Turbo trouble

sandydan · 13-04-2014 4:16pm #1

toyota avensis dsl .dealer serviced. had turbo replaced at 120,000 km approx, oil was changed 5,000km previous, and was not changed when replacing turbo, had discussion with dealer at time and was told no need.
now 50,000 km later its whining again.:mad:

Sitec · 13-04-2014 4:39pm

has it had a service since?

sandydan · 13-04-2014 4:40pm

its due fourth soon.

Sitec · 13-04-2014 4:41pm

So it hasn't had a service in 55k?

jca · 13-04-2014 4:55pm

Not much of a dealer if he didn't change the oil when changing the turbo. You should have insisted he change it. The cost of a few litres of oil and a filter is tiny when doing an expensive job like that. Was it a new turbo?

sandydan · 13-04-2014 9:18pm

jca wrote: »

Not much of a dealer if he didn't change the oil when changing the turbo. You should have insisted he change it. The cost of a few litres of oil and a filter is tiny when doing an expensive job like that. Was it a new turbo?

new fitted F.O.C.
like i said i had "discussion" re oil change and told him i was prepared to pay for it. took it to other dealer to service it a few weeks later, haven't been to original dealer since
was told by engine recon company sump should have been removed as oil "jeellying" from overdue service at some stage was more than likely cause of turbo trouble , the man who said that, has 02 type with 300,000 miles and takes sump off every 100,000 miles to remove and clean screens
could it also be an injector related issue,heard of d4d with high mileage having some issue caused by injector seating issue damaging turbo.

PADRAIC.M · 13-04-2014 10:07pm

I would recommend draining the current oil through a fine paper/cotton siv, to check for contamination, before I jumped to any conclusion, and replacing turbo without oil and filter is unacceptable...

jca · 13-04-2014 10:28pm

What year is your car? I've never heard of anyone ever removing the sump on an avensis to wash out the oil strainer. Maybe on one of the services the wrong oil was used. There are avensis' s in the job here that have done in excess of 300,000 miles and never had a sump removed or a turbo failure.

sandydan · 14-04-2014 12:51am

it is pre new 10 type model and 3 i know of, had turbo's replaced one got engine replaced all Toyota have good reputation as have their dealers,but this is really annoying me ,hope to get something sorted

sandydan · 14-04-2014 12:57am

Sitec wrote: »

So it hasn't had a service in 55k?

serviced every 15,000km since i got it but one service before i bought it went to around 20,000, but garage said that since turbo was replaced since it's irrelevant,and replacing oil and filter at same time is not a requirement of warranty or so they said. done more research since and turbos are replaced fairly regularly with most turbo repair centres having them on shelf,new €800-€1100 and reconditioned €400 depending on model. quotes from dealerships vary from €2200-€3100+vat, with another replacement model priced at €1100.what difference between them is i don't know fitting €400+vat extra.

jca · 14-04-2014 2:06pm

sandydan wrote: »

serviced every 15,000km since i got it but one service before i bought it went to around 20,000, but garage said that since turbo was replaced since it's irrelevant,and replacing oil and filter at same time is not a requirement of warranty or so they said. done more research since and turbos are replaced fairly regularly with most turbo repair centres having them on shelf,new €800-€1100 and reconditioned €400 depending on model. quotes from dealerships vary from €2200-€3100+vat, with another replacement model priced at €1100.what difference between them is i don't know fitting €400+vat extra.

I don't really understand what version of avensis you have tbh. What do you mean by pre new 10 type model. What annual mileage are you doing? If you're doing small mileage it might be better to shorten the interval to 10,000 km. Oil is cheaper than turbo's. In the job they've been driving the Avensis since the middle 90's and never had a turbo failure.

sandydan · 14-04-2014 3:18pm

it's the avensis aura 2lt dsl saloon,pre new 2010 type with 6 speed box and leds on wing mirrors model came out in 06 i think, i recommended them before but now not sure, some gave trouble im told in seat washers in injectors and caused a carbon build up in sump, that's why removing sump to clean has been suggested
mileage
25,000 km/annum

sandydan · 12-05-2014 7:10pm

replaced turbo, induction rotor was chewed,rest seems okay.pipe from air filter was about 3 mm wider than tubo housing,all it needed was adjustable hose clip to fit correctly, some dust must have got in and did the damage.
i know parts for the IHI turbo can be got on ebay, if rotor was replaced would it be okay by fitting to original shaft, i've been told some shafts don't have the required metal content to absorb heat without wearing as original turbo parts

OldmanMondeo · 12-05-2014 7:16pm

I am getting a whining noise from mine, it seems to be steeming from a leaky back box. Could be similar problem to yours.

sandydan · 12-05-2014 7:24pm

mine was coming from tubo. by taking off air filter pipe it was really bad, you wont hear turbo noises like it anywhere else, it was blatantly obvious where it was from. when ripped out, rotor was in tatters it would have broken shaft if driven another 100km
back box whistling is annoying alright but good welder will repair for a few quid

sandydan · 21-05-2014 10:32pm

new turbo is noticeable when cutting in too and supplier said its normal for make but i haven't heard any other one whining so loud. its an IHI Model wonder has anyone else noticed difference in turbos of same model

greasepalm · 21-05-2014 10:42pm

not into turbos but local taxi man had a 2007 d4d avensis and toyota at that time and onwards said 10w 40 engine oil,as i would have used 5w 30 low ash and it lubes the turbo.he went through 3 turbos and sold it in feb2014.black sludge is not right with toyota.

sandydan · 21-05-2014 11:20pm

two toyotas around locally had turbos replaced, mine is on third in 177,000 km. last one lasted 50,000 km but its rotor was chewed so some thing must have gone into it .
0ne 07 had engine replaced when his turbo gave trouble, havent spoken to him in while but he got impression oil pressure may have been issue.
when did your friend change to 10w 40, and did it make any difference in your opinion?

what im wondering about now, is noticeable whining normal, with some turbo models as you drive along with a little pressure on engine as in going slight uphill pull. never noticed it in any car ive been in and wonder is this "new" turbo faulty too.

ive been truck driving with 33 years and turbo trouble is not heard of with years

greasepalm · 22-05-2014 10:55pm

we argued with toyota dealer engine should be on 5w-30 not 10w-40 ask any turbo centre 5w-30 to be used.

sandydan · 23-05-2014 12:34pm

5w -30 synthetic is all mine ever got and was serviced by main dealer who sold it .
wonder is there a norm for turbo noise, checked mine today and turbo inlet pipe is dry as snuff

jetfiremuck · 23-05-2014 12:48pm

I think 5w-30 is not viscous enough and after shut down after a long run heat soak on the turbo bearings is an issue ( with all turbos). Oil change intervals should be reduced irrespective of makers schedule. I use 15/40w in isuzu turbo diesel.

Chimaera · 23-05-2014 1:10pm

When it comes to oil, sticking with the manufacturer's spec is usually the best course of action.

Anything with a turbo needs synthetic oil, end of story. I've never heard of a 15W40 oil being synthetic - if they exist they're rare.

The weight rating is an indication of viscosity: lower numbers mean less viscous. First number is the cold weight, second is the warm weight. In other words, as a 5W40 oil warms up, it changes from behaving like a 5W oil at low temperatures to behaving like a 40W at high temps. Also remember that viscosity changes with temperature anyway. The idea is that the oil viscosity should remain relatively constant over the engines normal temperature range.

Excessively heavy oils will cause problems at low temperature: more pressure on the oil pump; it'll be harder for oil to get into the smaller spaces too if they're designed to work with a lighter oil. You could end up doing a lot of damage, especially on a car that gets a lot of small trips and doesn't warm up that often.

Use the weight the engine is designed to operate with.

Also, different engines are designed differently: what works in an Isuzu commercial engine won't necessarily be suitable for a passenger car engine in a Toyota.

If your car has a DPF fitted, you need to use a low-ash oil: a small amount of oil is always going to get into the intake tract via the turbo and the crankcase vent and get combusted. Oils with a high ash content will clog up your DPF and ruin it. Most low-ash oils are 5W30.

Finally, not all oils are created equal: manufacturers often have additional specifications on top of the viscosity e.g. VW's 505.01, 506.00, etc. These specs will have additional requirements for stuff like shear stability, detergent behaviour, diesel/petrol specificity. If the manufacturer has a spec, it's not for ****s and giggles.

sandydan · 23-05-2014 1:19pm

there must be something in that.but in my opinion there may be oil quality issues as well in same oil brand recommended for use.
05 avensis i had before was on 10w-40 semi and had 160,000 miles no problem barring air conditioning unit and seat rachets.i heard a fella say he stopped using 5w30 syn and switched to 10w-40 after his hydraulic tappits started noising more than normal , solved issue-cant remember what car make- but his garage told him, he was wrong.
met a garage man and asked him about British imports by main dealerships of new cars if(irish market) models not available ,and he said it happens often and in his opinion they are far better than models produced for Irish market. i remember posting thread on such and was told it was a load of ;;;;;;; while others agreed to varying degrees as well you can read response to same on thread of Oil Brand Choice i think

sandydan · 23-05-2014 1:40pm

jetfiremuck wrote: »

I think 5w-30 is not viscous enough and after shut down after a long run heat soak on the turbo bearings is an issue ( with all turbos). Oil change intervals should be reduced irrespective of makers schedule. I use 15/40w in isuzu turbo diesel.

i heard of imported tractor engine having an oil bottle for preventing damage to turbo recently after engine shut off oil keeps feeding into turbo until it stops turning, must go see it if its still around. this is pressure filled off engine oil pump i was told
having fitted third turbo im certainly reducing oil change interval , as well i leave engine run for at least a minute before shutting off,if that's any good
I know of passat turbo working poorly until some sensor was cleaned regularly maybe Dsl quality is problem there.
new turbo i fitted has slight whine and im trying to find out if that is normal

TGi666 · 23-05-2014 4:36pm

sandydan wrote: »

i heard of imported tractor engine having an oil bottle for preventing damage to turbo recently after engine shut off oil keeps feeding into turbo until it stops turning, must go see it if its still around. this is pressure filled off engine oil pump i was told
having fitted third turbo im certainly reducing oil change interval , as well i leave engine run for at least a minute before shutting off,if that's any good
I know of passat turbo working poorly until some sensor was cleaned regularly maybe Dsl quality is problem there.
new turbo i fitted has slight whine and im trying to find out if that is normal

something like this?
http://www.rimmerbros.co.uk/Item--i-GRID010649

sandydan · 23-05-2014 5:25pm

well done i wouldn't have copped it in a fit, wonder what oil feed point that works off, was expecting to see T valve for filling container at/near oil inlet point on turbo. very rational explanation too for oil damage in turbo at stopping and starting time. wonder if there's adequate overhead room for mounting over turbo in avensis engine bay

Chimaera · 23-05-2014 6:40pm

A device like that is overkill in a normal turbodiesel car. If you're losing turbos you need to look at how the car is being maintained. If the car made it to 120000 km on the original, then it's not a faulty part or a problem with heatsoak at shutdown: both those problems would show up far sooner.

I'd guess most of the blame for the second failure can be laid at the door of the mechanic who changed the first one not changing the oil and filter at the time.

sandydan · 24-05-2014 1:50am

i know of D4Ds with over 300,000 miles on clock with similar servicing on 10w-40 all had turbo why change in life expectancy with change to fully Syn 5w-30 and not just one engine having similar problem,is oil pressure an issue here

visual · 24-05-2014 4:12am

Renault laguna II are bad with turbos.
Nearly every one has had the turbo replaced before 100k and some owners are on 2nd or 3rd turbo.

The laguna was sold with 18,000 mile oil change interval from new. But with so many issues it was later recommended to do oil change at 10,000 miles. But for many the damage was done in the first few years with extended service intervals and changing to shorter interval was too little too late.

The problem was turbo shaft wear causing the seals to fail.

I wouldn't stray from manufacturer oil spec but I think more importantly is regular oil changes.

When turbo is replaced all gaskets should also be replaced and oil feed pipes should be cleaned. Intercooler checked for oil and leaks and erg valve cleaned.

Sir Arthur Daley · 24-05-2014 4:15am

[QUOTE=visual;90528234 erg valve cleaned.[/QUOTE]

Would you be better off blanking off the egr?

gctest50 · 24-05-2014 4:28am

vaguely related :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

Miles on Original Turbocharger before replacement:107,800 Miles approx

Miles on 2nd Turbocharger before replacement: 937 miles

Miles on 3rd Turbocharger before failure: 350 miles

greasepalm · 24-05-2014 9:55am

oil feed or lack of related?

sandydan · 24-05-2014 12:49pm

i did wonder on best way to widen debate to turbos of other makes .
I heard something similar prediction on BMW ,as i understood ,service interval are around 20,000 km, and turbo life was being debated the point being made was the basically, engines are still the same but additions like turbos ,DPFs,etc so chemical additives are used to extend oil life, not always to engines benefit,Ford also feature in turbo related debates as i believe does Peugeot, most car makers are buying turbos on Tender process.
Battery life is another issue .a visitor to a battery manufacturer plant told me in his opinion if plates were kept up a quarter inch from battery base they would last 20 years but are measured and set in such a way that as they wear bits fall off and when they make contact at base that cell is rendered useless.
so are we looking at market policy of Designed to Fail and we as consumers are [paying the price

jca · 24-05-2014 4:03pm

sandydan wrote: »

i did wonder on best way to widen debate to turbos of other makes .
I heard something similar prediction on BMW ,as i understood ,service interval are around 20,000 km, and turbo life was being debated the point being made was the basically, engines are still the same but additions like turbos ,DPFs,etc so chemical additives are used to extend oil life, not always to engines benefit,Ford also feature in turbo related debates as i believe does Peugeot, most car makers are buying turbos on Tender process.
Battery life is another issue .a visitor to a battery manufacturer plant told me in his opinion if plates were kept up a quarter inch from battery base they would last 20 years but are measured and set in such a way that as they wear bits fall off and when they make contact at base that cell is rendered useless.
so are we looking at market policy of Designed to Fail and we as consumers are [paying the price

Don't reduce it to a conspiracy theory argument. People are buying diesels and not doing the mileage to get the oil hot enough to boil off the water vapour and general condensation within the engine while sticking to already optimistic manufacturers servicing intervals. Penny wise and pound foolish. Unfortunately I've been that soldier. Car batteries are lasting longer than they ever did, they fail suddenly not like the old days which can be very inconvenient.

Chimaera · 24-05-2014 4:14pm

A large part of the problem is an attitude that cars haven't changed in the last 30 years and owners and mechanics treat them the same way they did then. Car technology has moved on hugely in the last 30 years and modern cars DO NOT TOLERATE SLOPPY MAINTENANCE AT ALL. If you deviate from the manufacturer's instructions, you're inviting trouble.

Couple that with people buying cars that are not suitable for their use cases (diesels for town use mainly) and it's a growing problem.

sandydan · 24-05-2014 4:23pm

jca wrote: »

Don't reduce it to a conspiracy theory argument. People are buying diesels and not doing the mileage to get the oil hot enough to boil off the water vapour and general condensation within the engine while sticking to already optimistic manufacturers servicing intervals. Penny wise and pound foolish. Unfortunately I've been that soldier. Car batteries are lasting longer than they ever did, they fail suddenly not like the old days which can be very inconvenient.

point taken,:)
the battery issue opinion is not mine, his point is they could last years longer if manufacturers wished
re turbo issue they will be fitted to more petrol engines too so service intervals and oil choice will become more important, any way some recon its your luck or lack of, the car you buy will either give turbo issues or never will so is that a manufacturing issue,parts supplier or whatever,

jca · 24-05-2014 4:25pm

Chimaera wrote: »

A large part of the problem is an attitude that cars haven't changed in the last 30 years and owners and mechanics treat them the same way they did then. Car technology has moved on hugely in the last 30 years and modern cars DO NOT TOLERATE SLOPPY MAINTENANCE AT ALL. If you deviate from the manufacturer's instructions, you're inviting trouble.

Couple that with people buying cars that are not suitable for their use cases (diesels for town use mainly) and it's a growing problem.

Even manufacturers service intervals are pushing oils to their limits especially in short trip cars. The long and the short of it is that modern diesels need to be doing the mileage to avoid expensive problems further down the line.

sandydan · 24-05-2014 4:27pm

gctest50 wrote: »

vaguely related :

http://www.assuredperformance.ie/assets/images/Presentation-1.6-hdi-carbo-issues.pdf

that's a real eye opener of service related problems must try downloading and show it dealer ,

visual · 24-05-2014 4:48pm

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Would you be better off blanking off the egr?

On old diesels it was a good option but not always. The ECU controls the egr and just blanking it out cause warning lights to pop on.
This can be overcome by programming out egr errors.

Most egr fail because they are clogged up with coke usually made worse by turbo leaking oil into engine intake.

Personally I try keep the egr unless you know for certain that its a good mod for your engine.

Landrover discovery owners often do it and it improves the engine but they are old unrefined lumps.

The Egr doesn't make carbon / coke build up so if it need regular cleaning or replacement there is a underlining problem with engine usually its burning oil

but with repeated turbo fault I would be looking at oil pipes oil pump and gasket seals

I drove a renault diesel with coked up egr for 6 months before realising. I was tracking down why it sometimes stalled when moving off from stop that it cut out. I had presumed renault dealer cleaned or checked it when they fleece me for 2,300 euro for turbo and intercooler repair.

All I can say about main dealers is they are expensive

sandydan · 24-05-2014 9:15pm

Chimaera wrote: »

A device like that is overkill in a normal turbodiesel car. If you're losing turbos you need to look at how the car is being maintained. If the car made it to 120000 km on the original, then it's not a faulty part or a problem with heatsoak at shutdown: both those problems would show up far sooner.

I'd guess most of the blame for the second failure can be laid at the door of the mechanic who changed the first one not changing the oil and filter at the time.

120,000 km is only equivalent to 72,000 miles car serviced at 15,000km/9,000miles by main dealer. only thing i noted looking over service record is car was serviced when i purchased it 20,000km/12,000 miles after previous service,so car was probably traded and not serviced until i purchased it.in view of item posted by GCTEST50 could oil carbonise and create problem similar, even though i would venture guessing carbon in injector ports would signify some contribution by dsl problem or impurities eg washed diesel,
BTW i offered to pay for extra service,told no need as serviced 2,000 km previously and told that servicing with change of turbo is not requirement of 12 month warranty on turbo

jca · 25-05-2014 11:55am

sandydan wrote: »

120,000 km is only equivalent to 72,000 miles car serviced at 15,000km/9,000miles by main dealer. only thing i noted looking over service record is car was serviced when i purchased it 20,000km/12,000 miles after previous service,so car was probably traded and not serviced until i purchased it.in view of item posted by GCTEST50 could oil carbonise and create problem similar, even though i would venture guessing carbon in injector ports would signify some contribution by dsl problem or impurities eg washed diesel,
BTW i offered to pay for extra service,told no need as serviced 2,000 km previously and told that servicing with change of turbo is not requirement of 12 month warranty on turbo

I think you really should consider going to another garage.

sandydan · 25-05-2014 1:31pm

well as i said earlier i did have a "discussion" re turbo fitting without changing oil and filters,with that main dealer,went to another toyota main dealer to service a few weeks after,haven't been back since .
if link posted by GCTEST 50 is anything to go by however the damage was already done. engine model or make is irrelevant i think, however i also contacted a few other main dealers re fitting new turbo and their response is same, its not requirement of warranty by Toyota to service car when replacing turbo.Toyota Ireland contacted me last week re safety hitch check to be carried out on all(i think) 08 Toyota avensis cars so must get onto a main dealer now for that purpose,
contacted a breaker since and his advice was fit an engine out of crashed car that has original turbo ,for about €1500 its not a bad option,me thinks. was considering fitting newer model engine but he thinks it does not fit ,any views on that. 08 is really too old to trade up by 4 years cost wise (around €15,500)so considering running into ground if it stays going.Corolla approx €13,500

Turbo trouble

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