of dog attack cases, it's the owner's fault, not the dogs

I think this sums it up perfectly!! Its nearly always the owners fault,

whether thats through neglect (dog not socialised or cared for)
not supervising (imo ALL dogs should be monitored AT ALL times when with children,not stalked but someone should be near by, for sure),
not educated about their dogs behaviour and so not being able to recognise the warning signs,
not educated about the dogs needs (exorcise,discipline regardless of breed)
Their own attitude (or energy as Caesar would say:p) people can end up causing two dogs to fight or attack just by running into the situation all stressed and excitable,screaming like crazy people. (seen that happen so many times)

So I dont think its down to the breed its down to the owner

lrushe · 10-05-2010 10:32pm

My experience of dog bites on people (none were me thank god!!)

1. Collie
2. Medium sized mongrel type
3. JRT
4. Yorkie (requiring surgery on the top of a finger to reattach:eek:)
5. Westie - v.vicious attack to a childs face and back.

Luckily I've not experienced too much dog to dog aggression. The worst was my own Wire Haired Fox Terrier who was really dog aggressive, he was contantly gunning for a fight!

adser53 · 10-05-2010 11:34pm

I'm delighted I wasn't proven wrong about Restricted breeds!

Whispered · 11-05-2010 12:16am

morganafay wrote: »

My dogs can't read a dog's temperament/mood anyway, and will act friendly to a dog that is staring at them about to attack, and I have to drag them away.

I have the same problem with my dog actually. He's a big fool and wont take "no play" signals seriously. :rolleyes: I have to drag him away from any potential play mates.

Oranage2 · 11-05-2010 1:57am

adser53 wrote: »

I'm delighted I wasn't proven wrong about Restricted breeds!

not sure how much it proves really since most restricted breed attacks end in death so the person can't vote (joke)

but really there are a lot more non-restricted breed dogs and owners of restricted breeds usually take pre-cautions so there dogs dont attack like always keeping on a leash and not leaving it on the treet to wander.

I use to deliever leaflets and the worst dogs by far for agreesion are westies and Labredors . I've never had problems with the restricted breeds.

ghost_ie · 11-05-2010 2:31am

adser53 wrote: »

Not a silly question at all Whispered, I'd actually like peoples opinions on this too.

I do think some breeds give off an air of "superiority" that some other breeds seem to immediatley dislike and are instantly cagey of. That coupled with small dog syndrome can often lead to attacks and scuffles.

More often than not though I do think that the dogs home environment is the root of this rather than breed. For example, a family get's a small toy dog (for the sake of this discussion, say a Pom) because they assume it's size means low maintenance. The dog isn't socialised or disciplined, excercised or stimulated mentally. We all know this happens. This dog then gets out or is brought on a rare walk because it's a nice day and let off leash. (Again because the owner's are clueless and think it's size means it's harmless.) It goes mad barking at an on leash labrador and is all up in it's face because it knows no-better and the owners don' think anything will happen. The lab snaps and injures the Pom.

How common is this scenario regardless of the breeds I've mentioned?

I'm not saying this is always the case but IMO it is quite common and in 90% of dog attack cases, it's the owner's fault, not the dogs

I have 3 dogs. The eldest (11) a lab/collie cross has always been a gentle dog. The other two are the problem. They are both JRT crosses - aged 8 and 3 and not related - and when they are on the lead they go demented if they see another dog. Off the lead they either ignore other dogs (if there's a ball to focus on) or interact normally with them (if there's no ball). It's got to the stage where I'm constantly looking ahead for dogs and taking detours or crossing roads to avoid a meeting. If tried smacking noses, telling them they're bold, rewarding the eldest dog for being good and leaving the criminals out - but nothing works. Any suggestions would be welcomed as getting the dogs to and from the park is becoming quite stressful

IvySlayer · 11-05-2010 4:39am

I've never really been bitten or attacked by a dog.

One scary encounter was with a Rottweiler who growled at me when I went to stroke him. I lept back but he was just as afraid of me and ran away!

Another incident, probably my fault, there was a chichuahua, I went down to stroke, it was a moody little fecker and and snapped and barked at me!

adser53 · 11-05-2010 9:17am

Oranage2 wrote: »

not sure how much it proves really since most restricted breed attacks end in death so the person can't vote (joke)

but really there are a lot more non-restricted breed dogs and owners of restricted breeds usually take pre-cautions so there dogs dont attack like always keeping on a leash and not leaving it on the treet to wander.

I use to deliever leaflets and the worst dogs by far for agreesion are westies and Labredors . I've never had problems with the restricted breeds.

I'm glad you finished that opening statement with "(joke)"

As for the numbers of RB vs non-RB that is true. Obviously there are more labs than akitas but if you break it down you could say:

(this is a hypothetical comparison, not fact and is just my own opinion) In dublin there are 10'000 labs (for example) and 100 lab attacks per year. There are 1,000 rotties (again, for example. Pick any breed for this) and 10 rottie attacks per year. The ratio works out the same but the media sensationalises (sp?) the incidents involving RB's giving them a bad name and image.

My point isn't that all RB dogs are innocent and never attack, I'm saying the likelihood of ANY dog attacking is equal and in nearly all cases it's the owners fault. The arguement of bite power, size etc shouldn't come into it as a dog of any size can do horrific damage to someone. There are recorded cases of children being killed by JRT's for example and I believe even a Pomeranian killed a child in the US.

And I do believe that RB owners are GENERALLY more responsable for their dogs and keep them under control because they a)legally have to and b)they know if anything did happen they'd be screwed!we all know this isn't always the case (as I sit in my van here typing this, a GSD is roaming around beside me. The particular area I'm working in today tho, roaming dogs are more common than on leash ones being walked)

The RB list unjustly confines a few dogs to it's rules whereas other dogs (going by this thread alone it'd be collies or labs or JRT's for example) get away scot free. I'm not saying the RB list should be expanded to incorporate them, i'm saying the oppoaite in fact. It should be updated with laws that promote responsible dog ownership and accountability regardless of breed.

Discostuy · 11-05-2010 11:55am

Been biten by a narky Collie and a Jack Russell...both were snap bites, warning bites if you will, and not actual maulings (thank god). But still were pretty sore, as i was only young.

I own 2 American Akitas...my brother has a Rottie...and we used to own a Staffie when i was younger (who was rescued from a dog fighting ring...she was in an awful state when we got her...her skin never healed)

I am glad to say there have never been any problems with any of them dogs even so much as barking or growling at a person.

kalie · 11-05-2010 12:11pm

I got a few snap bites of Yorkie's when i helped out at a bording kennels. There were also a few Collies i avoided because they had bitten people. I find pappered pooches alot worse than restricted breeds because they're not socialised properly.

Shivers26 · 11-05-2010 3:30pm

I've never actually been bitten myself but I keep Cavaliers. I took in a rescue Cav a couple of years ago and he was very grumpy for the breed and he snapped at my son a couple of times. We would never ever have left them alone together so nothing bad ever happened. It turned out that the poor thing had a medical issue due to be mis-treated for years and once we got that sorted he was perfect.

We were out walking 2 Cavaliers last Sunday and were in Donadea woods where literally dozens of dogs were being walked. The only one that was snappy was a JRT. These people we passed with a big dog actually thanked us for stopping to chat and pet the dog. They said other people just saw the size of him and would give a wide berth and he was so friendly. We would always let our dogs socialise with other dogs when out and I would not avoid restricted breeds once they were with the owner. Most dog owners love having their dogs admired anyway so would be happy enough to let the dogs have a sniff.

boodlesdoodles · 11-05-2010 4:58pm

I've never been attacked myself thank God but a few weeks back my Westie was attacked by a Kerry Blue who got off his lead. He had my fella by the neck in his jaws and his jaw had to be prised open to release my dog. Being a westie he's all mouth, he's a big wuss really afraid of his shadow at times but I had put a lot of work into him on walks ignoring other dogs. We were at the stage when I could walk him with pleasure and even jog sometimes. He was taking notice of nothing only me. The attack ruined all that work and dented my confidence in a major way. I'm still exceptionally nervous walking him and he's gotten slightly dog aggressive but he's never off lead and I'm working on his discipline again - we'll get there.

The worst part is that the owner of the other dog knew very well that his dog was dog-aggressive in fact it had attacked another dog on the road a week previous. The dog warden called to him and told them they should muzzle the dog for public safety e.g. a child might make a noise he doesn't like some day. Have they listened? They're still walking the dog unmuzzled using the same collar that it escaped from. The mind boggles.

bmw535d · 11-05-2010 11:49pm

i have a huge lab with the best temperament you could get but my aunts retriever annoyed it one day and he snapped and made **** of the retriever. there's never been another dog brave enough to challenge him they run up all shouty and my dog lets 1 growl out of him and they sh*t it and run away.

to this day he has never even accidently nipped any1,the previous owners really did do a good job of raising him:)

jinxycat · 23-05-2010 11:24pm

I was bite once by a golden labrador when I was a child. Was on holidays with the family at the time and were staying with friends. The dog was really nice and friendly, then one day I was standing beside it petting it and the dog jumped up to my face and snapped at me just on the mouth. Thankfully it didn't break skin or anything. Also it never put me off dogs.

I was brought up with big dogs and was fully aware of how not to annoy them and stuff so it was a big shock to me at the time when it happened.

pH · 24-05-2010 12:40pm

I've had springers for a while, my last one the only incident was being attacked by 2 off the lead staffies, which resulted in a serious mauling, many stitches and a costly vet visit. The thing that pissed me off the most was that the shell-suit wearing owner knew he was scott-free, this was on the canal, I had no mobile (would the Gardai have even been interested?) and I had to get get her to the vet as a large chunk on skin on her hind leg was hanging off.

My current spaniel, yes many terrier types will have a growl and a lunge at him, though my only real problem was a charging GSD who ran 50m to attack, I swung a kick at the dog (while trying to move the springer - who was on a lead away) - this resulted in a tirade of abuse about "how effing dare I try and kick his dog, and how he'd fix me").

In both these situations if the owners had been obeying the law (muzzled & leashed) then there would have been no problems.

Yes it may be the *owners* fault, however I'd far rather meet a westie with a bad owner than rotts/GSDs/APBs with an equally bad owner.

I'd really like to see proper stats (from A&E or vet admissions) for stranger dog attacks in public places (where the rules for leashes and muzzles apply) as opposed to attacks in the home etc on friends and family, my gut feel (from personal experience) is that the restricted breeds are the problem.

Irishcrx · 24-05-2010 4:32pm

I was at the beach the weekend with the good weather and brought both the dogs with me. Took them up the beach away from all the crowds and let them off the lead and into the sea for a swim and a bit of ball catching, all was grand they know to stay by me and when we were heading home I put them both back on the lead I had one and my girlfriend had the other. I walked a little ahead and saw a terrier off lead ahead of us with no owner in site who was barking at other dogs on the beach. When he saw me he started barking at me and my Sib Husky, I pulled my dog back away from it to walk away when the little bugger started snapping at him and tried to grab a hold of his leg, I had to step in nearly taking a bite myself and push him away while trying to stop my lad from reacting, meanwhile my Girlfriend had my German Sheperd who had saw it and had broken off her lead and was running towards the terrier (Please note she is only 4 months old and startled my gf when she saw the dog attack and managed to tug free she wasn't let go) anyway I didn't have time to control the two of them and she jumped on the terrier and they started fighting. I broke it up and called her back to me and took her lead and she stopped just as the owner of the terrier turns up.

Obviously I was annoyed that the owner had this dog off lead running around nipping at other peoples legs and I let her have it about mainly not supervising her dog at least and second having it off lead in an area where there are hundreds of people playing, sunbathing etc. Her reply was pretty much that it's her dog and she'll worry about it not me. Then she also told me that my german shepered would be in more trouble than her if she reported it as it was a restricted breed. Feckin cheek of her! for someone who knew so much about breeds you'd think she would know how to train, treat and look after her own!...this is what were up against!

Dog Attacks, Restricted Breed or not

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