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Children : Treating busy street as an area to play

2456

Comments

  • #52
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    It's really more important when you're a driver to worry about what IS there, rather than what should be. Drivers shouldn't run red lights, horses shouldn't get out of fields, stuff shouldn't fall off trucks and so on.

    and children shouldn't be lying under cars in a strangers driveway or out in the dark for hours on end with parents having no clue where they are, but it happens,

    hence why i think responsibility doesn't lie solely with the driver, what about the driver where a two year old (tiny in height) runs out from behind a car straight behind another reversing car? is that really the drivers fault or is it the parents who let their 2 year old roaming the streets?

    these are situations i've witnessed happen here, the next day the same children are out again unsupervised amongst the traffic.

    why it annoys me though is two reasons

    1) there is a designated green area that they don't need to cross a road to get to, AND a tarmac area that was supposed to be a car park for an apartment block not built and thus is empty and perfect to play in as traffic doesn't go through there,

    and

    2) we have a 5 year old and she never once was put in danger like you see some of the other children getting into because we watch her.


  • #53
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    People can't seem to find a spare minute to slow their cars down from the edge of their estate to their house?
    I think you may well have hit the nail on the head there hoodwinked.
    Noone has an issue slowing down in residential areas, within reason.

    It's the idea that motorists have to double up as babysitters that is the matter for concern.


  • #54
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,648 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    SeanW wrote: »
    Noone has an issue slowing down in residential areas, within reason.

    It's the idea that motorists have to double up as babysitters that is the matter for concern.

    You mean,


    Asking motorists to be careful when driving through estates is deemed babysitting in your eyes?

    If you knew there were no kids playing football in an estate would you go flying around?


  • #55
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You mean,


    Asking motorists to be careful when driving through estates is deemed babysitting in your eyes?

    If you knew there were no kids playing football in an estate would you go flying around?

    i wouldn't, BUT as i said above i shouldn't have to ask children to get out from under cars, i shouldn't have to ask them to move so i can pull out, i shouldn't have to walk a toddler to a footpath and ask them to stay there while trying to watch the 4 years olds running around, the 7 year old on the scooter flying down the hill and at the same time keep an eye on my 5 year old and making sure the toddler hasn't run around the front of the car again while their parents are exceptionally busy on facebook posting up pictures of what "great" parents they are for "likes".


  • #56
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    If a child is 2 or 3 years old and they're playing hide and seek underneath cars, crawling around cars that are reversing or otherwise using the roads without a flipping clue what they're doing then yes, the parents are delinquents who are using passing motorists as babysitters.

    I'm not advocating that anyone "fly around" housing areas, just asking for a bit of common sense and proportionality.


  • #57
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,648 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    hoodwinked wrote: »
    i wouldn't, BUT as i said above i shouldn't have to ask children to get out from under cars, i shouldn't have to ask them to move so i can pull out, i shouldn't have to walk a toddler to a footpath and ask them to stay there while trying to watch the 4 years olds running around, the 7 year old on the scooter flying down the hill and at the same time keep an eye on my 5 year old.

    If you ever find this perfect world will you send directions to the rest of us?


  • #58
    hoodwinked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭hoodwinked


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    If you ever find this perfect world will you send directions to the rest of us?

    i found it, it's called building a house in the country with quarter of an acre on all sides between us and other parents! :D


  • #59
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Or the kids who abandon their bikes and scooters in the middle of the road


  • #60
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    I also find that children playing on estates give them a slovenly aura that is detrimental to their intended function as sterile professional boltholes, expertly optimized for punctual motor commuting and estate agent pamphlets should the market continue in buoyancy .


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  • #61
    paulbok
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,989 ✭✭✭paulbok


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Well that's great and all but how exactly do you cook, clean and do the general day to day things that running a house entails in a park or on a beach?

    If you are licenced to drive a dangerous vehicle, it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that you drive as the conditions demand. If there's kids on the road, slow down, stop if you have to, that's it - end of story, no possible exceptions. And especially if you know in ADVANCE that they'll be there.
    If you don't slow down, you are a bad driver and an asshole all rolled into one.


    Very much so.

    But a car driving at it's minimum of say 5-10kmph and with the best driver reactions in the world will still take a second or 2 to stop.
    If a kid runs out from behind a parked car at the wrong time as a car passes, they will get hit and there's nothing the driver will be able to do about it.
    This is where it is the parents responsibility to ensure their kids are either supervised or taught how to play on/around the road safely.

    To say it's completely up to the driver to ensure no-one gets hit is rubbish. The vast majority of the responsibility lies with the driver, no argument there, but the parents/kids need to also take reasonable care.

    Parents & kids also need to remember that there will be drivers that won't slow down, and until self drive cars take over to make sure they do, they need to take precautions, same as they should do in any potentially dangerous situation.


  • #62
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's the idea that motorists have to double up as babysitters that is the matter for concern.

    Are you free Saturday night ?

    All joking aside, it's nothing to do with them being baby sitters, it's about have a bit of sense.


  • #63
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Or the kids who abandon their bikes and scooters in the middle of the road

    Steering wheels. My cars have them.


  • #64
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    God be with the days your parents put the swings and a slide and a sandpit with buckets and toy cars in it, and maybe even a goalpost in the back garden to keep you amused, rather than leaving you out on the road.
    ......,..........

    those ones sometimes grow up to be a bit odd - as in serial killer off sort of thing

    you'd pick it up now n a gain off people


  • #65
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    The only solution to this is miniture american flags for some and abortions for all.


  • #66
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Steering wheels. My cars have them.

    I'm thrilled for you, you must be overjoyed.


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  • #67
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Not really, they've always been there, I'm fairly use to them at this stage. So much so I can use them to drive around obstacles quicker than posting about them on the internet.


  • #68
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Not really, they've always been there, I'm fairly use to them at this stage. So much so I can use them to drive around obstacles quicker than posting about them on the internet.

    Or - here's a mad idea altogether, maybe teach the child not to leave it there incase it's broken?


  • #69
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Are you free Saturday night ?

    All joking aside, it's nothing to do with them being baby sitters, it's about have a bit of sense.
    At extreme levels (i.e. 3 year olds crawling around reversing cars, or many things by unaccompanied children not old enough to understand the safe-cross-code) things do rise to that level of negligence.
    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Steering wheels. My cars have them.
    Not much use if the obstruction is in the middle of the road and there's no room to manoeuvre around it.


  • #70
    Frigga_92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,809 ✭✭✭Frigga_92


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    It's obvious who has no kids on this thread anyway, or those that somehow managed to skip their own childhood going straight from being a baby to a motorist.

    Ah that old gem :rolleyes:


  • #71
    McTigs
    Registered Users Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭McTigs


    the 20kmph speed limit is way to high for an estate, drop it to 5 and there shouldn't be an issue. As somebody said, even in the biggest estate in the country this will add at most a minute or two to the journey...... there is a virtually zero percent chance of hitting anyone when driving at 5k an hour.


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  • #72
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    SeanW wrote: »
    Not much use if the obstruction is in the middle of the road and there's no room to manoeuvre around it.

    Brakes then. They can help you stop enabling you to tell a kid to move the object, or get out and do it yourself (you do remember how to use your legs, or do you need directions on that too?). The long sticky shaped object, or little button in some cases, can be used to stop your car rolling away if you do get out.


  • #73
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Brakes then. They can help you stop, tell a kid to move the object, or get out and do it yourself.

    More babysitting 'others' children. Just tell your kids not to leave their stuff in the middle of the road. It's very easy to tell this to your child do you not think ? It's soo easy of a thing to say, it's a no-brainer.


  • #74
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    More babysitting 'others' children.

    Ah ffs. You've obviously no idea what babysitting means.

    If you're driving down a national road, something falls out the back of a truck that was ahead of you, do you refuse to get out of your car or steer around the obstacle until someone from the company that owns the truck comes back to clear it for you ?

    Not only do driving skills need to be tested when getting a drivers licence, they need to add an IQ test too. And maybe a test to weed out the lazy bastards.


  • #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Akrasia wrote: »


    Any driver who hits a child in a housing estate is 99.9% at fault.

    Absolute BS! I agree it's up to drivers to drive responsibly & be aware that if your in a housing estate there will be kids playing. It's also the parents responsibility to teach their children about road safety or you know they could do something crazy like supervise their child properly.


  • #76
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Ah ffs. You've obviously no idea what babysitting means.

    If you're driving down a national road, something falls out the back of a truck that was ahead of you, do you refuse to get out of your car or steer around the obstacle until someone from the company that owns the truck comes back to clear it for you ?

    Not only do driving skills need to be tested when getting a drivers licence, they need to add an IQ test too. And maybe a test to weed out the lazy bastards.

    You have clearly missed the whole point of this thread, in relation to keeping kids off the roads because of the danger it poses. You just cannot grasp the educational part of teaching kids the dangers, and continue to force every last effort you have to put everything (except teaching your kids for you) onto the driver.

    With kids comes responsibility, and so far you have not shown any.


  • #77
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Deleted User wrote: »
    or you know they could do something crazy like supervise their child properly.
    Oh dear, you mean actually supervise 3 year old children and not let them play hide and seek around/under reversing cars? You mean like, parental responsibility? Down with that sort of thing!


  • #78
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Ah ffs. You've obviously no idea what babysitting means.

    If you're driving down a national road, something falls out the back of a truck that was ahead of you, do you refuse to get out of your car or steer around the obstacle until someone from the company that owns the truck comes back to clear it for you ?

    Not only do driving skills need to be tested when getting a drivers licence, they need to add an IQ test too. And maybe a test to weed out the lazy bastards.
    Children's toys are not a motorists responsibility. If I dropped my phone on the road and someone drove across it, it'd be my problem not the drivers. It's not unreasonable to expect to drive from A to B without having to leave your vehicle to take someone's toys off the road while their parents are inside defending their angels on a message board


  • #79
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Bongalongherb wrote: »
    You just cannot grasp the educational part of teaching kids the dangers, and continue to force every last effort you have to put everything (except teaching your kids for you) onto the driver.

    With kids comes responsibility, and so far you have not shown any.

    How you can come to the conclusion that I've not shown any responsibility I've no idea, probably just one you jumped to. Did I ever imply I have kids that play on the street unsupervised ?

    Kids are well aware of the danger, but then kids are kids, they'll do what kids have always done, and will always continue to do.

    Anyone with the responsibility of driving a car should be aware of this and not adopt the bull**** attitude that they don't need to adjust their own behaviour because they're in car on a road in an estate.

    It's an idiotic attitude and mentality to have.
    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Children's toys are not a motorists responsibility.

    So you wouldn't get out of your car either to remove the obstacle that fell from the truck ? I mean after all, it's not your responsibility.


  • #80
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    What's idiotic is treating roads - anywhere - as playgrounds, or allowing your children to do so.


  • #81
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭SeanW


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    So you wouldn't get out of your car either to remove the obstacle that fell from the truck ? I mean after all, it's not your responsibility.
    I've only twice had to deal with dangerous obstacles on the road. Once was a very large tree branch on a side road, I stopped and threw it away, the other was a very large piece of metal construction/earth moving equipment on a busy regional road. That time I reported it to the guards as it would not have been safe for me to try to deal with it myself.

    Toys etc, if found on a public road, should ideally be chucked into the nearest skip.


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  • #82
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,602 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I think a lot of people feel that the road to their house is an extended private driveway and anyone who uses it without their permission is violating their rights. You have all forgotten what it's like to be a child.
    I grew up in the countryside and I roamed free from a young age. My friends grew up in a town and the areas all around their housing estate were their space to explore and play in.

    Obviously, newborn infants should not be out without their parents or guardians
    Obviously pre-school children should be supervised, especially if they are playing near cars
    Obviously, people driving in housing estates should be aware that there may be children around and take extra care

    If you live on a busy main road, then only an idiot would allow children to play outside on the street, but for generations children who live in cities have played on the streets outside their homes in quiet residential areas.

    Our cities and towns are shared spaces. Cars have a special privilege but they don't own the place.

    If there are teenagers or older children acting in an anti-social manner, then this is a seperate issue to children just being kids and playing with each other.


  • #83
    Pawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 440 ✭✭Pawn


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Cars have a special privilege but they don't own the place.
    How about airports and train tracks?


    The main point raised here is about lack of supervision, not users forgetting "how it is to be a child".


  • #84
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    SeanW wrote: »
    I've only twice had to deal with dangerous obstacles on the road. Once was a very large tree branch on a side road, I stopped and threw it away,

    The question wasn't directed to you, it was to the other fella who doesn't live in the real world, or at least in a world that has children in it.


  • #85
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    I grew up in the countryside, and my mother would have killed us stone dead if she caught us out on the road. There were two gates at the front of the house that were closed when we were out playing, and we knew not to pass them.

    On Sundays my dad would bring us for a cycle, and when we were old enough to cycle on our own, we knew how to do it safely, and we were old enough to have enough sense not to get ourselves knocked down.

    It's baffling how parents think its grand to let small kids roam around unsupervised, with the onus on strangers to look out for their children and toys.


  • #86
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Pawn wrote: »
    The main point raised here is about lack of supervision,

    It's not, it's about kids playing on roads within an estate, which some think shouldn't happen.


  • #87
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    I grew up in the countryside, and my mother would have killed us stone dead if she caught us out on the road. There were two gates at the front of the house that were closed when we were out playing, and we knew not to pass them.
    ..............
    with the onus on strangers to look out for their children and toys.

    You're not even comparing like with like. A road in a rural part of the county is nothing like a street within a housing estate, not even in the slightest, apart from tarmac and concrete.

    But your final comment is very telling about your attitude. So you're saying that when you're driving there's no onus on you to look out for kids or objects on the road ? Get out of my way, I'm a motorist as Monty Burns once said.


  • #88
    Jimoslimos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭Jimoslimos


    I used to be one of these kids who played outside on the estate road, football, kerbs, kick the can, tennis etc. We were at the end of a cul de sac so through traffic wasn't an issue, just watch out for the occasional car arriving or pulling out of a driveway*

    Kids these days are no different to myself growing up, but there has been an explosion in car ownership in the last 20 years. Road space that was unoccupied is now taken up with parking and this leads to a dramatic reduction in visibility for motorist and pedestrian (especially small ones!) alike. It seems highly hypocritical for motorists to demand everyone else change their habits in a response to a situation they themselves are largely responsible for.

    *A separate bugbear, people with perfectly fine off-street parking using the roadway instead to save a few seconds in the morning.


  • #89
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,513 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    I grew up in the countryside, and my mother would have killed us stone dead if she caught us out on the road. There were two gates at the front of the house that were closed when we were out playing, and we knew not to pass them.

    I thinks it a rural v urban thing.
    For me growing up in D1 the roads (not the main roads, but side roads and roads in estates) were places for 18-a-side games of football, games of bulldog, murderball, cricket with a hurley, tennis during Wimbledon season etc, for every minute of daylight and beyond.
    It was (and I suspect still is) regarded as perfectly normal.
    Long may it continue.


  • #90
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    You're not even comparing like with like. A road in a rural part of the county is nothing like a street within a housing estate, not even in the slightest, apart from tarmac and concrete.

    But your final comment is very telling about your attitude. So you're saying that when you're driving there's no onus on you to look out for kids or objects on the road ? Get out of my way, I'm a motorist as Monty Burns once said.

    If you weren't so busy trying to deflect responsibility from parents you'd see I've already stated numerous times that drivers are responsible for driving safely and paying attention so as they don't run over children.
    It's the parents responsibility to ensure their child isn't in danger of running out in front of a moving vehicle, or obstructing a public road.
    Give and take.

    I live in an estate now, and the kids are really well behaved, they'll cycle up and down the path/road safely and they generally play together on the greens.
    My best friend lives in an estate where toys are thrown in the middle of the road and kids would race out from front gardens/behind cars.


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  • #91
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    The question wasn't directed to you, it was to the other fella who doesn't live in the real world, or at least in a world that has children in it.

    That's more than likely aimed at me. If it is, then no problem, but all I am trying to get through to folk is the fact that non-supervision of very young children allowed roam free all over the road and playing behind vehicles is dangerous and can be a major problem indeed when something goes wrong. The parents will be devastated, and also the driver.

    I don't ever blame the little fellers because they don't know any different, this is because 'the parents do not teach them' is why I say what I say here on this thread. Preventative measures are easily put in place regarding educating these young children, but a lot of parents are just too lazy to teach them, while the parent is too busy watching home and away or some other soap.

    Intelligence is free, it costs nothing to teach yourself and kids. It's the best formula to make sure no accidents like this ever happen a persons child.


  • #92
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Nobody said it wasn't parents responsibility. The issue is with some motorists having an attitude that the roads (and very often footpaths) are for themselves and themselves only, they shouldn't have to be looking out for, or adjusting their driving on account of anything other than other cars on the roads.


  • #93
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Nobody said it wasn't parents responsibility. The issue is with some motorists having an attitude that the roads (and very often footpaths) are for themselves and themselves only, they shouldn't have to be looking out for, or adjusting their driving on account of anything other than other cars on the roads.

    I don't think anyone is saying that. As adults we all have duty of care towards more vulnerable people. But it's not solely the motorists responsibility. It's mostly the parents because god forbid there's an accident and its something that supervision or teaching the child not to run out in front of traffic could have prevented.

    Motorists are responsible for driving safely. Parents are responsible for children's safety.


  • #94
    Pawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 440 ✭✭Pawn


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    kids playing on roads
    This SHOULD NOT happen. End of story.

    Think of cars driving on footpaths, how do you like it? I would support fines for dumb parents watching Fair City while their kids cause danger to themselves and others.


  • #95
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Pawn wrote: »
    This SHOULD NOT happen. End of story.

    Think of cars driving on footpaths, how do you like it? I would support fines for dumb parents watching Fair City while their kids cause danger to themselves and others.

    Go to page 1, read everything again. And repeat. See if anything filters through.


  • #96
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    I hope we're all keeping an eye on the kids while delivering superparenting lectures here.

    /motivational clap


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  • #97
    Pawn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 440 ✭✭Pawn


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Go to page 1, read everything again. And repeat. See if anything filters through.

    Perfect answer. Keep up the good work.


  • #98
    Bongalongherb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Bongalongherb


    anncoates wrote: »
    I hope we're all keeping an eye on the kids while delivering superparenting lectures here.

    /motivational clap

    But it's not super-parenting lectures, it's just basic advice, nothing more.


  • #99
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    SeanW wrote: »
    Noone has an issue slowing down in residential areas, within reason.

    .

    See it's this bullshít attitude is the problem.
    Very rarely, if ever, will you find kids playing on a main road. A housing estate is different, you should not view the roads of a housing estate as being the same as a main road, they are not the same thing - deal with it. As has been pointed out already they are not race tracks with the inconvenience of houses attached.
    Unless it is your first day on the planet and you are not aware that children tend to be on the roads in housing estates then you absolutely should be expecting them to run out in front of you, and be driving slowly enough to deal with it. Slow the fúck down - whatever you are doing is not that important. Actually I usually find the drivers in the biggest hurry are the ones with absolutely fúck all to be rushing for.
    There are about 50 young kids where I live who tend to be out and about on this one road that leads to a playing green. I use another entrance to the estate, it takes me 30 seconds longer - I can live with that.


  • #100
    paulbok
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,989 ✭✭✭paulbok


    It's still a road though, even though it's in an estate. It's everyones responsibility to be safe of any road, not just the motorists


  • #101
    holystungun9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭holystungun9


    Teyla Emmagan wrote: »
    No coffee yet?

    Yes, but it spilt on my lap.


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