'Sharia police' patrol streets of German city

marienbad · 14-09-2014 4:45pm

lightspeed wrote: »

ISIS is a terrorist organisation that we all know is responsible for evil acts of murder.

If these people support these so called muslim fighters, then they should be treated the same as enemy soldiers on the battlefield.

For the ones that joined ISIS, when or if they return from the front line to European countries that have took action against ISIS, will they just blend back into society and live happily ever after or will they retaliate, and blow up a train in pursuit of their JIHAD?

The problem is that some think that these people can be viewed as normal citizens who will be bound by the laws in place.

But clearly they are not. They view the west as a battlefield.

If they want to be Muslim fighters then we should recognise them as such and execute them. If they are soldiers in a war, how could their execution be murder? it would be an act of war against an enemy combatant on the battlefield.

How should Britain have dealt with people publicly and actively supporting the Nazi party during war time Britain in world war 2?

Do you really believe this schoolboy s*&te ?

suicide_circus · 14-09-2014 4:46pm

ireland.man wrote: »

Has AH always been like a liveleak comment thread filled with far-right and racist comments? Killing muslims, drowning them, constant threads every day about Sharia, immigrants, asylum seekers, ISIS, muslims in Ireland, etc etc. Even Americanisms like 'libtard' and 'liberals' to mean progressives or centrists are becoming the norm.

I've met plenty of Irish people who were racist, sadly, but this anti-Islam thing, and using American political slang is so strange and new to me.

The shame, the crippling shame!!

endacl · 14-09-2014 4:47pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

The shame, the crippling shame!!

Ha! Libtard!

14-09-2014 4:48pm

Hitchens wrote: »

stop diggin' love

I'm not digging, I don't even have a spade. I'm not anti-religion. I've worked for the CC in the past and have nothing but respect for many of the people I met in that work.

Not every atheist is hell bent on being seen to despise religious organisations.

SpaceTime · 14-09-2014 4:48pm

ireland.man wrote: »

Has AH always been like a liveleak comment thread filled with far-right and racist comments? Killing muslims, drowning them, constant threads every day about Sharia, immigrants, asylum seekers, ISIS, muslims in Ireland, etc etc. Even Americanisms like 'libtard' and 'liberals' to mean progressives or centrists are becoming the norm.

I've met plenty of Irish people who were racist, sadly, but this anti-Islam thing, and using American political slang is so strange and new to me.

My concern is that if you don't nip something like that in the bud and show that the state has actual authority and exclusive authority when it comes to policing, then you end up with a situation where you can end up with a rise of the right-wing and ultra-nationalism as well as the problems that this kind of vigilantism can cause.

The state has to step in and actually deal with something like that quite swiftly and effectively to prevent that vacuum being created as well as dealing with the problem.

If you start seeing uniformed religious types claiming to be police wandering around the place and intimidating people, it's not only wrong but it also just creates a flash point if it's allowed to continue.

It's absolutely illegal here and could be cracked down on quite heavily and I would assume the same kind of legislation probably exists in Germany too due to the threat of the extreme right.

I think the same applies to this as would apply to any extreme political group roaming the streets like that.

Also, if you start having self-polciing communities, you end up with Northern Ireland's council estates in the 1980s and all the horrors that brought.

It's one law and one police force for everyone. No discussion about it.

It shouldn't matter if these are islamic fundamentalists or neo nazis, the same undermining of the state and the legitimate rule of law type behaviour applies and needs to be immediately stopped.

suicide_circus · 14-09-2014 4:48pm

marienbad wrote: »

Do you really believe this schoolboy s*&te ?

Probably not

endacl · 14-09-2014 4:48pm

Hitchens wrote: »

let's see them try this in the US or Russia

In soviet Russia, sharia patrol you.

Not sure about the US...

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 4:58pm

I remember growing up in Tallaght and seeing patrols of men going around trying to stop anti-social behaviour. They were heroic enough to beat the crap out of anaemic teens smoking hash in fields and because the locals were so desperate for some stability that the State wasn't providing, and the fact that people felt so detached from the legal process and isolated, they supported these vigilante thugs. The same exists with republican groups in disenfranchised areas of the North.

So there's nothing new about vigilantism and in this example in Germany it just speaks to how immigrants are feeling left out of the system. You don't have to see it as a grand ISIS or radical Islam scheme to take over Europe. It's not about the religion of the communities or their culture.

SpaceTime · 14-09-2014 5:01pm

ireland.man wrote: »

I remember growing up in Tallaght and seeing patrols of men going around trying to stop anti-social behaviour. They were heroic enough to beat the crap out of anaemic teens smoking hash in fields and because the locals were so desperate for some stability that the State wasn't providing, and the fact that people felt so detached from the legal process and isolated, they supported these vigilante thugs. The same exists with republican groups in disenfranchised areas of the North.

So there's nothing new about vigilantism and in this example in Germany it just speaks to how immigrants are feeling left out of the system. You don't have to see it as a grand ISIS or radical Islam scheme to take over Europe. It's not about the religion of the communities or their culture.

It's actually a combination of both which is why it's such a dangerous mix. You've disenfranchised communities and radical extremism.
That's quite a nasty cocktail in any context.

Ensuring that you've got an ethnic balance in *real* policing is essential i.e. RUC vs PSNI recruitment policies made a huge difference in Northern Ireland.

I'm finally starting to see one or two non-West of Ireland faces in the Gardai too which is a good thing.

Sacksian · 14-09-2014 5:13pm

To be fair, apart from the amazing Schwebebahn, there's not much else to do in Wuppertal.

lightspeed · 14-09-2014 5:13pm

Links234 wrote: »

And a completely different issue to some muppets playing militia, who quite rightly got arrested for what they did.

Wow. Just... wow. This is incredible, I'd like to bold certain parts for emphasis, but I can't.

So you think the UK should start executing their own citizens? I don't know what else to say apart from I sincerely hope you're joking.

Firstly, if they are preaching the same as ISIS, then i dont see the difference unless they are publically condeming the violent actions of ISIS. Also if you read he article, you have noted the part near the bottom you would have noticed the following

"German authorities fear that Salafists have been encouraging young men to travel to Syria or Iraq to join the militant "Islamic State" or similar groups".

If the British citizens have gone to train and fight with people who are adamant enemies of Britain and other european countries, then yes they should be executed for treason.

The alternative is we dont treat them like enemy soldiers, welcome them back and instead respect their wishes to promote and recruit to fight the west and commit some act of terrorism, all because the blind do-gooders have not got the spine to deal with situation efficiently and do what is necessary.

I recall reading how the guy who butchered the soldier Lee Rigby had been known be handing out leaflets and publicly promoting Jihad against the West. If they want to be soldiers in a Jihad than why cant we kill them like any other enemy combatant on the battlefield? They want to die for allah, the west should accommodate them.

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 5:20pm

lightspeed wrote: »

Firstly, if they are preaching the same as ISIS, then i dont see the difference unless they are publically condeming the violent actions of ISIS. Also if you read he article, you have noted the part near the bottom you would have noticed the following

"German authorities fear that Salafists have been encouraging young men to travel to Syria or Iraq to join the militant "Islamic State" or similar groups".

If the British citizens have gone to train and fight with people who are adamant enemies of Britain and other european countries, then yes they should be executed for treason.

The alternative is we dont treat them like enemy soldiers, welcome them back and instead respect their wishes to promote and recruit to fight the west and commit some act of terrorism, all because the blind do-gooders have not got the spine to deal with situation efficiently and do what is necessary.

I recall reading how the guy who butchered the soldier Lee Rigby had been known be handing out leaflets and publicly promoting Jihad against the West. If they want to be soldiers in a Jihad than why cant we kill them like any other enemy combatant on the battlefield? They want to die for allah, the west should accommodate them.

This is what I mean when I say AH is filled with extremist opinions that you just don't find in real life in Ireland.

endacl · 14-09-2014 5:21pm

ireland.man wrote: »

This is what I mean when I say AH is filled with extremist opinions that you just don't find openly expressed in real life in Ireland.

You're probably right, after that slight adjustment.

lightspeed · 14-09-2014 5:28pm

ireland.man wrote: »

I remember growing up in Tallaght and seeing patrols of men going around trying to stop anti-social behaviour. They were heroic enough to beat the crap out of anaemic teens smoking hash in fields and because the locals were so desperate for some stability that the State wasn't providing, and the fact that people felt so detached from the legal process and isolated, they supported these vigilante thugs. The same exists with republican groups in disenfranchised areas of the North.

So there's nothing new about vigilantism and in this example in Germany it just speaks to how immigrants are feeling left out of the system. You don't have to see it as a grand ISIS or radical Islam scheme to take over Europe. It's not about the religion of the communities or their culture.

Utter horse ****. You seem to have come to the conclusion that these poor young muslim men are a victim of islamaphobia and have had their rights persecuted, thus leaving them having to try and force Sharia law on the ignorant islamaphobic german public

Tragic, we must arrange an Ice bucket challenge to raise much needed compensation and funds for this noble cause.

If they dont support ISIS why do the German authorities think otherwise? I suppose it is also just a coincidence that they promoting Sharia law just like ISIS at a time when ISIS have just committed brutal decapitations. Its either cause they support ISIS or they just chose a poor time to execute their Sharia policing strategy.

I have no issues with Muslims. I do have issues with people promoting violence and supporting violence, murder and terrorism of civilians. Id feel the same about the IRA or any other terrorist sympathisers.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 14-09-2014 5:36pm

Candie wrote: »

I was in London once, and an evangelical Christian had a mike set up with an amplifier and told everyone passing by that they were going to hell for their debauchery and paganism. Same thing, extremist big mouths will be extremist bigmouths, and since the German police are on the case I wouldn't worry too much about it.

There's a big difference between a man with a microphone preaching about god and a group of self appointed "Sharia Police" going around ordering and threatening people to behave in a certain way, make no mistake about it.

lightspeed · 14-09-2014 5:54pm

ireland.man wrote: »

This is what I mean when I say AH is filled with extremist opinions that you just don't find in real life in Ireland.

In my experience i think your view would be judged by the majority to be the extremist view.

So people who leave Britain to join a group responsible for mass killing of people who dont share the same religious beliefs and decapitating civilians should just be allowed back to Europe to continue their Jihad and you consider my views to be extreme?

Even if they were arrested, what then? Tell me about your solution.

We just put them in prison for a while (even if we could charge them with anything and secure a conviction), give them a cup of tea and hope they all better and then spend large amounts of tax revenue on on surveillance in case they commit any violent acts of terrorism? Is his a more viable solution to you?

If such people want to be treated like soldiers in a holy war, consider the West to be a battlefield and civilians as enemy targets, than again i ask why we cant respect them as enemy combatants and take them out?

If the British had of took out Martin Guinness back when he was promoting violence against the British public, I would have understood the logic although that situation i feel was different as a political solution was an option for peace as we have seen.

ISIS cant be negotiated with unless we can learn to respect and abide by Sharia law and allow the slaughter of civilians who don't.

MRnotlob606 · 14-09-2014 5:55pm

Ahh now

DazMarz · 14-09-2014 5:57pm

A ride, a bacon sandwich and a bottle of beer. Show them what they're missing and watch as all this nonsense evaporates.

That's my idea on how to combat radical Islamism. Sex, bacon and alcohol. Can't go wrong!

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 5:57pm

lightspeed wrote: »

Utter horse ****. You seem to have come to the conclusion that these poor young muslim men are a victim of islamaphobia and have had their rights persecuted, thus leaving them having to try and force Sharia law on the ignorant islamaphobic german public

Tragic, we must arrange an Ice bucket challenge to raise much needed compensation and funds for this noble cause.

If they dont support ISIS why do the German authorities think otherwise? I suppose it is also just a coincidence that they promoting Sharia law just like ISIS at a time when ISIS have just committed brutal decapitations. Its either cause they support ISIS or they just chose a poor time to execute their Sharia policing strategy.

I have no issues with Muslims. I do have issues with people promoting violence and supporting violence, murder and terrorism of civilians. Id feel the same about the IRA or any other terrorist sympathisers.

I clearly showed my disgust for vigilantes. My main idea was that poor social and economic conditions in some communities breeds vigilantism and can be dealt with by addressing those core social problems.

What I bolded in that post is what you see on liveleak or right-wing forums, mostly American or Russian. Any attempt at understanding a problem in order to address it and solve it is taken as somehow supporting it. You can't win against these types of posts because they're not trying to rationally debate but instead shout loudest and induce the most disgust and fear.

madmaxi · 14-09-2014 5:58pm

lightspeed wrote: »

If the British citizens have gone to train and fight with people who are adamant enemies of Britain and other european countries, then yes they should be executed for treason.

A little extreme don't you think.
Exile would be a better option imo, Devil's island would be ideal. Isolate them from society.

catallus · 14-09-2014 6:04pm

DazMarz wrote: »

Sex, bacon and alcohol. Can't go wrong!

Idea; let's start our own religion with that as the new trinitarian philosophy.

There's even a ready made eschatology in the inevitable hangover/wild ****es/ sore mickey the next day.

ABC101 · 14-09-2014 6:08pm

ireland.man wrote: »

My main idea was that poor social and economic conditions in some communities breeds vigilantism and can be dealt with by addressing those core social problems.

I think you are confusing two very different issues here.

This is NOT about poor social economic disadvantaged section of a community which is standing up for itself, i.e. demanding jobs, civil rights etc etc

This is about Sharia Law, and that a certain community, has a "local police force' is attempting to keep it's own members within the confines of Sharia Law.

At least that is how I understand the article. Or am I missing something?

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 6:31pm

I've met plenty of racist lads who wouldn't be afraid of being 'politically incorrect' but I've never met someone who is Islamophobic like you find on Boards lately. This idea that Muslims are breeding out the indigenous populations of Europe, are imposing Sharia Law on large swathes of the continent, are even an existential threat to our cultures, it's all an American import (via Britain).

It's a typically American, half-informed, paranoid, fear-mongering, fear-based world view and it's akin to listening to those tw*ts walking around putting on American twangs! in south Dublin to sound cool.

Go onto Liveleak or any American right-wing forum and you'll not only find the same myths and fears as you see on Boards these days BUT you see the same slang and language being used. People are not just copying the same ideas as American nutjobs but are imitating their language. They conflate Hamas with ISIS, and will talk about how Muslims are 'outbreeding' Europeans until there's no indigenous culture left, and they'll accuse anyone who doesn't stand with them in their stupid, ignorant opinions as 'Hamas/ ISIS/ Iran/ supporters' or 'libtards' or 'bleeding heart liberals'.

DazMarz · 14-09-2014 6:45pm

"In the name of the ride, the booze and the bacon sambo"...

Yeah!!! Now there's a religion I could really dig!!!

UCDVet · 14-09-2014 6:46pm

ireland.man wrote: »

I've met plenty of racist lads who wouldn't be afraid of being 'politically incorrect' but I've never met someone who is Islamophobic like you find on Boards lately. This idea that Muslims are breeding out the indigenous populations of Europe, are imposing Sharia Law on large swathes of the continent, are even an existential threat to our cultures, it's all an American import (via Britain).

It's a typically American, half-informed, paranoid, fear-mongering, fear-based world view and it's akin to listening to those tw*ts walking around putting on American twangs! in south Dublin to sound cool.

Go onto Liveleak or any American right-wing forum and you'll not only find the same myths and fears as you see on Boards these days BUT you see the same slang and language being used. People are not just copying the same ideas as American nutjobs but are imitating their language. They conflate Hamas with ISIS, and will talk about how Muslims are 'outbreeding' Europeans until there's no indigenous culture left, and they'll accuse anyone who doesn't stand with them in their stupid, ignorant opinions as 'Hamas/ ISIS/ Iran/ supporters' or 'libtards' or 'bleeding heart liberals'.

Islam
The Republic of Ireland may be intimately associated with the Roman Catholic Church, but the fastest-growing faith on the emerald isle is Islam -- at such a rapid rate that Muslims are projected to replace Protestantism as the second-most popular religion by the year 2043.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/islam-to-become-irelands-second-religion-by-2043-29874239.html
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/lifting-the-veil-on-irish-islam-29941427.html

I'm not for or against Islam, but it seems we don't need misinformation. They are 'out breeding' (or out immigrating, or out converting) every other religion in Ireland. It's also true in many other parts of the EU. Religion is very closely related to culture - it is certainly possible that, if trends continue (for a long enough time), there won't be an indigenous culture left. Whether or not that is good or bad is subjective, but if you value current EU culture, it'd be a bad thing.

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 7:04pm

UCDVet wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/islam-to-become-irelands-second-religion-by-2043-29874239.html
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/lifting-the-veil-on-irish-islam-29941427.html

I'm not for or against Islam, but it seems we don't need misinformation. They are 'out breeding' (or out immigrating, or out converting) every other religion in Ireland. It's also true in many other parts of the EU. Religion is very closely related to culture - it is certainly possible that, if trends continue (for a long enough time), there won't be an indigenous culture left. Whether or not that is good or bad is subjective, but if you value current EU culture, it'd be a bad thing.

This is just bad science/ bad statistics and fear mongering. Those types of stats are used to create attention grabbing headlines but are rubbished by any legitimate sources. Extrapolating thirty years into the future is stupid and aimed for people who enjoy being thrilled by extraordinary news but don't care too much to do their own little bit of research.

It's click-bait and newspapers that need readers will use stories like this all the time. It's why every week there's a new major advance in medicine and some new asteroid or exciting environmental problem to be dealt with in the papers but you won't find the original sources backing up the distorted headlines.

RobYourBuilder · 14-09-2014 7:22pm

ireland.man wrote: »

This is just bad science/ bad statistics and fear mongering. Those types of stats are used to create attention grabbing headlines but are rubbished by any legitimate sources. Extrapolating thirty years into the future is stupid and aimed for people who enjoy being thrilled by extraordinary news but don't care too much to do their own little bit of research.

It's click-bait and newspapers that need readers will use stories like this all the time. It's why every week there's a new major advance in medicine and some new asteroid or exciting environmental problem to be dealt with in the papers but you won't find the original sources backing up the distorted headlines.

The figures used come from Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-regional-europe/

catallus · 14-09-2014 7:23pm

Pew-pew

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 7:24pm

catallus wrote: »

Pew-pew

Are you pew pewing my ideas???

UCDVet · 14-09-2014 7:25pm

ireland.man wrote: »

This is just bad science/ bad statistics and fear mongering. Those types of stats are used to create attention grabbing headlines but are rubbished by any legitimate sources. Extrapolating thirty years into the future is stupid and aimed for people who enjoy being thrilled by extraordinary news but don't care too much to do their own little bit of research.

It's click-bait and newspapers that need readers will use stories like this all the time. It's why every week there's a new major advance in medicine and some new asteroid or exciting environmental problem to be dealt with in the papers but you won't find the original sources backing up the distorted headlines.

I'm not sure it's fair to say it's bad science / bad statistics - unless you can point out the fault. If you think extrapolating 30 years into the future is 'unfair', that might be a reasonable stance to take - but there isn't anything inherently wrong with it.

Population projects, historically speaking, have been pretty accurate. Here's a study that compiled a bunch of old projections and measured how far off they were from the real numbers:
https://www.ssb.no/a/histstat/doc/doc_199704.pdf

When projecting 10 years into the future, they had around a +/- 1% margin of error.

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 7:28pm

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

The figures used come from Pew Research.

http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/future-of-the-global-muslim-population-regional-europe/

The stats are correct but the application is stupid.

I've bulked up and put on about two stone in the past two year. Therefore I'll be about 45 stone by the time the paper says Muslims will be the second biggest religion in the country so don't worry, I'll defend our way of life with my enormous strength then. That's how statistics work, right?

catallus · 14-09-2014 7:30pm

ireland.man wrote: »

Are you pew pewing my ideas???

I'm just saying one should be careful where one takes their news from; we all know not to believe everything we read.

Pew, pew-pew!

RobYourBuilder · 14-09-2014 7:32pm

ireland.man wrote: »

The stats are correct

A few minutes previous;

This is just bad science/ bad statistics and fear mongering.

So which is it? Make up your mind.

catallus · 14-09-2014 7:34pm

ireland.man wrote: »

That's how statistics work, right?

The numbers are authoritative and correct, even when they are in error and contradict each other.

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 7:40pm

This Muslim demographic thing, or Eurabia as more honest Islamophobes describe it, is again an American thing. Even anti-Muslim immigrant groups in europe generally don't talk about Muslim out-breeding indigenous people's. Americans do because it's easier to get away with having ignorant and ill informed views of Europe from there.

You can't use Pew stats to say Muslims are a threat because 30 years of a consistent growth in the birth rates of immigrant groups, not a united group but different ethnic groups all who are Muslims, is frankly idiotic. The BBC ran a series about this. They were teaching about the use of bad stats and they used American fears of Islam and the birth rate myth as an example of misuse:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189480.stm

Or this:

"According to the higher range of estimates by the U.S. National Intelligence Council (NIC), there are already as many as 18 million Muslims in Western Europe, or 4.5 percent of the population. The percentage is even lower for the 27-country European Union as a whole. The future will certainly see an increase, but it's hard to imagine that Europe will even reach the 10 percent mark (except in some countries or cities). For one thing, as the same NIC study indicates and demographers agree, fertility rates among Muslims are sharply declining as children of immigrants gradually conform to prevailing social and economic norms. Nor is immigration still a major source of newly minted European Muslims. Only about 500,000 people a year come legally to Europe from Muslim-majority countries, with an even smaller number coming illegally -- meaning that the annual influx is a fraction of a percent of the European population."

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies

Or this:

"For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch."

http://www.newsweek.com/dispelling-myth-eurabia-81943

Or this:

"Even taking into account Christian and agnostic Europe's lousy breeding record, Muslims will account for no more than a tenth of west Europe's population by 2025. Besides, Europe's Muslims are not homogenous. Britain's mainly South Asian Muslims have far less in common with France's North African migrants or Germany's Turks than they do with other Britons."

http://www.economist.com/node/7086222?story_id=7086222

UCDVet · 14-09-2014 8:48pm

ireland.man wrote: »

This Muslim demographic thing, or Eurabia as more honest Islamophobes describe it, is again an American thing. Even anti-Muslim immigrant groups in europe generally don't talk about Muslim out-breeding indigenous people's. Americans do because it's easier to get away with having ignorant and ill informed views of Europe from there.

You can't use Pew stats to say Muslims are a threat because 30 years of a consistent growth in the birth rates of immigrant groups, not a united group but different ethnic groups all who are Muslims, is frankly idiotic. The BBC ran a series about this. They were teaching about the use of bad stats and they used American fears of Islam and the birth rate myth as an example of misuse:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/more_or_less/8189480.stm

Or this:

"According to the higher range of estimates by the U.S. National Intelligence Council (NIC), there are already as many as 18 million Muslims in Western Europe, or 4.5 percent of the population. The percentage is even lower for the 27-country European Union as a whole. The future will certainly see an increase, but it's hard to imagine that Europe will even reach the 10 percent mark (except in some countries or cities). For one thing, as the same NIC study indicates and demographers agree, fertility rates among Muslims are sharply declining as children of immigrants gradually conform to prevailing social and economic norms. Nor is immigration still a major source of newly minted European Muslims. Only about 500,000 people a year come legally to Europe from Muslim-majority countries, with an even smaller number coming illegally -- meaning that the annual influx is a fraction of a percent of the European population."

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2010/01/04/eurabian_follies

Or this:

"For the number of Muslims to outnumber non-Muslims by midcentury, it would require either breeding on a scale rarely seen in history or for immigration to continue at a pace that's now politically unacceptable. More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration. The birthrate for Muslim immigrants is also likely to continue to decline, as it has tended to do, with greater affluence and better health care. There is no Europewide data available, but one study says fertility rates among Turkish-born women in the Netherlands fell from 3.2 in 1990 to 1.9 in 2005, barely above the figure for native-born Dutch."

http://www.newsweek.com/dispelling-myth-eurabia-81943

Or this:

"Even taking into account Christian and agnostic Europe's lousy breeding record, Muslims will account for no more than a tenth of west Europe's population by 2025. Besides, Europe's Muslims are not homogenous. Britain's mainly South Asian Muslims have far less in common with France's North African migrants or Germany's Turks than they do with other Britons."

http://www.economist.com/node/7086222?story_id=7086222

I really do appreciate you taking the time to provide links. Honestly.

One thing I found interesting though was this:

More likely, new controls will slow Muslim immigration

I think that's kind of an odd thing to say though, isn't it. 'Relax, Muslims aren't going overwhelm the local population in the future because - hey - someone will probably change the laws. So calm down...'. The oddness being that, if everyone did relax and calm down, the laws wouldn't change.

Still, this all reminds me very much of conversations I heard in the 90s, in the United States - only replace Muslim with Hispanic. People were concerned about the immigration and birth rates and wanted tighter controls put in place. Others were quick to label them racists and accuse them of twisting data/extrapolating to justify their racism.

But as it turns out, 20 years later, there are lots of places where Hispanics are the majority demographic in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._communities_with_Hispanic_majority_populations_in_the_2010_census

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 9:25pm

UCDVet wrote: »

I really do appreciate you taking the time to provide links. Honestly.

One thing I found interesting though was this:

I think that's kind of an odd thing to say though, isn't it. 'Relax, Muslims aren't going overwhelm the local population in the future because - hey - someone will probably change the laws. So calm down...'. The oddness being that, if everyone did relax and calm down, the laws wouldn't change.

Still, this all reminds me very much of conversations I heard in the 90s, in the United States - only replace Muslim with Hispanic. People were concerned about the immigration and birth rates and wanted tighter controls put in place. Others were quick to label them racists and accuse them of twisting data/extrapolating to justify their racism.

But as it turns out, 20 years later, there are lots of places where Hispanics are the majority demographic in the US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._communities_with_Hispanic_majority_populations_in_the_2010_census

That single detail about new legislation slowing immigration wasn't the main or even a primary reason for why Muslim populations will not overwhelm indigenous populations, but one factor amongst many. And the problem with the Mexican example is it's a whole different debate- English isn't a secondary language, American culture hasn't collapsed, etc etc.

By far the most interesting (and ironic) part of this thread is the link to the Pew stats, the only link, used by most posters when 'proving' Muslims are a demographic threat to Europe. If you actually read that first page on their link you'll see it concludes that:

"although Europe’s Muslim population is growing, Europe’s share of the global Muslim population will remain quite small. Less than 3% of the world’s Muslims are expected to be living in Europe in 2030, about the same portion as in 2010 (2.7%)."

So the link, the only source of data used by people on this thread to point to Muslim's threat to Europe's populations is one that proves them wrong, literally states why their opinions are incorrect!

Btw, I appreciate your civility UCDvet!

twinytwo · 14-09-2014 9:34pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

You can relax a bit, in Ireland at least.

It's actually extremely unconstitutional and also absolutely illegal in Ireland. There's nothing remotely vague or fluffy about that aspect of law here.

You simply cannot setup a private police force, army or any kind of kangaroo court. We had a bit of a problem with this after the foundation of the state, so we've a lot of very clear legislation about it.

It's also covered by the Offences Against the State Act 1939.

EXTREMELY clear.

Basically, if you did that in Ireland and were prosecuted you could be facing at least some time (potentially 2 years) behind bars.
The reference to 'penal servitude' is obsolete (but only since 1997!)

However, the court can opt to imprison someone for up to the length of the time of the original 'penal servitude' clause too. So, in theory you could go away for 10 years for doing that.
Section 11(1) of the Criminal Law Act, 1997

So, in general.. don't go trying to set up your own private police force or you could be spending a lot of time in jail and courts tend to take a very, very dim view of anyone trying to usurp their authority under the constitution.

I don't really care what they call themselves or who they are or why they're doing it. It's vigilantism and no different from some bunch of crackpots of any other political persuasion deciding to patrol the streets and calling themselves a police force. You simply cannot allow it as it undermines the rule of law, the constitution and democratic accountability.

Also, I'm fairly certain that a similar situation applies in Germany which would likely stem from a very serious concern about any kind of rise of the far right / neo nazism etc. They don't tend to mess around with any group attempting to behave like the thugs they had in the 1930s.

Massive difference is that in germany, they will enforce the law.

Here you would get all the bleeding hearts crying about their rights etc etc and the government would just pussy foot around it

Wurzelbert · 14-09-2014 9:51pm

Paz-CCFC wrote: »

The leader of this group is German. Muslim doesn't automatically mean immigrant.

yeah, though pretty much all of them are the descendants of immigrants and islam was brought to germany by immigrants…and then there are a few german converts of course…

Bafucin · 14-09-2014 9:54pm

twinytwo wrote: »

Massive difference is that in germany, they will enforce the law.

Here you would get all the bleeding hearts crying about their rights etc etc and the government would just pussy foot around it

Germans do not **** around especially regarding immigration.

Wurzelbert · 14-09-2014 10:08pm

UCDVet wrote: »

[...]it is certainly possible that, if trends continue (for a long enough time), there won't be an indigenous culture left.[...]

i’d say if the current trends (in many european countries) continue for a long enough time that’s a certainty…one group of a population having far more kids than the rest will become a majority within a few generations…so it might be a good idea to read up on the quran and get used to the idea of shariah law…then of course trends can change over time and i hope to be dead by then anyway…

DarkJager · 14-09-2014 10:11pm

I'd prefer Islam being outlawed in the west and it's followers either deported or forced to integrate with the culture and traditions of the country they reside in. Islam as a religion has absolutely nothing positive to offer any country in the developed world.

ireland.man · 14-09-2014 10:13pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

i’d say if the current trends (in many european countries) continue for a long enough time that’s a certainty…one group of a population having far more kids than the rest will become a majority within a few generations…so it might be a good idea to read up on the quran and get used to the idea of shariah law…then of course trends can change over time and i hope to be dead by then anyway…

Judging by the quality of this thread, I think most of the contributors will be dead from all sorts of hilarious, self-caused mistakes and accidents

0byme75341jo28 · 14-09-2014 10:16pm

DarkJager wrote: »

I'd prefer Islam being outlawed in the west and it's followers either deported or forced to integrate with the culture and traditions of the country they reside in. Islam as a religion has absolutely nothing positive to offer any country in the developed world.

You've really bought into all that scaremongering crap we've been seeing recently, haven't you?

catallus · 14-09-2014 10:17pm

DarkJager wrote: »

I'd prefer Islam being outlawed in the west and it's followers either deported or forced to integrate with the culture and traditions of the country they reside in. Islam as a religion has absolutely nothing positive to offer any country in the developed world.

Casually dismissing a whole culture in such terms is the antithesis of the philosophy which led to the development of your precious "developed world".

It is worth bearing in mind that such intolerance is especially mindless, given the legacy of the past century's mass-murder.

Wurzelbert · 14-09-2014 10:18pm

ireland.man wrote: »

Judging by the quality of this thread, I think most of the contributors will be dead from all sorts of hilarious, self-caused mistakes and accidents

yeah well…so what’s your take on all this?

DarkJager · 14-09-2014 10:20pm

Lilliana Orange Puffin wrote: »

You've really bought into all that scaremongering crap we've been seeing recently, haven't you?

What scaremongering? Tell me one facet of Islam that is beneficial to any country? It is a religion of hatred and violence and has no place in a civilised country.

Paz-CCFC · 14-09-2014 10:20pm

Wurzelbert wrote: »

yeah, though pretty much all of them are the descendants of immigrants and islam was brought to germany by immigrants…and then there are a few german converts of course…

And? Catholicism was brought to Germany by immigrants and is now the most popular religion there. In Ireland, it's the vast majority religion, taking over from previous Gaelic beliefs. Wouldn't Celtic paganism be a more indigenous religion? Did the evil Christians "outbreed" the native pagans?

DarkJager wrote: »

I'd prefer Islam being outlawed in the west and it's followers either deported or forced to integrate with the culture and traditions of the country they reside in. Islam as a religion has absolutely nothing positive to offer any country in the developed world.

To where would you deport Irish Muslims?

RobYourBuilder · 14-09-2014 10:22pm

Lilliana Orange Puffin wrote: »

You've really bought into all that scaremongering crap we've been seeing recently, haven't you?

What scaremongering? Mad mullahs lobbing lads heads off in the name of Allah on Londons streets? Mass grooming gangs in the UK? The 751 no go muslim areas for emergency services in France? Muslim immigrants engaging in antisemitic abuse all over Europe and the Jewish community living in fear?

It's not scaremongering. Muslim immigration into Europe, by and large, has been an utter disaster. Time to stick a moratorium on any further immigration from Islamic countries.

0byme75341jo28 · 14-09-2014 10:22pm

DarkJager wrote: »

What scaremongering? Tell me one facet of Islam that is beneficial to any country? It is a religion of hatred and violence and has no place in a civilised country.

You're not talking about Islam, you're talking about extremism.

'Sharia police' patrol streets of German city

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