Setanta Insurance

rocksolid · 17-04-2014 8:22pm

Paid my premium up front via credit card to my borker, my credit statement has my broker name on the transaction so would i not be in contract with my broker as they took my money...

Should they not be refunding me what months iv left on my policy??

Anyone any ideas?

The Pontiac · 17-04-2014 8:31pm

Some clarity would be in order right now.

70k drivers, and I reckon a lot don't even know they're with Setanta.

I had to check as I got insured via a broker, and never even asked the name of the underwriter. She just gave me the cheapest quote.

Builderfromhell · 17-04-2014 8:37pm

If Setanta took an average premium of 300 euro from each of the 70,000 motorists (210 million) and is now saying it will, likely, not be paying any money out, that's seems like a huge amount of money for doing nothing.
Why should I, legally, have to pay another insurance company about 500 euro when they can dis-appear also

oldyouth · 17-04-2014 8:56pm

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If Setanta took an average premium of 300 euro from each of the 70,000 motorists (210 million) and is now saying it will, likely, not be paying any money out, that's seems like a huge amount of money for doing nothing.
Why should I, legally, have to pay another insurance company about 500 euro when they can dis-appear also

Your maths are incorrect

Maphisto · 17-04-2014 9:13pm

NoelDoran wrote: »

Paid my premium up front via credit card to my borker, my credit statement has my broker name on the transaction so would i not be in contract with my broker as they took my money...

Should they not be refunding me what months iv left on my policy??

Anyone any ideas?

I'm wondering as well if you have some redress from your credit card company. Does the Consumer Credit Act apply here as in UK?

Builderfromhell · 17-04-2014 9:14pm

Well spotted ; 21 million.
Still seems like a nice earner to collect insurance premiums and then say you wont pay out.
Makes the insurance business look like a big scam:rolleyes:

oldyouth · 17-04-2014 9:18pm

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Well spotted ; 21 million.
Still seems like a nice earner to collect insurance premiums and then say you wont pay out.
Makes the insurance business look like a big scam:rolleyes:

I'm no apologist for Setanta but it stands to reason that if they hadn't already parted with in excess of the €21m they took in, they would still be here 'scamming' more punters

Liam McPoyle · 17-04-2014 9:21pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

This could get intertesting.

It's possible if a Broker recommended Setanta he/she should have checked out their claims paying ability beforehand.

I wonder could brokers find themselves liable for the balance of premiums?

All brokers would have professional indemnity insurance anyway which is there to cover themselves however there isnt a hope it would come to that anyway.

Builderfromhell wrote: »

If Setanta took an average premium of 300 euro from each of the 70,000 motorists (210 million) and is now saying it will, likely, not be paying any money out, that's seems like a huge amount of money for doing nothing.
Why should I, legally, have to pay another insurance company about 500 euro when they can dis-appear also

Well firstly the insurer will have to pay tax on every premium taken so thats a massive chunk gone. Operating costs ie rent, wages etc takes another big chunk. Claims already paid out on takes another chunk.

Not a whole lot of the €21 million left after all that.

leitrim1 · 17-04-2014 9:47pm

I'm not at all surprised by their collapse.

I had my van insured with them. It was an open drive policy. Last year we had an accident and it was our fault. We knew the other driver that we crashed in to. They were prepared to accept €1500 in full and final settlement through both of our solicitors. I conveyed this message in writing to my broker and on to Setanta. Word came back to stay out of it and let Setanta deal with it so we did. About 4 months later we got an e mail from the broker to say the matter had been settled for €14,000. What a bunch of idiots !

Then at renewal they tried to make it a condition that the driver who had the accident could not drive the vehicle in future because the claim was over €10,000. We protested and resent all the e mails stating that the matter could be settled for €1500 and that we would not go away quietly. Within a few hours they gave in.

Pretzill · 17-04-2014 10:01pm

leitrim1 wrote: »

I'm not at all surprised by their collapse.

I had my van insured with them. It was an open drive policy. Last year we had an accident and it was our fault. We knew the other driver that we crashed in to. They were prepared to accept €1500 in full and final settlement through both of our solicitors. I conveyed this message in writing to my broker and on to Setanta. Word came back to stay out of it and let Setanta deal with it so we did. About 4 months later we got an e mail from the broker to say the matter had been settled for €14,000. What a bunch of idiots !

Then at renewal they tried to make it a condition that the driver who had the accident could not drive the vehicle in future because the claim was over €10,000. We protested and resent all the e mails stating that the matter could be settled for €1500 and that we would not go away quietly. Within a few hours they gave in.

Strange that similar story here claimed full responsibility the final settlement no injuries was eye watering - But perhaps that the case with all insurance claims - I don't know - first ever claim - so had no experience of what to expect.

leitrim1 · 17-04-2014 10:07pm

Pretzill wrote: »

Strange that similar story here claimed full responsibility the final settlement no injuries was eye watering - But perhaps that the case with all insurance claims - I don't know - first ever claim - so had no experience of what to expect.

Hi Pretzill

I'm not with you. Can you expand ?

Pretzill · 17-04-2014 10:16pm

leitrim1 wrote: »

Hi Pretzill

I'm not with you. Can you expand ?

Just that after a crash I was stunned by the final amount of the settlement for the other party - now obviously setanta footed the bill - and covered the losses to both parties - our claim was circa 4k (covering the vehicle loss right off) other party was almost ten times that - at the end of the day we were just relieved it was dealt with - thought the settlement was rather high though.

leitrim1 · 17-04-2014 10:21pm

Pretzill wrote: »

Just that after a crash I was stunned by the final amount of the settlement for the other party - now obviously setanta footed the bill - and covered the losses to both parties - our claim was circa 4k (covering the vehicle loss right off) other party was almost ten times that - at the end of the day we were just relieved it was dealt with - thought the settlement was rather high though.

With you now.

Yep that's true. In our case where there could have been a minor settlement you would think they would have grabbed the opportunity. We even offered to pay it ourselves and not to bother them at all but seemingly they wanted to be involved. We regret not just paying it ourselves as it is causing endless grief as it now has to be disclosed while getting all quotes.

Henry Ford III · 17-04-2014 11:17pm

Coleman Slawski wrote: »

All brokers would have professional indemnity insurance anyway which is there to cover themselves however there isnt a hope it would come to that anyway...

A PI claim is pretty catastrophic as regards getting future cover, and besides a hefty excess is normal on such policies - several thousand € normally.

oldyouth · 18-04-2014 8:11am

An insurance broker couldn't be held liable for trading with a licenced insurer, particularly when it would have no access to the sensitive financial information of that insurer.

Setanta announced a run off of it's business some months ago and that is a regular occurrence in Ireland. For any broker to start telling it's clients to immediately cancel their policies mid-term, could have opened them up to claims of defamation.

thehippychippy · 18-04-2014 9:04am

I tried to contact my brokers yesterday and got a recorded message not verbatim but along the lines of " because we're inundated with inquiry's right now we can't answer your call, we're trying to sort this out so leave your name, number and email address and we'll contact you regards cover or check our blog for updates." Nobody answering the phone this morning and can't find their blog so don't know if I'm still covered or not. Have a load of timber to pick up to keep me busy over the weekend too!

punisher5112 · 18-04-2014 9:08am

From what they are saying cover is gone.

TrailerBob · 18-04-2014 9:10am

Just spoke with my broker, and my commercial van policy is valid until Tuesday anyway. He's trying to get a company to take the business at short notice but not the best weekend for that...

thehippychippy · 18-04-2014 9:12am

thehippychippy wrote: »

I tried to contact my brokers yesterday and got a recorded message not verbatim but along the lines of " because we're inundated with inquiry's right now we can't answer your call, we're trying to sort this out so leave your name, number and email address and we'll contact you regards cover or check our blog for updates." Nobody answering the phone this morning and can't find their blog so don't know if I'm still covered or not. Have a load of timber to pick up to keep me busy over the weekend too!

Got through to my broker and he said I'm still covered, they have emergency insurance with liberty insurance so nothing to worry about at the moment, tell be in contact with me next week re future cover

Henry Ford III · 18-04-2014 9:35am

oldyouth wrote: »

An insurance broker couldn't be held liable for trading with a licenced insurer, particularly when it would have no access to the sensitive financial information of that insurer.

Setanta announced a run off of it's business some months ago and that is a regular occurrence in Ireland. For any broker to start telling it's clients to immediately cancel their policies mid-term, could have opened them up to claims of defamation.

That's incorrect I reckon.

My recent motor renewal certainly mentioned choice of insurer and claims paying ability.

If someone suggests that a business is likely fold, and it then folds, means they were correct. That therefore can't be defamatory.

smokey20 · 18-04-2014 9:42am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's incorrect I reckon.

My recent motor renewal certainly mentioned choice of insurer and claims paying ability.

If someone suggests that a business is likely fold, and it then folds, means they were correct. That therefore can't be defamatory.

Oldyouth's comment is correct I reckon.

And if someone suggests a business is "likely" to fold and said business does not fold, it is "likely" that the person/business who suggested such defamatory comments will face defamatory litigation proceedings.

Best practice is not to suggest such things in the first place.

passremarkable · 18-04-2014 9:52am

Funny set up was setanta by the sounds of it, take on higher riskier policy holders for low premiums and expect to survive ... Never going to work

Brutal business model...

Was always coming

Henry Ford III · 18-04-2014 10:07am

smokey20 wrote: »

Oldyouth's comment is correct I reckon.

And if someone suggests a business is "likely" to fold and said business does not fold, it is "likely" that the person/business who suggested such defamatory comments will face defamatory litigation proceedings.

Best practice is not to suggest such things in the first place.

Best practice would have been to arrange alternative cover, and a refund of remainder of the premium from Setanta surely?

Builderfromhell · 18-04-2014 10:09am

I was thinking of all the Setanta (un-insured) drivers who will be travelling this weekend, a weekend where statistically people are more likely to have an accident. We could see the first court case for someone getting prosecuted for not being insured owing to Setanta's collapse.

Fred Swanson · 18-04-2014 10:11am

This post has been deleted.

djimi · 18-04-2014 10:19am

Builderfromhell wrote: »

I was thinking of all the Setanta (un-insured) drivers who will be travelling this weekend, a weekend where statistically people are more likely to have an accident. We could see the first court case for someone getting prosecuted for not being insured owing to Setanta's collapse.

It would be interesting to see how it is played out, but I would think that unless the insurer or broker wrote to the customer to formally cancel their policy then I dont see how the customer could be prosecuted for driving uninsured.

To be perfectly honest, the only reason I know about this is because I read this forum. I dont listen to national radio and I dont read Irish newspapers. I know Im probably in the minority, but its entirely that Setanta customers out there do not know the score.

smokey20 · 18-04-2014 10:29am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Best practice would have been to arrange alternative cover, and a refund of remainder of the premium from Setanta surely?

Best practice for an insurance broker is to offer their clients the most competitive quotation, with the correct cover from a reputable, licensed and regulated insurance company.

There is nothing in this Setanta fiasco to assume that insurance brokers were not acting ethically and with best intentions at all times...

Iansheridan · 18-04-2014 10:42am

Just to confirm, insuremyvan.ie will be open all open all weekend. 01-6606900

Mc Love · 18-04-2014 10:43am

thehippychippy wrote: »

Got through to my broker and he said I'm still covered, they have emergency insurance with liberty insurance so nothing to worry about at the moment, tell be in contact with me next week re future cover

Just got a text this morning from my broker saying Liberty will be covering my policy until the 25th April

smokey20 · 18-04-2014 10:46am

Mc Love wrote: »

Just got a text this morning from my broker saying Liberty will be covering my policy until the 25th April

That is very decent of Liberty to be fair.

I believe other insurers will be doing likewise for other brokers clients.

visual · 18-04-2014 10:49am

passremarkable wrote: »

Funny set up was setanta by the sounds of it, take on higher riskier policy holders for low premiums and expect to survive ... Never going to work

Brutal business model...

Was always coming

is this a fact or opinion ?
Insurance companies aren't getting by, by the skin of their teeth. it's a very lucrative market with good profit margin.
I guess it was aready in trouble and it wasn't big claim payouts that brought it to it's knees.

Mc Love · 18-04-2014 11:06am

smokey20 wrote: »

That is very decent of Liberty to be fair.

I believe other insurers will be doing likewise for other brokers clients.

Was thinking of going to Liberty providing the price is right, although I will wait to see if I am refunded anything from my broker first.

smokey20 · 18-04-2014 11:15am

In my very humble opinion I feel you are very unlikely to get a refund from your broker to be honest.

Liam McPoyle · 18-04-2014 11:22am

visual wrote: »

is this a fact or opinion ?
Insurance companies aren't getting by, by the skin of their teeth. it's a very lucrative market with good profit margin.
I guess it was aready in trouble and it wasn't big claim payouts that brought it to it's knees.

No, it isn't.

Most insurers have a loss ratio in excess of 80%, basically 80% + of what they are taking in is paid out on claims.

Coupled with the day to day operational costs, there isn't a whole lot of room for profits.

People do not seem to realise just how much gets paid out in claims by all insurers annually.

When you see reports of multi million payouts for catastrophic injury claims,where do you think that money comes from?

H3llR4iser · 18-04-2014 11:27am

FullblownRose wrote: »

I wondered about that!

This is bonkers! I mean...does this set some kind of precedent, what if other companies go to the wall? Quinn are gone and now Setanta are gone. For something like motor insurance there should be a level of reliability and trust..?

It is a royal **** up on the part of the government/ministry of transportation/RSA.

I would be the last to jump on the "blame the gubbernment" bandwagon, as most of the times it's just an excuse people use to avoid facing their own responsibilities, but on something essential and mandatory like vehicle insurance there HAS TO BE a contingency plan in place. Insurance companies are businesses afterall, and they can and do go belly up from time to time.

Most advanced countries have legislation that prevents situations like the Setanta flop making current policies valid until their natural expiration date, independently from the insurer company status, and design alternate insurances/financial institutions that will pick up the tab should such an emergency arise; These companies will then be refunded using a fund similar to the MIBI.

Going to the media with "Customers should arrange new coverage" is an absolute joke that nobody should accept; I am frankly shocked about the absurd amount of "bending over and taking it" that people are engaging in right now, up to and including the utterly idiotic "It costed less than other companies, it was bound to fail, you were silly to get insured with them" position.

Kudos to these brokers who had emergency insurance in place even before this happened, they clearly know their business field very well and were looking much further ahead than anybody else.

Last thought: seeing the lack of legislation and total "far west" attitude of zero protection towards the motorist on the part of the Government, it is clear that paying for insurance in one yearly solution is not a very wise option. I did it last October (with Axa), will never do it again. Monthly is the way - anything happens, you cancel the DD and move on.

Henry Ford III · 18-04-2014 11:39am

smokey20 wrote: »

Best practice for an insurance broker is to offer their clients the most competitive quotation, with the correct cover from a reputable, licensed and regulated insurance company.

There is nothing in this Setanta fiasco to assume that insurance brokers were not acting ethically and with best intentions at all times...

You forgot to include financially stable.

What possible service or benefit is there in placing business and clients premiums with a company that's financially unsound?

Henry Ford III · 18-04-2014 12:03pm

http://www.centralbank.ie/regulation/processes/consumer-protection-code/Documents/Consumer%20Protection%20Code%202012.pdf

Well worth a read. It mentions due diligence. If any insurer announces it's closing for new business questions should be asked.

If, as has happened here, the insurer folds and the client is left forking out additional premiums I'd certainly be asking the intermediary why they didn't act beforehand.

No Pants · 18-04-2014 12:59pm

Any chance of another levy, similar to PMPA & Quinn?

smokey20 · 18-04-2014 1:11pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You forgot to include financially stable.

What possible service or benefit is there in placing business and clients premiums with a company that's financially unsound?

True, however I was not aware (and couldn't be bothered looking further in to it) there was any prior knowledge that Setanta were not financially stable as to not be able to honour claims on existing policies. The fact they stopped taking on new policies and were not offering renewals does not point to them not have reserves to cover current or future claims on policies they are running down.

All joking aside, yes, with the announcement a number of months ago that Setanta were running down the policies they have, not offering renewals, nor taking new business, brokers holding a book of Setanta business should have had a contingency plan in place, should this (prior to news breaking yesterday) very unlikely scenario occur.... However, as posted by someone a few posts back, some brokers have arranged temporary cover with Liberty and I know of another broker that has arranged temporary cover with Zurich, so this might lead me to think that indeed some brokers did have a contingency plan in place.

Ogham · 18-04-2014 2:49pm

All policies are still valid - but obviously less chance of getting a full payout on a claim.
There is an Insurance Compensation Fund that could be used - but it looks like max payout from that is 65% and not for business customers.

See http://www.moneyguideireland.com/what-happens-if-you-are-affected-by-setanta-insurance-collapse.html

Also says there might be a chance of getting refunds if you paid by credit/debit card from your card provder via chargeback.

fleetman · 18-04-2014 3:15pm

This article is incorrect see notice from central bank below. I think this info was taken from the releases back in Jan when they stopped quoting

Setanta Insurance Limited (Setanta) is a Maltese incorporated company subject to prudential supervision in Malta by the Maltese Financial Services Authority (MFSA). Its financial position is not supervised by the Central Bank of Ireland and the Central Bank has no role in that regard.

The Central Bank of Ireland was notified by the MFSA on 16 April that the shareholders of Setanta have resolved to wind up the company. This is a process that will take place in Malta overseen by the MFSA.

The Central Bank will require Setanta to write to all policyholders to advise them of the situation and its implications for them.

Setanta is not in a position to confirm that claims will be met in full since any and all claims will be subject to the relevant liquidation process. Policyholders should therefore make arrangements for alternative cover without delay.

Ogham · 19-04-2014 11:29am

fleetman wrote: »

This article is incorrect see notice from central bank below. I think this info was taken from the releases back in Jan when they stopped quoting

What bit is incorrect?

Builderfromhell · 20-04-2014 9:33am

Any more news on the Setanta car insurance situation. I have not heard anything

Ogham · 20-04-2014 9:48am

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Any more news on the Setanta car insurance situation. I have not heard anything

You are still legally insured - but any claims made are not guaranteed to be paid.

There is a Central Bank fund which can be called on to pay upto 65% of a claim in the event of a company becoming insolvent. Can't really rely on this though or you could be out of pocket.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/what-happens-if-you-are-affected-by-setanta-insurance-collapse.html

Probably best to start looking for new cover fairly soon and put in a request for refund of any premiums alrerady paid to Setanta .

fleetman · 20-04-2014 10:52am

What bit is incorrect?

the money guide article quotes don't seem correct when compared to the statements from setanta and central bank.

Builderfromhell · 20-04-2014 12:14pm

Ogham wrote: »

You are still legally insured - but any claims made are not guaranteed to be paid.

There is a Central Bank fund which can be called on to pay upto 65% of a claim in the event of a company becoming insolvent. Can't really rely on this though or you could be out of pocket.

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/what-happens-if-you-are-affected-by-setanta-insurance-collapse.html

Probably best to start looking for new cover fairly soon and put in a request for refund of any premiums alrerady paid to Setanta .

Thanks for this Ogham. I paid for my car insurance in feb. with a credit card over the phone with my broker. It seems I may be eligible for cashback.

oldyouth · 20-04-2014 12:31pm

Builderfromhell wrote: »

Thanks for this Ogham. I paid for my car insurance in feb. with a credit card over the phone with my broker. It seems I may be eligible for cashback.

Mmm! not trying to complicate things and I don't know the answer to this one. Are you entitled for a rebate from your credit card company if you paid your broker rather than your insurer? Your broker hasn't gone bust and I presume they passed on the premium to to your insurer on their monthly account

Builderfromhell · 20-04-2014 12:36pm

oldyouth wrote: »

Mmm! not trying to complicate things and I don't know the answer to this one. Are you entitled for a rebate from your credit card company if you paid your broker rather than your insurer? Your broker hasn't gone bust and I presume they passed on the premium to to your insurer on their monthly account

That did occur to me. In which case there could be legal complications. I would imagine ringing my broker will still be difficult as they must be inundated with phone queries.

oldyouth · 20-04-2014 2:37pm

It's a big mess all round and I don't think anyone knows the definitive situation or I'm sure the Regulator would have published something by now

lighterman · 22-04-2014 7:27am

As the title says i'm with setanta through a broker so i was wondering as setanta have finished up are the brokers obliged to continue on the rest of the policy free of charge to myself.

They rang me last week and said they would put me on a temporary policy for the long weekend and would ring me this week to sort out a new annual policy.

I was told that the broker have to honour the policy as technically i took out the policy with the broker therefore its there responsibility.

I haven't a clue when it comes to these things so i'm hoping for some advice here.I have 6 months left on the policy.

**Setanta Insurance**

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Setanta Insurance