Engagement Issues

LegacyUser · 30-09-2014 9:50am #1

This will be long, so apologies for that.

To give some background, I have been with my fiance for over a decade. We have lived together for a decade and I thought that all was well in our world. We discussed getting married, but I have never seen the point really (I would be happy to be legally married but I never wanted a wedding). He agreed with me all along. It made sense not to open that can of worms because neither of us are religious and his family are extremely religious (his uncle is a priest), so I knew that we would be in for a world of pain if we ever did get married.

He proposed to me out of the blue about six months ago and I said yes (I could hardly say no) but a little bit of me wanted to cry because he obviously doesn't know me that well and I knew what was coming. He told me that he had been thinking about it for years and only proposed to me when he had saved up his half of the wedding fund plus the cost of the ring.

I have a low paid job, I have changed/ moved up, but I feel like I am cursed because I have been hit by paycuts over and over again. I inherited a house in another part of the country a few years ago. I got professional advice and talked endlessly to my OH about it and decided that the best thing to do is to renovate it and to rent it. My savings have gone into paying the inheritance tax and to renovating it. I have a good, practical family so the main costs have been materials and some tradesmen. It needed to be completely redone. It is about 85% of the way there now, just a few more cosmetic bits and it will be ready to hit the rental market. Anyway, this means that I have no savings. I saw this as a long term investment, even if it sells, it will sell for a higher value than it would otherwise (initially valued at €30k). He agreed and encouraged all of this. I sank all of my money into this house and now I have about €800 in savings.

Now comes the parts that I think are complete and utter crap. He expects us to get married in 18 months. I have 18 months to save over €10k for a job that pays under €30k (his salary is almost double mine). He keeps giving out to me that I haven't organised anything for our wedding but to start with, he is unwilling to tackle his family about a civil ceremony. I have got absolutely no interest in weddings, even my own. I don't care about the dress, the flowers, the venue or the food. Not at all. He cares, but seems to think that it is my job to sort it out. He literally wants the big white wedding. I have a house to think of and to organize, which I will see some reward from. Finally, he has started demanding that I take his surname. I have no intention of it. If I had my way, I wouldn't even marry him. Why should I change my name? We don't plan to have children, it is my name. He keeps trying to emotionally blackmail me. This I find worrying because it seems like the first step in controlling me. His father is extremely controlling and I have no intention of being controlled.

I am so angry and resentful that he has changed everything. I thought that we were a team and we didn't keep secrets but he has been planning this for years. He has put me in an impossible position financially and no matter what happens, I know that I will the bad person for wanting a civil ceremony.

At this stage, I feel so cornered that I just want to tell him to shove his wedding, his money and his surname. We had a great life together before this crap started and I don't ever see us going back. In case anyone is wondering why we can't push his dream wedding out to a realistic date, it is because he wants to have children before I hit 35 (which I equally could live without the pressure of).

Am I being irrational? He won't listen to me at all.

Mr. Incognito · 30-09-2014 10:36am

I think you are right and you should stick to your guns.

A wedding is only what it means to the two people in it and it sounds like one partner is using it as a stick to beat the other with.

I think a calm, rational conversation along the lines of- I don't want to marry you and here is why.

He is probably feeling pressure from his family to do all of these things.

A compromise might be to take those wedding savings, go on a nice holiday and get married while there. Then you can come back with a ring and a certificate and his family can take it as a romantic gesture and not a snub. I think you have to give him a way out that saves face.

ibarelycare · 30-09-2014 10:41am

What is his response when you tell him you don't want a wedding, and that you don't want to take his surname? Are you standing up for yourself?

Eeden · 30-09-2014 10:51am

Don't want to be here wrote: »

...Finally, he has started demanding that I take his surname. I have no intention of it. If I had my way, I wouldn't even marry him. Why should I change my name? We don't plan to have children, it is my name. He keeps trying to emotionally blackmail me. This I find worrying because it seems like the first step in controlling me. His father is extremely controlling and I have no intention of being controlled.

.... In case anyone is wondering why we can't push his dream wedding out to a realistic date, it is because he wants to have children before I hit 35 (which I equally could live without the pressure of).

Am I being irrational? He won't listen to me at all.

These are the parts that stick out to me.

He does sound very controlling, and you really don't want to get stuck in that situation.

Also, the part about having children - this is a fundamental difference in attitude between you and your fiancé, one that would need to be discussed very seriously.

strobe · 30-09-2014 11:01am

You've said in one paragraph "We don't plan to have children" and in the next "he wants to have children before I am 35", that's a pretty major thing right there...

Along with the wedding stuff it really doesn't sound like you two are on the same page at all.

You can't allow yourself be bum rushed into a wedding and you certainly can't allow yourself to be pressured into having children you don't want, regardless of the length of your relationship.

I think you really really need to sit down with him and in as straightforward and blunt a manor as possible explain exactly what you want or don't want, and ask him what he wants and doesn't want.

It sounds like he's at some point decided he didn't want the same things as you seem to and neglected to inform you of this in the hope that when he eventually did you would go along with things or suddenly change your mind too.

It unfortunately sounds like you two no longer want the same things from life.

LegacyUser · 30-09-2014 11:10am

Its pretty clear that even if you stall the ball on the wedding, you're barrelling down the line towards trouble.

I mean of course, the children thing. He wants them. He's going to get them. And if he doesn't wear you down in time, then you'll both be miserable until he leaves you for someone who'll give them to him. Children are a pretty fundamental need. If you want them - it never ever changes back to not wanting them, sorry.

And yes, you'll be the bad guy.

It was wrong for him to ambush you with a proposal when you had no idea it was coming. And no doubt, you'd been pretty clear about your disinterest in weddings and children in the 10 yrs previously. So I suspect the ambush, and the secrecy, was on purpose. He knew it was the only way to get what he wanted. He knew you loved him and would not say no. I reckon he hoped that once he got that ring on your finger then you'd play ball.

Now you're not playing ball and he's throwing a strop. But you didn't change the rules - he did. And without consulting you. Its woefully bad form.

You're not irrational. And the fact that he now "won't listen to you at all"? Huge red flag.

As is the surname thing. I wanted to get traditionally married in a church, and have the big white dress. BUT I had zero intention of ever taking any mans name and I had made that clear throughout the relationship. He was marrying me, not BUYING me!! So he proposed to me knowing that. And never ever once did he refer to it again, even despite a lot of comments from his family. I saw that as a sign of his respect for my autonomy and it made me love him more.

I would tell him how I feel and if the reaction is bad, simply take off the ring. And let the chips fall where they may. You shouldn't have to be "the bad guy" just for feeling like you've always felt.

Merkin · 30-09-2014 11:20am

This is never going to work. Communication between the two of you sounds absolutely dire as he wants a wedding and children and you clearly don't want either. It's time to have a very serious discussion about what you BOTH want collectively because it would appear to be very little. If that is the case then you need to cut your losses because you can't just 'sort of' get married and get 'a little bit' pregnant. These are very serious, fundamental decisions that have to be agreed upon wholly and bilaterally or your relationship is doomed. You need to talk to one another urgently and decide on your future together.

Calhoun · 30-09-2014 11:27am

OP, honest question do you actually want to be with him? your post doesnt really come across as if he's someone you want to actually be with.

I think its time both you and he put your cards on the table and be prepared to part over it. Most of the stuff you mentioned can be compromised on but the children is one aspect that cannot be. The other aspect you cannot compromise on is getting married, you dont really want to i am not sure why you accepted his proposal?

The other thing then is the finances, you both need to have some joint up thinking on this one. If your to get married you are combining both your incomes ect, this means then that the investment house is something you share as ateam as is the wedding cost. So if your money is invested in the house then the onus is on himself to get another 10K in 18 months or to bring the wedding in within the budget he already has.

mapaca · 01-10-2014 11:14am

OP, you are not being irrational, not one bit. You thought your partner was in agreement with you on these fairly major issues of marriage and children but it seems he was just nodding along, not listening to you, and instead making his own plans for your life together. He's decided everything and is now demanding you go along with it.
Maybe he thought you were just being coy all that time when you said you didn't want marriage and children. Maybe he is trying to be an old fashioned romantic by making all the decisions. Either way, he's made you feel like you are backed into a corner and being controlled. I would be seriously put off by such behaviour and re-thinking the whole relationship if my partner behaved like this.
Children are the biggest issue. If you don't want them, you don't want them, don't let him bully you into it.
You need to have a frank and honest talk with him about everything. Don't be afraid to stand up for what you want. He's the one that moved the goalposts and turned everything upside down. If he can't or won't listen to you and is not willing to compromise, then you might have to call it a day.

Kidchameleon · 01-10-2014 3:51pm

This is a common topic on this forum. Usually its the woman who wants to marry and have kids. Its crazy how the tone of advice given changes when the roles are reversed.

OP nobody is moving goal posts. You guys are together 10 years. People grow and change in a decade. He has changed, its not a crime. You need to let this guy go and get on with his life. You guys have drifted apart. His chances of meeting someone of child baring age are diminishing by the day. Do youself and him a favor and move on.

Toots · 01-10-2014 10:10pm

TBH I don't think it's a case of moving the goalposts - everyone's entitled to change their mind. It's more that he's said he's been planning this 'for years' but yet at no stage let on to the OP that his feelings had changed. And it wasn't an abstract far off plan - he saved up for a ring and his half of the wedding so it would be reasonable to assume he's spent the best part of a year actively planning this, and never thinks to discuss it with the OP, despite knowing how she felt about marriage and children. That just doesn't make sense, particularly given that up until he got down on one knee to the best of the OP's knowledge they were both on the same page about the issue.

OP, I don't think you're being irrational, you've been put in a really unpleasant position. I think his whole approach is pretty underhanded - I'd imagine he proposed knowing you'd say yes because had you given him an outright no, it would have pretty much ended the relationship, which at the time was a happy one. Now that you've said yes to the engagement, you're pretty much being pushed into the white wedding in a church, and now there's a deadline being imposed because he's suddenly made you aware that he now wants children. I don't mean to come across as harsh, but at the minute it sounds to me like this will end one of two ways; either you'll end up going along with what he wants (and potentially resent him hugely for it) or you'll tell him that your feelings on marriage and children haven't changed, which would probably result in the end of your relationship.

Either way, you're pretty much in limbo at the minute. If he won't sit down and listen to you, and keeps trying to emotionally blackmail you (in fairness, it's not a good foundation for a marriage if one party is being emotionally blackmailed into it) then write him a letter. He needs to know how you're feeling, and at least if you write it down he can't interrupt you or argue with you while you're trying to explain it to him.

DukeOfTheSharp · 02-10-2014 2:35pm

Look, the chap is obviously very controlling and thinks that once you accepted the proposal he'd worn you down enough to get what he wanted. He's not thinking about the reality of the situation; namely the difference in funds, the difference in mentality and the difference in basic wants and needs. You don't want kids, and you know what? That's fine. As for taking his last name? He has no right to demand that, and you have every right to keep your last name if you wish. When someone who makes nearly double what you do starts harping onto you about putting a third of your yearly pay into a wedding, it's time to leave. He's gone and decided he wants 'X' life without consulting you about it, and now he's getting angry that you're not towing the line he created in his head.

My advice? Sit down with him and lay out exactly what you want, and make it clear you won't budge. Above all else though, I think it'd be best to leave him, however this conversation turns out. You don't gel with him and he wants fundamentally different things than you do. More than that, he's starting to get aggressive and demanding in what he wants, and that'll never go well for you. Get out of dodge, it's pretty obvious he changed gears at some point and never told you what he really wanted, and now the crippling reality has set in that he can't get what he wants, so he's getting annoyed and pithy with you. Save yourself a lot of trouble, have a talk, but however it goes - and I'm reiterating this because it's important - do not stay with him. He'll end up making your life a misery, and all you'll ever be is the person who ruined his life plans - albeit because you wanted fundamentally different things he seems to have ignored entirely.

Engagement Issues

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