Left Behind Novels

A great set of books, I found them to be entertaining and riveting.

LaHaye makes a pretty good case for his eschatological views (end time prophecies) by weaving a story around the Biblical events in Revelation.

Dont take it as being truth though which I found myself doing as the series went on. I read a couple of other similar books that told a different story that brought me back to earth.

I have read all of them, and I think they are great prophetic fiction ... although this type of fiction gets dated quickly!

wolfsbane wrote: »

The former idea is a relatively modern novelty in Christian theology, originating in the early 1800's from a female prophetess of the Catholic Apostolic Church (a sort of Pentecostal denomination before Pentecostalism arose). Before that all the Church held that the Church was the object of Antichrist's wrath.

Do you believe that? Can you back that up?

The literal interpretation of the scriptures have been one of the products of the so-called Powerscourt conferences in the 1820's in Powerscourt Castle. Another product was the Brethren movement. So you could say these are real Irish products!

robindch wrote: »

I understand that LaHaye's fiction is about the end of the world. How can a prophesy like that get dated if it doesn't happen?

The prophecy doesn't get dated. Christ return is still the Blessed Hope Paul wrote about! The fiction gets dated though... Cool gadgets are now old, and possible interpretation of prophetic symbols against current news events are overtaken.

Titus 2:11 -14 (ESV)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

robindch wrote: »

Well, that's something else I was wondering about. Surely a prophesy isn't much use if you can't tell what most of it is referring to, and doesn't give you enough information to know when it's going to happen? Why all the symbology? Why not just a simple note that something's going to happen and leave it at that?

It's what paul is trying to describe. Possibly 21st century technology in 1st century terms.

The language and terminology is limited. Bottom line, Christ will return. Are you ready?

How would you describe a helicopter to someone who has never seen anythingh but a bird fly and has no idea of what a motor is, or a gun or a bomb?

robindch wrote: »

That's not what I was asking santing says that prophesy uses symbols that need to be reinterpreted constantly. Why not just write it out without symbols? Why not provide an unambiguous message?It's really quite easy to do -- wasn't it Leonardo da Vinci who went as far as drawing a picture of one centuries before Sikorsky? And sci-fi is full of descriptions of things that don't exist, and probably never will. Far from detracting from stories, good descriptions add to them.

I don't buy the "it can't be described" argument at all. So, why not just say it straight, unless you actually wanted people to be unsure of what's going on?

The descriptions are quite good - that's why they could be interpreted like the "Left Behind" do. And we are challenged in the Bible to read and interpret them - most prophecies have already been fulfilled, and sometimes to such an extend that our present day scholars think that it mst have been written after the facts! The Bible has many predictions around the Lord Jesus, and especially Matthew uses these in his gospel to say "Look another one fulfilled!"

When we look at prophecies, we know that many/all have both a short term (partial) fulfillment and a long term (final) fullfilment. That's where Bible interpreters disagree with in relation to Revelations ... has part of it already been "final" fulfilled or was it a "partial" fulfillment.

But there is no doubt among Christians that Christ will return, and that we are challenged to life in the expectation that He will come in our life time.

So when John writes his book of Revelation, some people may say this in symbolic, others may say, no it is real.

Take for instance a passage from Revelation 16 (ESV)

So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.
The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood.

The Left Behind series take these literal and futuristic. Others have looked at the plague and other natural disasters to find a fullment.

santing said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The former idea is a relatively modern novelty in Christian theology, originating in the early 1800's from a female prophetess of the Catholic Apostolic Church (a sort of Pentecostal denomination before Pentecostalism arose). Before that all the Church held that the Church was the object of Antichrist's wrath.

Do you believe that? Can you back that up?

See the chapter by Tregelles
The "Secret Rapture": Its Origin
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/tregelles/The_Hope/the_hope_09.htm

The full work is at:
http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/tregelles/The_Hope/the_hope.htm

Tregelles was connected with the first Plymouth Brethren, and one of their notables B.W. Newton, was his cousin. A bio:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Prideaux_Tregelles

For a brief article on the rapture and the Left Behind novels:
THE NOT SO SECRET RAPTURE
http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/Not_So_Secret.html

All true Christians believe in the coming rapture. It is just that the term has come to mean pre-tribulation rapture in most circles. Many think that non-pre-tribers don't believe in the rapture.

The literal interpretation of the scriptures have been one of the products of the so-called Powerscourt conferences in the 1820's in Powerscourt Castle. Another product was the Brethren movement. So you could say these are real Irish products!

Yes, indeed, literal interpretation of the prophetic books took over the Evangelical world since then. But the pre-trib rapture is not a matter of literal vs spiritual - many premillenialists are post-tribers. Seems to come down to how we view national Israel's relation to the Church. The system Darby and other debeloped - Dispensationalism - introduced entirely new concepts to the Church, such as God having two wives, Israel and the Church. As I said, an unheard of innovation in Christian theology before the 1800's.

santing said:

Thanks for the link to Tregelles book. I'll enjoy reading it! But about Newton (whom Tregelles followed) I have always thought that he was the baddy who caused the first chism in the Brethren Movement, and as some have said, the end of the Brethren Movement. After that it became separate Brethren denominations...

Yes, depends on which side one supports on the Bethesda Incident. As I recall, without checking my books, it was Darby who demanded all other assemblies of Brethren recognise and abide by his excommunication of Bethsesda. The 'freedom' from denominational corruption gave no defence to the popery that tempts all leaders. And the subsequent history of the Brethren confirms their error in thinking themselves the only church in any locality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
See the chapter by Tregelles The "Secret Rapture": Its Origin http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatol...he_hope_09.htm

Tregelles viewpoint is highly disputed among the Brethren ... See for instance http://www.according2prophecy.org/macphers.html "Dave MacPherson's the Rapture plot: weighed and found wanting"

The plot is basically a conspiracy theory that makes either JN Darby or W Kelly deliberate lyers and deceivers. That is out of character with these godly men!

I haven't followed the conspiracy argument closely, relying on Tregelles for the historical reference, and to a work on Irving that mentioned McDonald. If lying is involved, then we have a choice between Darby/Kelly and Tregelles. I'm content at the moment merely to point of that a pre-trib rapture was unknown in the Church until that period, which seems to be generally conceded.

The "system" Darby et. al. developed (well saw in Scripture) gave several "new" predictions (in 1840!), such as
Return of Israel to the promised land
Interest in building a temple
And it explains also how among all peoples, the people of Israel always have kept their identity (and they are the only people for which that is true!) and have been vigorously persecuted throughout the centuries.

As far as I'm aware, the Church historically held to the continued existence of Israel as a necessary part of God's promise to the Fathers. It is certainly part of the Reformed Theology I am involved with. Many of the Puritans looked for the national conversion of Israel - as do I.

Their return to the land I would not find unexpected. Nor their interest in a temple - for that is a mark of their perversity and unbelief. I must look up the older commentators to see if this was a new idea by Darby et al. Any references you have would be appreciated.

What Darby and later dispensationalist did was separate Israel from the Church in the eternal purposes of God. As if the Church is not the fulfilment of all the spiritual promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As if the New Covenant is only incidentally related to the Church. But the Church is Israel in its maturity with the believing Gentiles brought in. There is only one heavenly Bride.