Sash Window joints altered - window integrity compromised?

plalor · 24-05-2010 11:34pm #1

I have recently had a sash window repaired but the repair work concerns me.
Work was done to replace the bottom of the frame - the whole side from one tennon to the other.
But the sash was not taken apart to fix the new piece to the bottom of the sash.
The mortis and tenon joint was cut open to allow the new piece to slide up the frame into place and is now only held there by glue.
So the tennon now only has 3 solid sides; one above, and one either side of the mortis of the replacement piece of wood.
I'm not sure, but that doesn't sound correct to me because if the glue fails the replacement piece of wood will simply slide back down and out of the frame if gravity kicks in.

I'm not really sure how to rememdy the compromised joint without replacing both sides and bottom of the window - may as well get a whole new sash if I do that.

There's also a second Issue with the repair work - the new piece of timber is actually 2 pieces - one on top of the other. The decoration that meents the pane (about 1cm deep) is pinned to the main body of the new piece.

Just wondering if its right that I'm concerned with the work or is the fix I have described ok?
Will I now have to replace all 3 sides of the sash with the joints compromised- or realistically a whole new sash?

Thanks

kadman · 25-05-2010 12:10am

plalor wrote: »

I have recently had a sash window repaired but the repair work concerns me.
Work was done to replace the bottom of the frame - the whole side from one tennon to the other.
But the sash was not taken apart to fix the new piece to the bottom of the sash.
The mortis and tenon joint was cut open to allow the new piece to slide up the frame into place and is now only held there by glue.
So the tennon now only has 3 solid sides; one above, and one either side of the mortis of the replacement piece of wood.
I'm not sure, but that doesn't sound correct to me because if the glue fails the replacement piece of wood will simply slide back down and out of the frame if gravity kicks in.

I'm not really sure how to rememdy the compromised joint without replacing both sides and bottom of the window - may as well get a whole new sash if I do that.

There's also a second Issue with the repair work - the new piece of timber is actually 2 pieces - one on top of the other. The decoration that meents the pane (about 1cm deep) is pinned to the main body of the new piece.

Just wondering if its right that I'm concerned with the work or is the fix I have described ok?
Will I now have to replace all 3 sides of the sash with the joints compromised- or realistically a whole new sash?

Thanks

What you are describing is the replacement of a mortice and tenon joint, with a bridle joint. Properly executed, and with consideration to the sash size, and using modern adhesives, although its not perfect, it should not give cause for concern.

But the description of the make up of the bottom rail is another issue. It sounds like your repairman has added a slip to form the rebate for the glazing. In this case there is a possibility that if the adhesive used was not waterproof, then you may have an issue with water ingress. So keep an eye on it for the moment. A few pics would be helpful, is it a solid sash or a painted sash.

kadman

del88 · 26-05-2010 10:12pm

Hi
If the proper glue was used then there shouldn't be a problem...modern glues like polyurethane are really strong ...you'll break the timber before the glue would give way.
Stick a pic up if you can....

plalor · 26-05-2010 10:52pm

I've attached a few pics of repair work.

jack of all · 27-05-2010 12:13pm

It's only ok in my book; there's lots of filler and a plant on quadrant which doesn't match the moulding on the rest of the sash (lambs tongue or cyma reversa? can't remember which). If a polyurethane glue was used it'll be fine but it's not an expert repair. Others here with far more expertise will no doubt have more to say.

kadman · 28-05-2010 1:43pm

jack of all wrote: »

It's only ok in my book; there's lots of filler and a plant on quadrant which doesn't match the moulding on the rest of the sash (lambs tongue or cyma reversa? can't remember which). If a polyurethane glue was used it'll be fine but it's not an expert repair. Others here with far more expertise will no doubt have more to say.

Well to follow up on your evaluation, I concur. I will go so far as to say its a **** repair. But as j.o.a. has already pointed out, if the right glue was used, its probably a serviceable repair, and may well do its job.

From looking at it, I would say the repair was carried out by a site orientated carpenter, and not a workshop based joiner. A joiner would have given you a seamless repair, as that is the nature of their craft. Repairing the base rail of a sliding sash is not rocket science, but needs care and attention to detail, to make it an invisible repair.

Looks like a screw up through the bottom of the tenon. To be sure , to be sure:D

dathi · 28-05-2010 3:24pm

have to agree with kadman looks like a carpenter fixed it and not a joiner realy two different trades if you want to make the joint stronger you could drill a small hole from the inside of sash through the tennon and put a screw in it as for the moulding all i can say is dog rough do you have the bottom rail that was removed ? sometimes the rot hasent traveled up to the moulding and you could cut the moulding off and attach it to the new rail

ronboy · 29-05-2010 9:47pm

If that repair job was done for me..I'd blow a gasket and ware the sash off their puss. Pure sh**e repair.
Obviously the person who done it has'nt a clue OR any respect for their work.....:mad::mad:

plalor · 07-06-2010 11:30pm

Thanks for the input lads - I told the carpenter I wasn't happy with it and I think he knew he done a poor job so he has agreed to replace the whole sash - its a shame to lose the original though. I'll be back on if the replacement isn't up to scratch - cheers!

galwaydude18 · 07-06-2010 11:33pm

I hope he is getting a joiner to make you a replacement sash and it's not him making it after that pile of s***e job he did to repair your existing sash! Let us know how the new one looks after you get it and don't pay him a single cent unless you are totally happy with it.

S.L.F · 16-06-2010 9:59am

I work in that area and I constantly come up against this problem.

Repairs cost more than replacing the whole sash.

I can get a sash made for €150 and glazed for €150 with other bit as well would add another couple of hundred but to get me on site to fix a window like this costs just as much as I'd spend all day there and sometimes still at the end of it end up having to reglaze the window .

So while the job could have been done better there's only so much you can do with a sash on site.

Just make sure the characters who fix your sashes are not using Irish soft woods as they won't last kissing time.

Better to use Iroko or what I use is old wood from sashes reclaimed from skips (get lucky somethimes and have the same profile moulding as current job).

(EDIT) Had a look at the pics again and it looks like he used a new soft wood to fix the sash.

Crap job

kadman · 17-06-2010 11:31pm

S.L.F wrote: »

I work in that area and I constantly come up against this problem.

Repairs cost more than replacing the whole sash.

I can get a sash made for €150 and glazed for €150 with other bit as well would add another couple of hundred but to get me on site to fix a window like this costs just as much as I'd spend all day there and sometimes still at the end of it end up having to reglaze the window .

So while the job could have been done better there's only so much you can do with a sash on site.

Just make sure the characters who fix your sashes are not using Irish soft woods as they won't last kissing time.

Better to use Iroko or what I use is old wood from sashes reclaimed from skips (get lucky somethimes and have the same profile moulding as current job).

(EDIT) Had a look at the pics again and it looks like he used a new soft wood to fix the sash.

Crap job

Run that price by me again,

I thought you said,

Sash 150
Glazing 150
Other bits 200

500 euros for a sash.. Am I getting this right.

kadman

S.L.F · 18-06-2010 6:18pm

kadman wrote: »

Run that price by me again,

I thought you said,

Sash 150
Glazing 150
Other bits 200

500 euros for a sash.. Am I getting this right.

kadman

Plus cords, parting beads, staff beads, draught proofing, time taken to do it, possible extra weights possible extra brass fittings, fasteners, pulleys, lifters, ring pulls.

€500 is ok, do you not think so?

kadman · 20-06-2010 10:48pm

As I understood it, it was a sash repair that was being discussed. Not a full window refurb.

I think the OP might live with the poor repair, for the sake of 500 yo yo,s.:D

For a full window refurb, depending on size of course, your quote could be in the ballpark.

kadman

S.L.F · 21-06-2010 1:46am

kadman wrote: »

As I understood it, it was a sash repair that was being discussed. Not a full window refurb.

I think the OP might live with the poor repair, for the sake of 500 yo yo,s.:D

For a full window refurb, depending on size of course, your quote could be in the ballpark.

kadman

They might live with the job for a while but will end up having to fix it again.

A full refurb would cost more than €500 (depending on size and what you want to get done of course)

kadman · 21-06-2010 12:26pm

S.L.F wrote: »

They might live with the job for a while but will end up having to fix it again.

A full refurb would cost more than €500 (depending on size and what you want to get done of course)

So you are saying a sash refurb , and a bit of draught proofing for 500 euros. Sounds too expensive for me. But fair dues if you can get that sort of money for it:)

kadman

S.L.F · 21-06-2010 12:36pm

A length of parting bead can cost €15 ea you need 3 of them for most windows.

A length of staff bead can cost you €20 ea or more you need 3 of them for most windows.

It does not include the 4 pulleys which I have paid €16 each for or the fasteners, the lifters, ring pulls, sash eye pole hook not the pole hook holders.

Nor the draught proofing itself, not the cords, any extra weights that are needed.

kadman · 21-06-2010 8:09pm

S.L.F wrote: »

A length of parting bead can cost €15 ea you need 3 of them for most windows.

A length of staff bead can cost you €20 ea or more you need 3 of them for most windows.

It does not include the 4 pulleys which I have paid €16 each for or the fasteners, the lifters, ring pulls, sash eye pole hook not the pole hook holders.

Nor the draught proofing itself, not the cords, any extra weights that are needed.

As I said fairplay to you.:)

I know what goes into a sliding sash window, all the odds and sods. I,ve made them , and restored many over the years:D

Again, best of luck with your business venture, hope things stay busy for you.

kadman

65bl · 26-06-2010 12:17am

S.L.F wrote: »

Better to use Iroko or what I use is old wood from sashes reclaimed from skips (get lucky somethimes and have the same profile moulding as current job).

Can you source Iroko that is "stable" enough? I have found Iroko in this country to bend & twist despite best efforts to use only the best. I use Meranti or Sapele - just find less come backs with mahogany

bl

kennethj · 02-10-2010 10:48am

Heritage Joinery - Sash Window restoration - Nationwide

Post the following link to your browser to view some of our work

http://picasaweb.google.com/Heritage.Joinery.Ireland/HeritageJoineryPortfolio?feat=directlink

jack of all · 02-10-2010 11:22am

Nice work there, what type of wood do you use for replacement/ new work, is it pressure treated?

kennethj · 02-10-2010 10:56pm

I use sapeli unless other wise stated by the relevant architect. It is not pressure treated, just primed and undercoated prior to finish coat.

laois hibby · 04-10-2010 11:49pm

Can you buy sash material from timber yards here or are the made up from joinery workshops? the reason i ask is you can in scotland from every timber yard, from pulley styles, sills full and half parting beads, baton rods (staff beads) etc as stock. and they all come in 16foot lengths.
I was a joiner specialising in sash and case windows in scotland repairing and replacing a lot for heritage scotland and it was far easier buying what you needed and repairing or replacing as you needed it.
i've been over here now 13 years and as far as i can tell the joinery workshops are manufacturing the parts themselves.
by the way it is all red pine.

Sash Window joints altered - window integrity compromised?

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