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If Catholic Church had a new leader...

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Comments

  • #102
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Father Damo wrote: »
    In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

    Visit my kids school for a week and come back to me on this.


  • #103
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Father Damo wrote: »
    In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.
    Yet parents are still forced to send their kids to Catholic schools, because the Catholics run most of the schools, and you can't get in to a Catholic school unless you have been baptised as a kid. Which means that the Catholic authorities can point to the high numbers of baptisms - and the results of previous censuses of people calling themselves "Catholic" even though they aren't, really - and say "see, Ireland is a Catholic country, so it's right that we are running all the schools".

    Did you spot the circular logic there? That's only one example of how the Church has an unjustified stranglehold on this country's institutions. The Constitution is another: some nods towards freedom of religion, followed by the requirement for judges and others to take a religious oath of office. Nothing will change until the people realise how their good nature has been hijacked by the leaders of one religion.

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • #104
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    bnt wrote: »
    Yet parents are still forced to send their kids to Catholic schools, because the Catholics run most of the schools, and you can't get in to a Catholic school unless you have been baptised as a kid. Which means that the Catholic authorities can point to the high numbers of baptisms - and the results of previous censuses of people calling themselves "Catholic" even though they aren't, really - and say "see, Ireland is a Catholic country, so it's right that we are running all the schools".


    How much religious indoctrination is done in said schools?

    In national school we never did religion more than once per month.

    In secondary religion was more of a social responsibility class. Less bible bashing and more talk about keeping us off the drink, the drugs, the underage sex and other enjoyable youthful hi jinks.


  • #105
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    That's right... Blame the Church for the Government's inadequacy when it comes to providing education for atheist parents. The fact is that the Church did the State's dirty work for decades. The chickens are now coming home to roost now that the great State Secularization Project is in full swing.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0528/children.html

    Now what else can we blame on the Church?


  • #106
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    That's right... Blame the Church for the Government's inadequacy when it comes to providing education for atheist parents. The fact is that the Church did the State's dirty work for decades. The chickens are now coming home to roost now that the great State Secularization Project is in full swing.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0528/children.html

    Now what else can we blame on the Church?

    Providing education for kids not parents.


  • #107
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    Providing education for kids not parents.

    Parents are responsible for their children's education.


  • #108
    cartell_best
    Closed Accounts Posts: 579 ✭✭✭cartell_best


    Without sounding rhetorical or paedantic. The church is a business. Without strong financial support it cannot survive. The thing is, we need to look outside the box. If the church had a new leader, we would need someone who is detached from what most people see and understand as being an acceptable norm for a movement (and yeah, thats what man has created).

    Regardless of one's religious beliefs, there is one thing left and thats called a humane approach to life. I believe that a "new leader of the Catholic church"...needs to (not neccesaril)y move with the times but just to show what people seem to lack, compassion. Life seems to be a constant rat race... Nah...its more than that. A lot more. Its just, it takes few to destroy whats good and many to restore what actually is good.


  • #109
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    Most of the Church's wealth is held in trust. You say the church is a business - perhaps to an outside cynic like yourself. In the business of saving souls perhaps; but of course you know better than the Catholic Church. It can and will survive even if there are few young men replenishing the ranks. Thankfully, there are 1,000s of seminarians in Africa and Asia who will be the ones who will enrich the Church in Ireland. There are huge cultural challenges involved, but the Church has had much greater challenges in her past.

    Pope Benedict XVI will be around for a while yet. He has done tremendous work sofar: work that many boardsies would balk at if they even attempted to keep his schedule.


  • #110
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    Now what else can we blame on the Church?


    Dose bleedin bankers?

    Anyone who claims there is any level of religious training in Irish schools is talking sh1te and they know it.


  • #111
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Anyone who claims there is any level of religious training in Irish schools is talking sh1te and they know it.

    This is true. The way forward is to make parents pay for their Catholic education, create a smaller, true church and dump all the rest of the a la carte schools. The Church would make plenty of money for charitable works by doing so.


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  • #112
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    Parents are responsible for their children's education.
    Actually the state is!


  • #113
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    It would be a new religion, just like the Romans did 2,000 years ago, make one yourself and get rich. :)


  • #114
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    Parents are responsible for their children's education.

    Except in matters of supernatural superstitious nonsense. Thats farmed out to schools.


  • #115
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    lividduck wrote: »
    Actually the state is!

    I don't know what kind of nanny state you want to live in.


  • #116
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    I don't know what kind of nanny state you want to live in.
    Nanny State!
    The State has an obligation to provide certain services to its people, including education.
    A Nanny State is what we had when the Church ran riot, exercising political power it had no entitlement to.
    Thankfully that is becoming less and less the case.


  • #117
    Doc Ruby
    Registered Users Posts: 3,956 ✭✭✭Doc Ruby


    In fairness the church has served one vital purpose in that it was instrumental (haw) in the bringing into existence of heavy metal. Can't have satan music without satan now can we.


  • #118
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,498 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    The problem is the popes are always really old. So its not going to happen because they were raised on 1940's ish values. So in 2070 we will have a pope with modern day values. Lol.


  • #119
    St.Spodo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Father Damo wrote: »
    In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

    A nun came into my younger sister's school and showed her class a video of an abortion being performed. This was about 6 months ago.


  • #120
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Father Damo wrote: »
    In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.
    Catholic Communion and Confirmation organized in over 90% of primary schools.
    Religious icons and paraphanalia in over 90% of Primary schools.
    The Angelus said in over 90% of primary schools.
    Roman Catholic catecism taught in 90% of primary schools.
    Prayers said before formal sittings of the Dail!
    State funded broadcasts of Mass and the Angelus


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  • #121
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Dose bleedin bankers?

    Anyone who claims there is any level of religious training in Irish schools is talking sh1te and they know it.

    I'm in 6th year - we stand up to pray before every class, we have three compulsory religion classes a week where we read Catholic propaganda magazines, learn about the Catholic church's (nothing about any other religion) teachings on marriage, contraception etc, we have regular masses which we can't opt out of, I basically got ash forced on me on Ash Wednesday...I really don't know where you got this idea that Irish schools have suddenly become all progressive.


  • #122
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Anyway - I wasn't blaming the Church re Schools: they have control of the schools because people give them the mandate to do so, by checking "Catholic" on the Census forms. When the 2011 Census results come out in April, expect the proportion of Catholics to be a bit lower than they were in 2001 ... and even then, calling yourself "Catholic" doesn't mean what it used to. What about those "hatch, match & dispatch" Catholics, who see the inside of a church perhaps once a year?

    Back to the original question: I know the Pope has control of the Vatican, but when it comes to wider Catholic policy & theology, how much influence does he really have? The last major discussion of that sort was called Vatican II (1962-65), and I was amused to see that every Pope since then played an active role in Vatican II. So the next Pope might be "young blood" compared to these old fogeys ... will it take a "Vatican III" to get more sweeping changes, such as allowing gay priests to get married?

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • #123
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    bnt wrote: »
    Anyway - I wasn't blaming the Church re Schools: they have control of the schools because people give them the mandate to do so, by checking "Catholic" on the Census forms. When the 2011 Census results come out in April, expect the proportion of Catholics to be a bit lower than they were in 2001 ... and even then, calling yourself "Catholic" doesn't mean what it used to. What about those "hatch, match & dispatch" Catholics, who see the inside of a church perhaps once a year?

    Back to the original question: I know the Pope has control of the Vatican, but when it comes to wider Catholic policy & theology, how much influence does he really have? The last major discussion of that sort was called Vatican II (1962-65), and I was amused to see that every Pope since then played an active role in Vatican II. So the next Pope might be "young blood" compared to these old fogeys ... will it take a "Vatican III" to get more sweeping changes, such as allowing gay priests to get married?

    Gay priests?! You must be having a laugh. I.e. trolling.


  • #124
    BlackCatMeoww
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭BlackCatMeoww


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    Father Damo wrote: »
    In what country? The church hsnt had any influence on anyone in this country in 20 years.

    A nun came into my younger sister's school and showed her class a video of an abortion being performed. This was about 6 months ago.

    Catholic church in anti-abortion shocker!


  • #125
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,034 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    A nun came into my younger sister's school and showed her class a video of an abortion being performed. This was about 6 months ago.

    Wouldn't have thought a video of someone taking a mifepristone pill would be all that interesting tbh.


  • #126
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    A nun came into my younger sister's school and showed her class a video of an abortion being performed. This was about 6 months ago.

    Cant say I approve. Nor can I say I am offended.
    lividduck wrote: »
    Catholic Communion and Confirmation organized in over 90% of primary schools.

    So what. Its a great day out for the kids.
    The Angelus said in over 90% of primary schools.

    Remind me which prayer the Angelus is. Because despite 12 years of enduring these supposed Catholic madrassas I cant even remember.
    Roman Catholic catecism taught in 90% of primary schools.

    What again is the catheticism? I cqan remember my 12 times tables but not this stuff. Surely its not because we spent fcuk all time doing it? If church education was so prevalent I should know this stuff off by heart.
    State funded broadcasts of Mass and the Angelus

    I too am dead opposed to mass broadcasts on Sunday on RTE designed to cheer up the elderly and infirm who are too ill to go to mass on Sunday mornings. Should be a porn marathon on instead.
    Namlub wrote: »
    I'm in 6th year - we stand up to pray before every class, we have three compulsory religion classes a week where we read Catholic propaganda magazines, learn about the Catholic church's (nothing about any other religion) teachings on marriage, contraception etc, we have regular masses which we can't opt out of, I basically got ash forced on me on Ash Wednesday...I really don't know where you got this idea that Irish schools have suddenly become all progressive.

    You are hyping this up a bit. I remember all this. And it was more about anti drug, anti drink and anti teen pregnancy than anything remotely to do with actual Catholic belief. We were never once told that pre marital sex, homosexuality or contraception were morally wrong (think we might have been told abortion was wrong, so what. We were probably told the death penalty was wrong and all, who gives a flying fcuk).


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  • #127
    mixed up
    Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭mixed up


    I haven't read this thread i just seen the title.The church can get whatever leader they want it's still all a load of bollox in my opinion.I don't believe in any of it and even if it's all true why would i care about something that happened all them years ago?I go to wedding,christenings,confirmations and funerals and even they bore the fcuk out of me.


  • #128
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Father Damo wrote: »
    You are hyping this up a bit. I remember all this. And it was more about anti drug, anti drink and anti teen pregnancy than anything remotely to do with actual Catholic belief. We were never once told that pre marital sex, homosexuality or contraception were morally wrong (think we might have been told abortion was wrong, so what. We were probably told the death penalty was wrong and all, who gives a flying fcuk).

    Unless you're an 18 year old girl in my year, you're not in the position to tell me that I'm 'hyping' anything up. You're assuming that everyone's experiences with religion in school match yours, which is either incredibly naive or just disingenuous.


  • #129
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    Namlub wrote: »
    18 year old girl in my year...... in the position .





    Mmm.



    Ahem, anyway. Sorry but I honestly dont believe that the vast majority of schools in Ireland have any level of meaningful religious instruction these days. And that people who moan about it are just looking for a cause.


  • #130
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Father Damo wrote: »



    Mmm.



    Ahem, anyway. Sorry but I honestly dont believe that the vast majority of schools in Ireland have any level of meaningful religious instruction these days. And that people who moan about it are just looking for a cause.
    I suppose you also refuse to believe that the earth orbits the sun as well!


  • #131
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,034 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Ahem, anyway. Sorry but I honestly dont believe that the vast majority of schools in Ireland have any level of meaningful religious instruction these days. And that people who moan about it are just looking for a cause.

    Oh really?

    http://www.learningireland.ie/Irish_schools__high_in_spirit_but_low_on_sport_and_sums/index.html

    Then why do OECD reports show that Irish schoolchildren spent the highest amount of time of any children in the world on religion, while spending the lowest amount of time on Maths?


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  • #132
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    lividduck wrote: »
    Actually the state is!

    The state is responsible for educating your children? That's sad.

    The state has a responsibility for providing facilities and means to educate all children.....but to say it is responsible for educating them? That strikes me as very narrow thinking, and a narrow definition of education.


  • #133
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    BlackCatMeoww wrote: »
    Gay priests?! You must be having a laugh. I.e. trolling.
    If only. Priests are people too, you know ... with all that comes with that. Recognising that is not trolling: not recognising it is simply denial of something that is actually happening today. Read this, for example, or search for "gay priests ireland".

    I have to ask: what state of mind does a man have to be in, to voluntarily enter a profession that denies him a full life as an adult male human? Is it always voluntary? Is that state of mind permanent, or a temporary one that led to a choice they may later regret? This idea that, because priests take a vow of celibacy, that they can completely shut down their sexual nature, is one that simply hasn't stood up to scrutiny over the years.

    As long as the Vatican insists that clergy deny their full humanity, we will keep seeing clergy with secret families, such as Bishop Casey, and child abuse. Either way, we will still see priests in gay bars: the only question is whether they get in trouble for it, or not. :cool:

    This is relevant to the topic because this is the kind of reform that a new Pope could bring in ... eventually. It couldn't be a quick or easy process, of course - hence my idea for it as something for "Vatican III".

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • #134
    Sleepy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    OK, I'm a fairly die-hard atheist: having a civil marriage in a hotel, didn't christen my child to placate our education system, wear flying spaghetti monster t-shirts regularly and dismiss all religion as superstitious nonsense that's believed by those too weak or arrogant to accept the facts.

    That said, someone taking control of the Catholic church and running it according to the teachings of Christ they claim to believe in (as in the OP) rather than as a business would have my respect. The potential good the organisations power and wealth could do in this world wouldn't make their beliefs any more credible: they'd certainly make them a lot less hypocritical however.


  • #135
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,672 ✭✭✭elefant


    Stark wrote: »
    You'd think being all powerful he might be able to maintain some sort of website/twitter account with the up-to-date information.

    Be some craic if the pope had a twitter account. I bet he'd come up with really good Demba Ba jokes.


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