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Building along wall of neighbours extension

  • 30-08-2015 9:57am
    #1
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭


    Hi,
    Looking for advice after much googling and reading of cases which are similar but still seeking a more definitive answer.
    Our semi-d neighbour's built an extension about 10years ago which involved partially removing the garden wall. Hence, the side of their new extension became the side wall of our patio area and runs flush with the internal party wall between our two houses. (We weren't the owners at the time and only bought our house a couple of years ago).

    Our builder advised us, before we began our extension, that we didn't need their permission to use that wall to do a similar extension on our side as the wall is on the boundary and is therefore co-owned. Is this the case? Thanks in advance for any responses.


Comments

  • #2
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0027/sec0043.html#sec43
    is what governs this sort of stuff now
    Have you actually built the extension as it seems so from the language so whats the issue if its all done and dusted?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #3
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Really appreciate the response. Work isn't finished but started. We did call over to the neighbours before we started works to let them know that we'd be doing an extension but never asked for "permission" to use the wall as our builder advised us that we didn't need their permission due to position of the wall. Now that we've started the work and they have realised that we intend to use the wall, they've put a stop to our works as they believe the wall is theirs. Who's right? I've tried to read the legislation but still not sure what next step is!


  • #4
    Greenmachine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,063 ✭✭✭Greenmachine


    Graffiti wrote: »
    Really appreciate the response. Work isn't finished but started. We did call over to the neighbours before we started works to let them know that we'd be doing an extension but never asked for "permission" to use the wall as our builder advised us that we didn't need their permission due to position of the wall. Now that we've started the work and they have realised that we intend to use the wall, they've put a stop to our works as they believe the wall is theirs. Who's right? I've tried to read the legislation but still not sure what next step is!

    Is it a boundary wall? Is it on your side of the property? Is it on theirs?


  • #5
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    One way or another , it'll be a delay.
    Would being nice-accomadating and understanding of your neighbours concerns see a quicker resolution than just being right and adversarial-
    Depending on when your neighbours extension was built -and where on the shared boundary line their wall is -they could be in drama too-but it could be a long expensive process to prove-

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #6
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Greenmachine wrote: »
    Is it a boundary wall? Is it on your side of the property? Is it on theirs?

    That's what I'm trying to establish. To me it's on the boundary and the only reason I'm doubting myself is because they insist it's their wall (they did build it). It runs directly along the side of our patio I.e when we sit on patio we can lean against the wall and runs flush from the internal party wall of our semi-d houses.


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  • #7
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    when u say
    they have realised that we intend to use the wall.
    how exactly are u doing this.
    Are you building on top of it:
    e.g. creating a two story extension on top of an existing.
    do u need access from their side to finish it.

    The legislation is very clear, you don't need their consent, but if they say u do you get a works order from the district court, about 2.3k in legals.

    The legislation is pretty simple, there are 5 elements:
    4 from u as building owner to them as adjoining owner
    1 from them as adjoining owner to u as building owner
    see below:
    next step:
    print off or email them the link and have a chat.
    Most folk I deal with have no idea about the legislation: they, like ur guy, go all rambo like until they understand that they legally cannot refuse consent for access and other work on boundary wall.

    This comes from this bit
    (b) is situated at or on or so close to the boundary line between adjoining and separately owned buildings or between such buildings and unbuilt-on lands that it is impossible or not reasonably practical to carry out works to the structure without access to the adjoining building or unbuilt-on land,

    So the concept of their wall is moot.

    Subject to subsection (3), in exercising any right under subsection (1) the building owner shall—

    (a) make good all damage caused to the adjoining owner as a consequence of the works, or reimburse the adjoining owner the reasonable costs and expenses of such making good, and

    (b) pay to the adjoining owner—

    (i) the reasonable costs of obtaining professional advice with regard to the likely consequences of the works, and

    (ii) reasonable compensation for any inconvenience caused by the works.

    (3) The building owner may—

    (a) claim from the adjoining owner as a contribution to, or deduct from any reimbursement of, the cost and expenses of making good such damage under subsection (2)(a), or

    (b) deduct from compensation under subsection (2)(b)(ii),

    such sum as will take into account the proportionate use or enjoyment of the party structure which the adjoining owner makes or, it is reasonable to assume, is likely to make.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #8
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Markcheese wrote: »
    One way or another , it'll be a delay.
    Would being nice-accomadating and understanding of your neighbours concerns see a quicker resolution than just being right and adversarial-
    Depending on when your neighbours extension was built -and where on the shared boundary line their wall is -they could be in drama too-but it could be a long expensive process to prove-

    Thanks for response. Absolutely, I'm fully prepared to listen to their concerns and have done this. They have mentioned that we could just build our own wall. We would obviously lose a significant amount of indoor space by doing this and what I'm trying to establish is whether they can actually force us to do this or can we just use the side of their extension? I.e. if we get a surveyor and he/she say that the wall is on the boundary does that mean we can use it as the one side of our new extension or do we need their permission as they were the ones who built it?


  • #9
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Markcheese wrote: »
    One way or another , it'll be a delay.
    Would being nice-accomadating and understanding of your neighbours concerns see a quicker resolution than just being right and adversarial-
    Depending on when your neighbours extension was built -and where on the shared boundary line their wall is -they could be in drama too-but it could be a long expensive process to prove-

    Its not like that these days
    Graffiti wrote: »
    Thanks for response. Absolutely, I'm fully prepared to listen to their concerns and have done this. They have mentioned that we could just build our own wall. We would obviously lose a significant amount of indoor space by doing this and what I'm trying to establish is whether they can actually force us to do this or can we just use the side of their extension? I.e. if we get a surveyor and he/she say that the wall is on the boundary does that mean we can use it as the one side of our new extension or do we need their permission as they were the ones who built it?

    Please describe exactly what you are doing to the wall.
    as described above
    The boundary is addressed in the legislation

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #10
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,567 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Do you have planning permission for the extension . ? If not you could have a problem just going ahead - think complaints to planning office- and even if you do have PP, you could have injunctions -court action.
    Plus you still have to live next to these guys -for quite a while

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #11
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    when u say
    they have realised that we intend to use the wall.
    how exactly are u doing this.
    Are you building on top of it:
    e.g. creating a two story extension on top of an existing.
    do u need access from their side to finish it.

    The legislation is very clear, you don't need their consent, but if they say u do you get a works order from the district court, about 2.3k in legals.

    The legislation is pretty simple, there are 5 elements:
    4 from u as building owner to them as adjoining owner
    1 from them as adjoining owner to u as building owner
    see below:
    next step:
    print off or email them the link and have a chat.
    Most folk I deal with have no idea about the legislation: they, like ur guy, go all rambo like until they understand that they legally refuse consent for access and other work on boundary wall.

    Subject to subsection (3), in exercising any right under subsection (1) the building owner shall—

    (a) make good all damage caused to the adjoining owner as a consequence of the works, or reimburse the adjoining owner the reasonable costs and expenses of such making good, and

    (b) pay to the adjoining owner—

    (i) the reasonable costs of obtaining professional advice with regard to the likely consequences of the works, and

    (ii) reasonable compensation for any inconvenience caused by the works.

    (3) The building owner may—

    (a) claim from the adjoining owner as a contribution to, or deduct from any reimbursement of, the cost and expenses of making good such damage under subsection (2)(a), or

    (b) deduct from compensation under subsection (2)(b)(ii),

    such sum as will take into account the proportionate use or enjoyment of the party structure which the adjoining owner makes or, it is reasonable to assume, is likely to make.

    Thanks Calahonda. It's a single storey kitchen extension. We had intended to raise the wall slightly (2 blocks) in order to weather proof the particular roof design we wanted and really this is what started off the upset. I have asked them if we can use the wall as the fourth side of our extension if we redesign a roof which will not involve the raising the wall between us. And they said to get back to them with the new design.
    And no, we don't need to access their property to do the works. We may need to lift and replace the capping on the wall to weather proof our roof but I have told them that we will replace any damaged capping etc.
    So it could all be fine except they did mention a few times that we should/could just build our own wall and i want to know if they can force that? If we change the roof design so as it won't involve raising the wall between us, or doing anything to it other than have it as our fourth wall, can they still choose to disallow us from having the wall as the fourth wall of our extension?


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  • #12
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Do you have planning permission for the extension . ? If not you could have a problem just going ahead - think complaints to planning office- and even if you do have PP, you could have injunctions -court action.
    Plus you still have to live next to these guys -for quite a while

    We didn't need planning permission as it's under 40m squared.
    I really don't want to fall out with them and am doing all I can to avoid it.


  • #13
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    we need more detail than this.
    what capping is on the existing wall?
    what width is the wall?
    how is it constructed: hollow block, cavity wall, solid, wha?
    what capping will be on the new wall?
    is there any overhang or gutters, etc into their side: oversell is the word used?
    how will these 2 blocks interfere with the flashing/weatherproofing of their roof: am assuming it is a room on their side?
    how will you make sure the finish on the two new blocks will be weather proof?
    are the two blocks a parapet wall or are roff timbers on top again

    2 blocks wont overload the wall.
    re
    can they still choose to disallow us from having the wall as the fourth wall of our extension?

    not if you comply with the law

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #14
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,141 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Graffiti wrote: »
    We didn't need planning permission as it's under 40m squared.
    I really don't want to fall out with them and am doing all I can to avoid it.

    plans and details should have been agreed between your arch/engineer and neighbours in the first place and boundary wall issues sorted before you started.
    Quickest thing to do is build your new wall inside the boundary wall, reinstate the boundary as is.


  • #15
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    BryanF wrote: »
    plans and details should have been agreed between your arch/engineer and neighbours in the first place and boundary wall issues sorted before you started.
    Quickest thing to do is build your new wall inside the boundary wall, reinstate the boundary as is.

    Calahonda, we won't have anything overhanging on their side. Their capping currently hangs over our side and no matter what kind of roof we'd go for, we'd need to temporarily remove it.

    Bryan, that's all well and good saying that we just build our new wall inside the boundary but how do we "reinstate the boundary as is" when their extension is sitting on it! And we'd lose so much indoor space if we can't have their extension wall as the fourth wall of our extension.


  • #16
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,141 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Graffiti wrote: »
    Calahonda, we won't have anything overhanging on their side. Their capping currently hangs over our side and no matter what kind of roof we'd go for, we'd need to temporarily remove it.

    Bryan, that's all well and good saying that we just build our new wall inside the boundary but how do we "reinstate the boundary as is" when their extension is sitting on it! And we'd lose so much indoor space if we can't have their extension wall as the fourth wall of our extension.

    Best of luck with your project


  • #17
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Thanks Bryan.


  • #18
    hdowney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭hdowney


    Honestly they should not have gotten away with building their extension ON the boundary wall when they built. They should have built INSIDE their boundary. I am wondering when they were building did they consult the then neighbours about it and what was the outcome. There should have been discussion and agreement that the second party (the neighbours NOT building the extension at the time) could use the wall as part of an extension in the future or else the building neighbours build inside their boundary. If they went ahead and built without consultation then I 'think' they illegally changed the boundaries of two houses (not sure on this though). I think there is the possibility of forcing them to undo the alterations to the boundary (which should force their hand 're letting you use the wall - which you'd be happy to do) but there is most likely a statute of limitations on it after which time the new boundary becomes legal. You'd need to look into this.


  • #19
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    hdowney wrote: »
    Honestly they should not have gotten away with building their extension ON the boundary wall when they built. They should have built INSIDE their boundary. I am wondering when they were building did they consult the then neighbours about it and what was the outcome. There should have been discussion and agreement that the second party (the neighbours NOT building the extension at the time) could use the wall as part of an extension in the future or else the building neighbours build inside their boundary. If they went ahead and built without consultation then I 'think' they illegally changed the boundaries of two houses (not sure on this though). I think there is the possibility of forcing them to undo the alterations to the boundary (which should force their hand 're letting you use the wall - which you'd be happy to do) but there is most likely a statute of limitations on it after which time the new boundary becomes legal. You'd need to look into this.

    They bought the house as is so no point in looking for any reversal.

    OP I would not for a moment consider building inside: with the legislation, there is no need, you need to show them the link and then discuss it

    Can you answer my other questions about whats there please?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #20
    hdowney
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭hdowney


    Calahonda52 wrote:
    They bought the house as is so no point in looking for any reversal.


    But if the previous owners told them that the arrangement was there for them to build on the wall (as in original owners and neighbours agreed this before the build and original owners convey this to the OP or OPs solictor during purchase) then it is something to bear in mind. However we don't know if any such things took place.

    Agree completely though, no way I'd be building my own wall inside theirs.


  • #21
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    hdowney wrote: »
    Honestly they should not have gotten away with building their extension ON the boundary wall when they built. They should have built INSIDE their boundary. I am wondering when they were building did they consult the then neighbours about it and what was the outcome. There should have been discussion and agreement that the second party (the neighbours NOT building the extension at the time) could use the wall as part of an extension in the future or else the building neighbours build inside their boundary. If they went ahead and built without consultation then I 'think' they illegally changed the boundaries of two houses (not sure on this though). I think there is the possibility of forcing them to undo the alterations to the boundary (which should force their hand 're letting you use the wall - which you'd be happy to do) but there is most likely a statute of limitations on it after which time the new boundary becomes legal. You'd need to look into this.

    Thanks for the response. They said that they have written agreement from the previous owner to build where they did. We haven't seen it yet but I reckon they probably did get it.

    I guess i just want to know is it now considered a party wall, which we can use without their consent.


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  • #22
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,564 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Graffiti wrote: »
    Thanks for the response. They said that they have written agreement from the previous owner to build where they did. We haven't seen it yet but I reckon they probably did get it.

    I guess i just want to know is it now considered a party wall, which we can use without their consent.

    Back then they needed consent, but not now, the suggestion to build inside is flawed because it is still a boundary issue so they can invoke the same legislation as the adding owner.

    You need a works order from the district court to build, this gets over the consent issue, as long as you follow the 5 rules.

    I you don't seem to want to tell us what is on their side or the other stuff I asked, I am all done here: Good luck

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #23
    Graffiti
    Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭Graffiti


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    Back then they needed consent, but not now, the suggestion to build inside is flawed because it is still a boundary issue so they can invoke the same legislation as the adding owner.

    You need a works order from the district court to build, this gets over the consent issue, as long as you follow the 5 rules.

    I you don't seem to want to tell us what is on their side or the other stuff I asked, I am all done here: Good luck

    Calahonda, thanks for your response. I'm not avoiding the questions, just not sure of the answers. Is there dome way I can send a pic?

    Capping on existing wall is flat and overhangs about 4 inches onto our side.

    The wall is pebble dashed on our side and is about a 18inches wide but don't have measurements.

    Don't know what kind of block was used.

    Capping on the newly added blocks to wall would be same as the existing.

    Nothing will overhang from our side to theirs.

    Our builders have advised that the flashing and weather proofing will be done to the same level of what's there currently and will pose no damage/risk to their property.

    Blocks are purely parapet and their function is just to raise the height of the wall and no roof timbers will be placed on them.


  • #24
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,141 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    BryanF wrote: »
    Best of luck with your project

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96873749#post96873749


This discussion has been closed.
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