HSS back in DL?

zagmund · 16-04-2014 12:55pm #1

I saw the HSS pulling out of Dun Laoghaire harbour a few days ago (Friday maybe).

Does anyone know if it's back in service for Easter or whether this was a test run for later in the Summer.

z

Tabnabs · 16-04-2014 2:10pm

Back on route until September. One trip a day (23 knots +- across the Irish Sea

).

knucklehead6 · 17-04-2014 7:57am

Tabnabs wrote: »

Back on route until September. One trip a day (23 knots +- across the Irish Sea ).

Why are they only operating at 23knots?

I thought their cruising speed was up around the 40 knot area?

Tabnabs · 17-04-2014 9:16am

Cost of fuel vs income from crappy load figure.

Even the Jonathan Swift is still managing speeds in excess of 30kts.

knucklehead6 · 17-04-2014 9:24am

Tabnabs wrote: »

Cost of fuel vs income from crappy load figure.

Even the Jonathan Swift is still managing speeds in excess of 30kts.

Is it worth even having her there? Surely a cruiser would be better in terms of economy, even if it has a low load factor

Tabnabs · 17-04-2014 9:32am

She makes enough money to cover her costs and it's cheaper than laying her up. No buyer for her either so they have little choice but to run it into the ground (financially

) .

DL cannot accommodate a conventional ferry at this stage as the infrastructure is no longer there for a modern "cruise ferries".

relaxed · 22-04-2014 11:52am

Tabnabs wrote: »

She makes enough money to cover her costs and it's cheaper than laying her up. No buyer for her either so they have little choice but to run it into the ground (financially ) .

DL cannot accommodate a conventional ferry at this stage as the infrastructure is no longer there for a modern "cruise ferries".

Is dun laoighre ever likely to see regular cruise ferries again?

Would they invest in the ramps etc. necessary?

It would be revenue for dun laoighre port and reduce the pressure on Dublin port.

Was it a shorter crossing time for conventional ferries?

It's also rail connected and closer to the population of south Dublin, who in turn are further from Dublin airport, so possibly stronger foot passenger potential.

Tabnabs · 22-04-2014 11:57am

The road infrastructure is not in place to handle a conventional ferry. DLRCoCo would never allow it and the good citizens of South County Dublin would be none too pleased either I'd imagine. Foot passengers all choose Ryanair over ferries to one of the most remote places in the UK (aka Hollyhead)

munchkin_utd · 22-04-2014 1:13pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

The road infrastructure is not in place to handle a conventional ferry. DLRCoCo would never allow it and the good citizens of South County Dublin would be none too pleased either I'd imagine. Foot passengers all choose Ryanair over ferries to one of the most remote places in the UK (aka Hollyhead)

+1
since the port tunnel, Dublin port is so much more accessable than Dun Laoighre.
You are motorway as far as the Point and sure even in the port itsself its dual carraigeway as far as the actual checkin.
it couldnt be easier

Dun laoighre in comparison? Its a desperate location behind a maze of city streets nowhere near the national road network.

Larbre34 · 24-04-2014 10:16am

relaxed wrote: »

Is dun laoighre ever likely to see regular cruise ferries again?

There is no demand for a cruise ferry in Dun laoghaire. In the old days Sealink/Stena used to have its DL base in competition with B&I line who ran from the north wall. In those days of expensive air travel up to eight sailings a day used to leave Dublin and Dun Laoghaire for Holyhead, albeit on smaller ferries than we have now. The current market for private travellers and ro-ro trucks is more than covered by Irish Ferries, Stena, P&O Irish Sea, and Norfolkline

Its not a matter of traffic in Dun Laoghaire, the roads are actually fine to disperse ferry traffic in short peaks, as well as the DART on the doorstep of the ferry terminal. What Dun Laoghaire is targetting is the Cruise liner market, another busy summer ahead for anchorage in the bay and the prospect of a berth being built and dredged to cater for ships up to 300 metres long.

SimonMaher · 24-04-2014 11:04am

Larbre34 wrote: »

There is no demand for a cruise ferry in Dun laoghaire. In the old days Sealink/Stena used to have its DL base in competition with B&I line who ran from the north wall. In those days of expensive air travel up to eight sailings a day used to leave Dublin and Dun Laoghaire for Holyhead, albeit on smaller ferries than we have now. The current market for private travellers and ro-ro trucks is more than covered by Irish Ferries, Stena, P&O Irish Sea, and Norfolkline

Its not a matter of traffic in Dun Laoghaire, the roads are actually fine to disperse ferry traffic in short peaks, as well as the DART on the doorstep of the ferry terminal. What Dun Laoghaire is targetting is the Cruise liner market, another busy summer ahead for anchorage in the bay and the prospect of a berth being built and dredged to cater for ships up to 300 metres long.

Labre is right on the roads - even in peak season with a pretty full HSS, cars can clear the town pretty quickly. There is still a preference for tourist traffic to use Dun Laoghaire and that's why the seasonal service has operated successfully over the last few years (and hopefully into the future!). The commercial traffic uses Dublin Port which makes sense.

Trick now for Dun Laoghaire for both ferry and cruise ship passengers is to get them to stay and spend in the town before/after they head on their excursions/next legs/ferry. Decent potential in this - if they get the berth sorted and have 100,000 cruise customers and another 150,000 ferry passengers then it is worth a lot of cash to a town very much in need of a break.

Simon

Tabnabs · 24-04-2014 11:17am

SimonMaher wrote: »

Labre is right on the roads - even in peak season with a pretty full HSS, cars can clear the town pretty quickly.

The HSS never runs at full capacity and only has one arrival per day. Change that to 4 or 5 and see how the locals enjoy sitting behind dozens of cars, vans, coaches and trucks on Seapoint Ave.

SimonMaher wrote: »

There is still a preference for tourist traffic to use Dun Laoghaire and that's why the seasonal service has operated successfully over the last few years (and hopefully into the future!). The commercial traffic uses Dublin Port which makes sense.

But the Irish Ferries fast craft uses Dublin Port with a twice daily year round schedule. Coupled with the two very large 'Cruise Ferries' of Stena and IF also using Dublin Port, I'd say that port wins hands down for tourist traffic.

SimonMaher wrote: »

Trick now for Dun Laoghaire for both ferry and cruise ship passengers is to get them to stay and spend in the town before/after they head on their excursions/next legs/ferry. Decent potential in this - if they get the berth sorted and have 100,000 cruise customers and another 150,000 ferry passengers then it is worth a lot of cash to a town very much in need of a break.

But you just said that the HSS traffic clears the town pretty quickly?

These ferry and cruise passengers aren't here to see DL, they are here for Dublin city, Wicklow, all sorts of places other than DL. Would you come to Ireland and stay in DL?

munchkin_utd · 24-04-2014 11:27am

Larbre34 wrote: »

<snip>

Its not a matter of traffic in Dun Laoghaire, the roads are actually fine to disperse ferry traffic in short peaks, as well as the DART on the doorstep of the ferry terminal. What Dun Laoghaire is targetting is the Cruise liner market, another busy summer ahead for anchorage in the bay and the prospect of a berth being built and dredged to cater for ships up to 300 metres long.

BTW, the ferry arrives and departs in the middle of the afternoon so you could land the ferry on the quays by o Connell bridge at that time of the day and the traffic would clear fairly quickly

Move that to (or add to it) a morning or evening sailing and it'd be a very different story.

SimonMaher · 24-04-2014 4:26pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

The HSS never runs at full capacity and only has one arrival per day. Change that to 4 or 5 and see how the locals enjoy sitting behind dozens of cars, vans, coaches and trucks on Seapoint Ave.

But the Irish Ferries fast craft uses Dublin Port with a twice daily year round schedule. Coupled with the two very large 'Cruise Ferries' of Stena and IF also using Dublin Port, I'd say that port wins hands down for tourist traffic.

But you just said that the HSS traffic clears the town pretty quickly?

These ferry and cruise passengers aren't here to see DL, they are here for Dublin city, Wicklow, all sorts of places other than DL. Would you come to Ireland and stay in DL?

I'm really not 100% sure what we're disagreeing about here but lets proceed anyway!

The 'Preference' I mentioned in my post is the preference expressed in customer research by tourists coming to and from Dublin/DL by ferry.

I think you have very little faith in Dun Laoghaire to be able to hang on to some of those visitors for at least some of the time they are here. Yep, they will head off to Glendalough etc but even if they just have breakfast/lunch/dinner/teddys/walk on the pier, then that's valuable too isn't it?

I agree that if there was 4/5 ferries a day then traffic would be worse. But there aren't, nor will there be so that's not an issue unless I'm missing something? The town didn't fall to it's knees when HSS was double tripping back in the mid 2000's so I think it could absorb a second sailing at whatever time of day that was at.

Anyway, let's see what happens. Local traders (particularly food outlets) did very well out of the cruise ships last year and hopefully that is a business that will grow with the new berth.

Simon

LiamoSail · 24-04-2014 11:38pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

. What Dun Laoghaire is targetting is the Cruise liner market, another busy summer ahead for anchorage in the bay and the prospect of a berth being built and dredged to cater for ships up to 300 metres long.

What would be the point in that?

Cruise ships are worth very little to ports, it's the local economy that benefits. The investment needed to facilitate cruise ships in Dun Laoghaire is significant. Keeping the channel dredged, tugs, pilots etc. I know Dublin Pilots look after Dun Laoghaire, but I can't imagine that the tugs will head over and back for every cruise ship

The other issue surrounds the net benefit of such an investment. I doubt Dun Laoghaire itself will attract many additional cruise ships, it's more likely to be a case of them heading there instead of Dublin. Given that the harbour is now under the councils authority, I can't see any justification for significant investment in Dun Laoghaire cruise infrastructure when the net benefit of cruise ships coming to dun laoghaire would be minimal

SimonMaher · 25-04-2014 11:05am

LiamoSail wrote: »

What would be the point in that?

Cruise ships are worth very little to ports, it's the local economy that benefits....

The other issue surrounds the net benefit of such an investment. I doubt Dun Laoghaire itself will attract many additional cruise ships, it's more likely to be a case of them heading there instead of Dublin. Given that the harbour is now under the councils authority, I can't see any justification for significant investment in Dun Laoghaire cruise infrastructure when the net benefit of cruise ships coming to dun laoghaire would be minimal

I'm guessing the idea is exactly as you say above "It's the local economy that benefits". Particularly once the Harbour Company is subsumed into the local authority then that's exactly what the Council should be doing?

The net benefit discussion is interesting. The net benefit to Dun Laoghaire is cash spent locally. The estimate is that cruise passengers spend 30-50 quid per day when in port. Using the 100,000 passengers per year figure, lets be ultra conservative and say that just 50% of them spend in the town at all (and without harbour fees, supplies, coach hire, ship handling etc) and they only spend 20 quid each on lunch, a newspaper and a Teddys. That's a net benefit of a million quid to the local economy per year.

To broaden the discussion then, to measure the Net benefit to the Irish economy as a whole then you're right, there needs to be more ships arriving to make it a Net gain for Ireland Inc. The suggestion is that up to 20% more cruise ships could be persuaded to come here from a growing market. The proposed investment seems relatively small for the potential return.

Simon

LiamoSail · 25-04-2014 6:17pm

SimonMaher wrote: »

I'm guessing the idea is exactly as you say above "It's the local economy that benefits". Particularly once the Harbour Company is subsumed into the local authority then that's exactly what the Council should be doing?

The net benefit discussion is interesting. The net benefit to Dun Laoghaire is cash spent locally. The estimate is that cruise passengers spend 30-50 quid per day when in port. Using the 100,000 passengers per year figure, lets be ultra conservative and say that just 50% of them spend in the town at all (and without harbour fees, supplies, coach hire, ship handling etc) and they only spend 20 quid each on lunch, a newspaper and a Teddys. That's a net benefit of a million quid to the local economy per year.

To broaden the discussion then, to measure the Net benefit to the Irish economy as a whole then you're right, there needs to be more ships arriving to make it a Net gain for Ireland Inc. The suggestion is that up to 20% more cruise ships could be persuaded to come here from a growing market. The proposed investment seems relatively small for the potential return.

Simon

I agree it would be of huge benefit to Dun Laoghaire, but it would be taking money out of Dublin and putting it into Dun Laoghaire. I don't think a Government Authority could justify such investment if there is little or no benefit to the country, in that every penny spent in Din Laoghaire by these cruise passangers is a penny less spent in Dublin.

Dun Laoghaire has potential to attract plenty of ships, but all it's doing is taking them away from dublin and into Dun Laoghaire. I can't see many ships calling at Dun Laoghaire that wouldn't have called at Dublin otherwise,hence little net gain for the country

SimonMaher · 25-04-2014 11:36pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

I agree it would be of huge benefit to Dun Laoghaire, but it would be taking money out of Dublin and putting it into Dun Laoghaire. I don't think a Government Authority could justify such investment if there is little or no benefit to the country, in that every penny spent in Din Laoghaire by these cruise passangers is a penny less spent in Dublin.

Dun Laoghaire has potential to attract plenty of ships, but all it's doing is taking them away from dublin and into Dun Laoghaire. I can't see many ships calling at Dun Laoghaire that wouldn't have called at Dublin otherwise,hence little net gain for the country

Fair point Liam - you're absolutely right that the benefit is localised and risks taking revenue from 8 miles down the Dart line! That's why it's so important to try to attract extra cruise trade in. Time will tell whether that happens - hopefully (to use an awful pun), the rising tide will lift all boats. Sorry.

Simon

relaxed · 27-04-2014 11:41am

I'd say if you lived in south Dublin, Wicklow or Wexford then a boat from dun laoighre and bus or train to the Liverpool Manchester area, where lots of people live, would not take hugely longer than getting to Dublin airport and flying, it would certainly be less stressful, foot passenger market might not be huge, but not everybody wants to fly.

It would disperse road and truck traffic better in the greater Dublin area.

Not sure what the neighbours can do, my road was a lane once, now it's a busy road, I can hardly object to something that's already there.

I can't see why it would be any more expensive than Dublin port to operate and it gives the travelling public greater options.

I don't buy the traffic argument so is there a market for foot, car and freight vehicles? I don't see why not.

LiamoSail · 28-04-2014 12:17am

relaxed wrote: »

I can't see why it would be any more expensive than Dublin port to operate and it gives the travelling public greater options.

Dun Laoghaire Harbour Company set the fees, it's up to them.

I'd imagine Dublin's fees being lower is to a large degree down to economies of scale.

SimonMaher · 28-04-2014 5:06pm

The Fees in Dun Laoghaire used to be massive back in the day. I think a figure up around €6m was still being paid in the mid 2000's which was nuts. Stena had exclusive use which obviously came at a premium but in the post duty-free and post-ryanair days it was ultimately self-defeating for the route and the Harbour Company. The rates now are very much cheaper understandably. Now the shoe is on the other foot and the Harbour company is trying to hold on to the revenue from the ferry - imaginative thinking required here!

HSS back in DL?

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