[Article] Limerick rail link to airport ruled out in study

Navan Junction · 23-10-2007 7:37am #1

Irish Times, Tue, Oct 23, 2007

Consultants say cost of project would be €700m

Gordon Deegan

The prospect of a rail link to Shannon airport from Limerick appeared doomed yesterday following confirmation by the Minister for Transport, Noel Dempsey, that Iarnród Éireann has no plans to undertake any further work on the proposal at this stage.

In reply to a parliamentary question Mr Dempsey stated that a feasibility study carried out on behalf of Iarnród Éireann, with input from a steering group representative of local interests, concluded that the economic case for the rail link is poor.

Stating that the rail link is not included in the Government's Transport 21 programme, Mr Dempsey told Limerick East Fine Gael TD Kieran O'Donnell that Iarnród Éireann "has no plans to undertake any further work on the proposal at this stage".

The feasibility study by MVA Consultants has put a cost of €700 million on constructing the rail link. However, this has been disputed by the locally-based Shannon Rail Partnership which claims that the rail link will cost €240 million.

Business development manager with Iarnród Éireann Jim Gallivan confirmed that the feasibility study found that "the costs of the construction of the rail link are out of proportion to the benefits to be gained".

Mr Gallivan said: "Milan has three airports and no rail link with a population of eight to 10 million and the greater Limerick-Shannon area has a population of 150,000 and the current population densities do not justify the project at the moment.

"The figures don't stack up and maybe in 15 to 20 years' time, the population density might be there," he added.

The draft feasibility study states that "in the early years there would be significant deficit on the operating account, but with a buoyant air travel market for the whole 30-year period, revenues could potentially cover operating costs, taking a longer-term view".

The Shannon Rail Partnership wrote to former minister for transport Martin Cullen on the need for the rail link and urged him to reserve a line for the development of the rail link in order to avoid houses being built on the line ahead of the population densities being in place in the future.

The draft feasibility study anticipates that there will be adverse environmental and severance impacts, particularly where the line runs through Shannon town.

Shannon Town Council member Cllr Seán Hillery (Fianna Fáil) confirmed yesterday that he did not receive a response from the then minister.

He said: "The Shannon Rail Partnership will be meeting soon and we will be seeking to reactivate our request to freeze the route for rail line development as it would avoid larger costs down the line."

He added: "This is not going to happen this year or next year and will depend on population increases."

© 2007 The Irish Times

lostexpectation · 23-10-2007 8:42am

how long does the (express) bus take?

highlydebased · 23-10-2007 11:31am

lostexpectation wrote: »

how long does the (express) bus take?

Around 30 minutes

The Saint · 23-10-2007 12:10pm

Does the report take into account people communting between Limerick and Shannon town for work and such or is it just based on numbers that would use it for the airport?

Chris_533976 · 23-10-2007 12:14pm

I said this on another forum.

Every airport must have a railway link. Simple as that.

A restructuring of railways around Limerick coupled with this would have been ideal.

Imagine being able to get the train from Cork, Galway or Dublin to Shannon? Would be fantastic, would reduce congestion and would make the airport grow far faster than it is at the moment.

highlydebased · 23-10-2007 12:19pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

A restructuring of railways around Limerick coupled with this would have been ideal.

Imagine being able to get the train from Cork, Galway or Dublin to Shannon? Would be fantastic, would reduce congestion and would make the airport grow far faster than it is at the moment.

That is quite true. Given the current fiasco at the airport, the department more than likely do not want to do anything of benefit....

BendiBus · 23-10-2007 1:55pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I said this on another forum.

Every airport must have a railway link. Simple as that.

A restructuring of railways around Limerick coupled with this would have been ideal.

Imagine being able to get the train from Cork, Galway or Dublin to Shannon? Would be fantastic, would reduce congestion and would make the airport grow far faster than it is at the moment.

How fantastic?
By how much would congestion be reduced?
How much airport growth would the rail link generate?

Ballpark figures will be fine.

bk · 23-10-2007 2:29pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Imagine being able to get the train from Cork, Galway or Dublin to Shannon? Would be fantastic, would reduce congestion and would make the airport grow far faster than it is at the moment.

But as someone living in Cork or Dublin, why would I want to when I could fly out of Cork or Dublin airports?

Come on guys, lets get a bit of reality here, people living in Cork or Dublin aren't going to drag their heavy bags onto trains so that they can fly out of Shannon.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can tell you that it wouldn't even dawn on Cork or Dublin people to use Shannon airport.

It is probably better to focus on ensuring good road links between Shannon and Limerick, Galway and Cork.

parsi · 23-10-2007 3:37pm

Having a rail-link to Shannon isn't going to bring in additional routes. It's just going to divert resources from other projects,

Hahn doesn't have a rail-link. Beauvais doesn't have a rail-link. Dublin doesn't have a rail-link. They are all thriving.

The Saint · 23-10-2007 4:39pm

But this line wouldn't be just to serve the airport. There are over 8,500 people living in Shannon who would regularly travel into Limerick city and many many people who commute there to work from Limerick. We these people taken into account in this study. This isn't just a rail link it's a commuter link also.

bk · 23-10-2007 5:04pm

The Saint wrote:

But this line wouldn't be just to serve the airport. There are over 8,500 people living in Shannon who would regularly travel into Limerick city and many many people who commute there to work from Limerick. We these people taken into account in this study. This isn't just a rail link it's a commuter link also.

ROFLOL, Erm, 8500 people is a drop in the ocean, that is a small town, hardly worth building a train line for, it would be ridiculously quite.

As a comparison, €700 million would build you two new Luas lines in Dublin and would probably serve an area of a few hundred thousand.

Folks you need to focus on what is realistic, even if a train line was in place, I'd doubt many people would use it instead of their car. Instead you should focus on ensuring that their is a good road link and a good bus service on it.

dmeehan · 23-10-2007 5:08pm

next step now will be the shannon RAIL stopover, where all trains will have to stop at shannon before continuing onto dublin etc.
:rolleyes:

Schuhart · 23-10-2007 5:15pm

EDIT Oops - I could have just said 'what bk said'.

The Saint wrote: »

But this line wouldn't be just to serve the airport. There are over 8,500 people living in Shannon who would regularly travel into Limerick city and many many people who commute there to work from Limerick. We these people taken into account in this study. This isn't just a rail link it's a commuter link also.

All we have to go on is the press report posted above, but from that I’d take it the answer is yes that was taken into account. The press report says:

In reply to a parliamentary question Mr Dempsey stated that a feasibility study carried out on behalf of Iarnród Éireann, with input from a steering group representative of local interests, concluded that the economic case for the rail link is poor.

and

Mr Gallivan said: "Milan has three airports and no rail link with a population of eight to 10 million and the greater Limerick-Shannon area has a population of 150,000 and the current population densities do not justify the project at the moment.

I would take it that local interests would ensure the commuting possibilities were considered. Tbh, anyone with an interest in rail matters would know that to be the main argument people make for a link. I think you could take the reference to the Limerick-Shannon area population and the lack of density implicitly confirms the study considered commuting possibilities.

The volumes have to be considerable to justify rail. Consider the cost - €700 million is equivalent to the Luas. Even if you take the local advocates’ figure of €240 million you’d have to see considerable volumes to justify the investment. This finding is really not a surprise.

Prof_V · 23-10-2007 7:48pm

Navan Junction wrote: »

Mr Gallivan said: "Milan has three airports and no rail link with a population of eight to 10 million and the greater Limerick-Shannon area has a population of 150,000 and the current population densities do not justify the project at the moment.

Not that it makes any difference to the conclusions in respect of Shannon, but I thought Milan Malpensa had a rail link (indeed, try http://www.malpensaexpress.it/website/malpensa_express/en/home/index.php). I don't think the other Milan airports have direct links, though.

mysterious · 24-10-2007 1:13am

bk wrote: »

ROFLOL, Erm, 8500 people is a drop in the ocean, that is a small town, hardly worth building a train line for, it would be ridiculously quite.

As a comparison, €700 million would build you two new Luas lines in Dublin and would probably serve an area of a few hundred thousand.

Folks you need to focus on what is realistic, even if a train line was in place, I'd doubt many people would use it instead of their car. Instead you should focus on ensuring that their is a good road link and a good bus service on it.

I just had to laugh at how biased your opinion are on this matter. How do you know people won't use it. Or dare I say, I'm replying to a Corkonian who gives an opinion on Shannon. No surprises here.:rolleyes:

If 8,500 is laughing stock... Then you could also say not to bother with a rail line from Midleton to Cork.

Now let's get to some facts.
Shannon is not just a town of around 9,000 people. It's one of Ireland's fastest growing towns. It's a town that employs well over 30,000 people surprisingly many commute to Limerick. Some of the countries biggest employers are located here. It's Ireland's second busiest Airport and grew to over 3.6million last year and this year will be another record breaker.

It's strategically located between two Major cities, Galway and Limerick and both need rail access to the Airport. Shannon Airport is unique In Ireland's case as it's not located outside a major city. And being at least 24km from the nearest city, a rail link is necessary and most logical.

You probably know all this already, but still no harm in pointing a few facts while some are dishing out crap as to why Shannon should not have a rail link etc.

P.s If I were a German Tourist coming to visit the west of Ireland, and I don't wish to rent a car and want to get to the nearesr urban centre quickly, i.e Limerick.

If I had an option how to travel the 24km I think would use the rail link, "

"but hey so many us Irish don't want trains do we"

loyatemu · 24-10-2007 10:43am

Midleton already had a rail link, it was just unused. Not sure how much it is costing to relay it, but I doubt it's anywhere near the €700m quoted above. Brand new railways are hideously expensive and need serious justification in terms of passenger numbers.

bk · 24-10-2007 1:38pm

mysterious wrote: »

I just had to laugh at how biased your opinion are on this matter. How do you know people won't use it. Or dare I say, I'm replying to a Corkonian who gives an opinion on Shannon. No surprises here.:rolleyes:

My opinion isn't biased, it is realistic.

Midleton line is simply reopening an existing line and stations. The total cost of the project is €90 million. If it cost €700 million I'd be completely against it also.

For €700 million you could build two new Luas lines in Dublin and it would serve vastly more people then a Shannon Airport line.

I'm also against building Luas lines in Cork, Limerick and Galway at the moment, as I believe it would also be a waste of money.

I'm a fairly logical and unemotional sort of person, I typically look at these things from a logical point of view, sure it would be cool to have a Luas in Cork, but I know that the population density just isn't there for it yet and that the cost to benefit ratio just isn't there. Likewise I look at a Shannon Rail line and I see an even worse cost to benefit ratio.

markpb · 24-10-2007 1:47pm

bk wrote: »

I'm also against building Luas lines in Cork, Limerick and Galway at the moment, as I believe it would also be a waste of money.

While I agree with you about pretty much everything else, I do think we should be looking seriously at building busways or LRT in Ireland's smaller cities (at least in Cork) before they end up the same way as Dublin where public transport can't be built in a cost efficient way and people have grown up in a car dependant mindset. If nothing else, a decent LRT line would encourage sustainable mid to high density growth along certain corridors. I'd consider it planning for the future rather than a waste of money.

Schuhart · 24-10-2007 2:12pm

mysterious wrote: »

You probably know all this already, but still no harm in pointing a few facts while some are dishing out crap as to why Shannon should not have a rail link etc.

In fairness, a feasibility study has been carried out that supports what we are saying. Hence, I think you'll find 'fact' is on our side.

You, on the other hand, seem reduced to trot out the usual happy clappy parade of unconnected verbiage as if saying everying nice thing you can about Shannon amounts to a case.

bk · 24-10-2007 2:39pm

markpb wrote: »

While I agree with you about pretty much everything else, I do think we should be looking seriously at building busways or LRT in Ireland's smaller cities (at least in Cork) before they end up the same way as Dublin where public transport can't be built in a cost efficient way and people have grown up in a car dependant mindset. If nothing else, a decent LRT line would encourage sustainable mid to high density growth along certain corridors. I'd consider it planning for the future rather than a waste of money.

Oh I agree that we should have LRT in the smaller cities in the future. Right now we should identify and plan for exactly where we want to route those LRT's, retain the land along those routes and promote developers to build high density along the proposed routes.

Similar to what Cork did with the Cork Area Strategic Plan and the new commuter rail lines.

I just think that we aren't at the density suitable for LRT yet in the smaller cities. That is why I think it is so important to plan for it now and encourage high density along the routes so that the density will be there in future.

In the meantime, the bus service should get a massive increase in investment, because at the moment the Cork bus service is shockingly bad. DB is far superior to the Cork bus service!!! and with just a little effort, Cork could actually have a very good bus service as the cork road network is actually quiet good.

mysterious · 25-10-2007 12:06am

Schuhart wrote:

'fact' is on our side.

Schuhart wrote:

You, on the other hand, seem reduced to trot out the usual happy clappy parade of unconnected verbiage as if saying everying nice thing you can about Shannon amounts to a case.

I didn't come here to say spectacular such things about Shannon really. So let's get back on topic.

The figure of 700 Euro million is rediculous. Yes I agree it's not worth paying 700million just for a short rail spur to just to connect the Airport with rest of the country. I should of stated this in my first post.

But I'd like to see it being built at the local advocates’ figure of €240 million. Doubt that will happen though. I personally never believed anything will ever happen after the feasibilty study anyway...

Are there any route selections plans done? Apart from land What is making the cost go up?

Transport21 Fan · 25-10-2007 1:21am

This whole presentation is a beautiful illustration of why I dislike CIE so much.

Apart from the whole arguments about the viability of the Shannon Rail link, look what they compare it to - a city in centre of Europe with several million people at the heart of a major industrial region!

Could they not find an airport and similar town to Shannon among the hundreds of similar examples in the world. No. As usual these people at CIE (let's be honest the "Irish Rail" bit is just a different sticker) find some widely off-the-scale case study to 'prove' their case.

Reminds me of when they said railfreight in Ireland was impossible and then went on to compare our system to the trans-siberian express as if there was nothing else in the world in between. And here they are doing it again with the Shannon link.

This just screams 'we are not interested no matter what' whenever CIE present these totally off-the-scale case studies to politicians. If anything, I am inclined to think that maybe the Shannon Rail Link was more viable than CIE wanted anyone to know about. Remember, they have made Shannon a major customer for CIE's inter-city bus division...

That's Bus Eireann, the other sticker.

Schuhart · 25-10-2007 11:45am

Transport21 Fan wrote: »

Could they not find an airport and similar town to Shannon among the hundreds of similar examples in the world.

I don't know, does any other country have an airport dumped in a location that made sense when aircraft could barely make it across the Atlantic, and then kept on a life support machine regardless of cost to the rest of the country after it ceased to have a role?

If you manage to think of an equivalent, can I suggest some scrutiny might be necessary before we say 'The Burkino Faso international airport is built 200miles from the nearest city, and its monorail maglev is a wonder of the world'.

Transport21 Fan wrote: »

I am inclined to think that maybe the Shannon Rail Link was more viable than CIE wanted anyone to know about.

Intuitively, if the cost is €700 million, there would need to be enormous demand to justify the investment. Even at the 'modest' cost of €240 million there would have to be some very substantial benefits. They could have a pile of Heathrow slots for that cost, FFS.

I'd suggest the feasibility study does exactly what it says on the tin.

Transport21 Fan · 25-10-2007 12:43pm

Schuhart wrote: »

I don't know, does any other country have an airport dumped in a location that made sense when aircraft could barely make it across the Atlantic, and then kept on a life support machine regardless of cost to the rest of the country after it ceased to have a role?

If you manage to think of an equivalent, can I suggest some scrutiny might be necessary before we say 'The Burkino Faso international airport is built 200miles from the nearest city, and its monorail maglev is a wonder of the world'.

See you are doing the same thing. Shannon was located near the Foynes Flying Boat station so there is some logic to it's original location.

Another thing is that there is a massive industrial estate at Shannon employing thousands of people mostly from Limerick and Ennis, a small town of about 9K which is being redeveloped - if you have ever seen the traffic on the road leading into "Shannon" in the morning and outbound in the evenings, it is pretty intense.

I am not buying 100% into this latest CIE report, because A) they have a history of this kind of thing (railfreight) and their constant need to apply bizarre benchmarks via totally off-the-scale other airport/rail scenarios just screams 'kill it off' to me.

I am not saying there is a rock solid case for a Shannon Rail Link, but I have to wonder if the the idea is far more viable than they are letting on.

loyatemu · 25-10-2007 1:58pm

given the poor speeds on the existing Ennis - Limerick line, would the railway be able to compete with the road? A bit of traffic on the way into Shannon is one thing, but there's a motorway between Limerick and Ennis and once the shannon tunnel is complete the airport will be highly accessible from all over the region.

Zoney · 25-10-2007 2:10pm

loyatemu wrote: »

there's a motorway between Limerick and Ennis and once the shannon tunnel is complete the airport will be highly accessible from all over the region.

One has to wonder how a rail link is discounted on the basis of being economically unviable, yet despite traffic volumes not necessitating it in many places - we'll have seamless dual-carriageway/motorway from Shannon Airport to Galway, Tuam, Athlone, Nenagh, etc. Oh I grant it that traffic volumes around Limerick are such that the Ring road and DC out to Ennis is required, and that new decent quality road and bypasses of towns like Gort are required even if traffic volumes are <10,000 AADT. And I do believe in having decent infrastructure even if it's overkill in places.

Of course, it is interesting that traffic volumes from Shannon to the N18 (i.e. the route of the N19), and N18 to Ennis/Limerick do demand dual carriageway. Yes rail couldn't capture a vast percentage of this traffic, but really, if a rail link isn't viable along such a heavily trafficed road corridor, where is rail viable?

It definitely seems though that road projects need no justification - people just see that they "make sense", while the same doesn't go for rail.

And it comes down to this, I do not believe this "study" was remotely objective or careful - I am sure it was carefully arranged to provide a political "look it's not possible" situation. Seriously, looking at the road traffic patterns and infrastructure provided it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Schuhart · 25-10-2007 2:36pm

Transport21 Fan wrote: »

I am not saying there is a rock solid case for a Shannon Rail Link, but I have to wonder if the the idea is far more viable than they are letting on.

But given the cost (even, as I've said, if we take the lower figure of €240 million) it would have to be considerable more viable than common sense dictates.

I don't see a reason to doubt the study on political grounds.

Zoney wrote: »

It definitely seems though that road projects need no justification - people just see that they "make sense", while the same doesn't go for rail.

I think your statement correctly reflects the situation in public debate. By and large, no-one questions roads expenditure.

But our reaction to that, surely, should be to demand that transport projects - whether road or rail - are evaluated objectively on the benefits. The conclusion to be drawn from someone saying 'you want to waste hundreds of millions on roads without any sign of a benefit' is hardly 'lets waste a similar amount on rail without any sign of a benefit'.

Zoney · 25-10-2007 3:07pm

Schuhart wrote: »

The conclusion to be drawn from someone saying 'you want to waste hundreds of millions on roads without any sign of a benefit' is hardly 'lets waste a similar amount on rail without any sign of a benefit'.

But I'm not in fact saying the former - that's the point. I agree with the "it makes sense" attitude to the major roads (well, M3 is a different story, but that's more to do with objection to things like a junction at Blundelstown just to allow unrestricted West Dublin-style development). I consider it quite vital to have our cities connected by decent roads, specifically motorway class roads, even if some route sections do not require such high capacity of roads (note that even on Dublin-Cork the middle section, near Abbeyleix, doesn't require motorway *capacity*). I think there should be a lot more movement on upgrading the N20 Limerick-Cork which is still a goat track in the middle.

As such, I consider that similarly there should be rail routes considered that aren't necessarily economically justified just on the basis of the number of passengers they'll carry (especially to begin with - there should be a longer term view taken).

Schuhart · 25-10-2007 4:43pm

Zoney wrote: »

As such, I consider that similarly there should be rail routes considered that aren't necessarily economically justified just on the basis of the number of passengers they'll carry

I think you need to reflect on this. Effectively, what you are saying is we should spend more on transport than we need to. That just doesn’t make sense, particularly in a context where we have underprovision of plenty of things – including many that have nothing to do with transport.

Why, for the sake of argument, should we have underprovision of educational services for autistic children while we make investments in transport which are not justified in terms of passengers carried? Your statement makes no sense, I’m afraid.

We should invest in transport project that make sense – where the investment yields benefits proportionate to the cost. Anything else is just ludicrous.

Zoney · 25-10-2007 5:00pm

Schuhart wrote: »

Why, for the sake of argument, should we have underprovision of educational services for autistic children while we make investments in transport which are not justified in terms of passengers carried? Your statement makes no sense, I’m afraid.

Actually, people need to be able to get from A to B regardless of how few other people are also going from A to B. Certainly this applies to trips between major cities and so on - examples where, as I point out, even on Dublin-Cork the middle of the route doesn't demand motorway from a capacity point of view. To respond to the moral slant you have introduced (unfairly imo, it's peripheral to the debate - there are a lot of areas money is wasted other than just in transport); people need to get from A to B to access these educational services, health services, etc. It is not like we can provide all services to every part of the country - that is what we are told as services are closed down in the towns and so on. And so we certainly need to be able to quickly and easily travel between places.

To get back to the example of Shannon - people need to be easily able to access an international airport. This is invaluable for the commerce of the region. It is simply not feasible for the entire West and Midwest to have to travel to Dublin or Cork. Sure there is Knock - but it is far more sensible to focus on the more developed Shannon airport, which is better situated, serving Galway and Limerick very well.

My point about comparing with the road network, is that the justifications above are already recognised for road infrastructure. Why not for rail? Except for a political avoidance of public services (one motivated in this country less by economic ideology, but more by avoiding responsibility - being able to blame "market forces" or whatever).

Slice · 25-10-2007 5:11pm

Why should a rail link be built to an airport where passenger numbers are expected to fall as a result of the stopover?

[Article] Limerick rail link to airport ruled out in study

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