Nuala O'Faolain...

kelly1 · 18-04-2008 10:26am

tbh wrote: »

she won't.

How do you know that? How do you know that she won't be judged and found wanting when she dies ?

tbh wrote:

I'm also interested in your definition of Christian. Do you think that if Nuala led a good, loving life but didn't go to mass on Sunday, God would turn his/her back on her? Cause, I have to say, that's not what my idea of Christ is.

She has turned her back on God, not the other way around. Unfortunately, that's her choice. I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

tbh · 18-04-2008 10:31am

kelly1 wrote: »

How do you know that? How do you know that she won't be judged and found wanting when she dies ?

There are so many quotes in the bible that tell us not to presume to know the mind of God, why do you insist on saying that you know God better than I or anyone else? It's smug and it's patronising, but above all, it does nothing to help.

She has turned her back on God, not the other way around. Unfortunately, that's her choice. I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

whatever.

robindch · 18-04-2008 10:39am

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

...which reminds me of a similar idea that was posted on B+W the other day:

Diderot wrote:

Another, told by the writer Diderot in the 18th century, is about the journey of Catholic missionaries to Tahiti--a dialogue between a chief named Orou and a priest, who tries to explain the concept of sin.

Orou says that many of the things Europeans find sinful are sources of pride in his island. He doesn’t understand the idea of adultery, since in his culture generosity and sharing are virtues. Marriage to a single man or woman is unnatural and selfish. And surely there can be nothing wrong with being naked and enjoying sexual pleasure for its own sake—otherwise, why do our bodies exist. The horrified priest delivers a long sermon on Christian beliefs, and ends by saying,

“And now that I have explained the laws of our religion, you must do everything to please God and to avoid the pains of hell.”

Orou says, “You mean, when I was ignorant of these commandments, I was innocent, but now that I know them, I am a guilty sinner who might go to hell.”

“Exactly,” the priest says.

“Then why did you tell me?” says Orou.

JimiTime · 18-04-2008 10:56am

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??

I agree, if you were moved by her story about her despairing that this life is all she has, then praying for her to find the hope that lies in Faith in Gods promise is a loving thing to do. However, I would stop short of assuming that she will be condemned. Remember the people who spat, kicked, whipped jeered and then finally impaled our King. Remember Jesus' solemn words. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So we know that its not as black and white as what you are making out. To assume that she is condemned is judging her, and we have not the power to see her heart. 'Judge not lest yee be judged'. I understand your intentions are honourable Noel, but I wouldn't jump the gun on her being doomed. Would a priest, or the catholic church as a whole, teach that this woman is going to hell? Just curious if this is your view or the view of the RC church a s a whole?

Asiaprod · 18-04-2008 2:00pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not saying she's a bad person but she's doing a very bad thing unknowingly. She doesn't realize the danger she's in.

I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing? It brings to mind a quote from your own scriptures, "In my father's house there are many mansions (JOHN 14:2)." How do you interpret this?

CerebralCortex · 18-04-2008 2:24pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I agree, if you were moved by her story about her despairing that this life is all she has, then praying for her to find the hope that lies in Faith in Gods promise is a loving thing to do. However, I would stop short of assuming that she will be condemned. Remember the people who spat, kicked, whipped jeered and then finally impaled our King. Remember Jesus' solemn words. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So we know that its not as black and white as what you are making out. To assume that she is condemned is judging her, and we have not the power to see her heart. 'Judge not lest yee be judged'. I understand your intentions are honourable Noel, but I wouldn't jump the gun on her being doomed. Would a priest, or the catholic church as a whole, teach that this woman is going to hell? Just curious if this is your view or the view of the RC church a s a whole?

I would love to know what you think about that Noel? If I was forced to follow a brand of Christianity I probably think I'd go with this one (never going to happen don't worry

). It seems far more humble and less judgmental. Where is the beauty and the peace of mind in the RC church, its all fire and brimstone? I wonder why?

robindch · 18-04-2008 3:49pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing?

Far as I know, christian belief says that an action is judged solely upon the intention which gave rise to it. Hence, an action isn't "bad" unless you intend it to be bad and you're right to query Noel's understanding (it also seems to get Nuala off the hook, since she doesn't believe that what she's doing is bad) By corollary, I don't think that "good" actions should be called so unless they derive from an intention to be good (which doesn't seem to happen in practice, but that's one of the enjoyably asymmetric qualities of christianity -- you can have your cake, it seems, and eat it).

Same thing happens with the christian definition of dishonesty -- you can't lie "unintentionally" since the definition of "lie" requires an intention to mislead. So, in a christian context, as long as you sincerely believe that something is true, then the factual accuracy of your belief is completely irrelevant and you don't seem to be under any onus to verify the accuracy either. Which goes some way towards explaining, for example, why Bush and Blair (both fervent christians in this sense) assumed no responsibility, nor seem even to have felt any need to assume responsibility, for the consequences of their actions regarding Iraq.

JimiTime · 18-04-2008 4:26pm

robindch wrote: »

Far as I know, christian belief says that an action is judged solely upon the intention which gave rise to it. Hence, an action isn't "bad" unless you intend it to be bad

Not so. An action can still be bad. A person can do the right thing for the wrong reason, or the wrong thing for the right reason. The condition of the heart in these matters is what is truly important.

(it also seems to get Nuala off the hook, since she doesn't believe that what she's doing is bad)

Only God will judge. Just like I said she cannot be condemned, neither can she be acquitted. God is her judge, not you, Noel or me!

Same thing happens with the christian definition of dishonesty -- you can't lie "unintentionally" since the definition of "lie" requires an intention to mislead. So, in a christian context, as long as you sincerely believe that something is true, then the factual accuracy of your belief is completely irrelevant and you don't seem to be under any onus to verify the accuracy either. Which goes some way towards explaining, for example, why Bush and Blair (both fervent christians in this sense) assumed no responsibility, nor seem even to have felt any need to assume responsibility, for the consequences of their actions regarding Iraq.

A very cheap shot. And completely lacks any insight!

robindch · 18-04-2008 4:47pm

JimiTime wrote: »

The condition of the heart in these matters is what is truly important.

Yes, that's exactly what my point is -- in christianity, it's the intention that counts, not the result. And since intention is produced by, and resides within, the believer alone, it doesn't need to have any connection with reality.

Effectively, within christianity, the believer seems to think they have the moral right to do anything at all, as long as they believe it's "good", where they get to define "good" too. It's an ethical free-for-all.

JimiTime wrote: »

A very cheap shot. And completely lacks any insight!

On the contrary, the war in Iraq was the greatest and most disastrous of Bush's "faith-based initiatives".

The "condition of the heart" is important, but must be trumped at all times by reality if you wish to avoid catastrophies like Iraq.

JimiTime · 18-04-2008 4:59pm

robindch wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly what my point is -- in christianity, it's the intention that counts, not the result. And since intention is produced by, and resides within, the believer alone, it doesn't need to have any connection with reality.

Effectively, within christianity, the believer seems to think they have the moral right to do anything at all, as long as they believe it's "good", where they get to define "good" too. It's an ethical free-for-all.

Once again, a lack of insight. But if someones purpose is to shoot down religion, then you have to expect some collateral damage i suppose.

On the contrary, the war in Iraq was the greatest and most disastrous of Bush's "faith-based initiatives".

The "condition of the heart" is important, but must be trumped at all times by reality if you wish to avoid catastrophies like Iraq.

I really don't think you believe some of the nonsense you type.

kelly1 · 18-04-2008 5:16pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing?

Something is wrong/sinful if and only if it goes against God's will. So somebody could easily do something wrong unknowingly. Of course ingorance lessens the person's culpability.

Asiaprod wrote: »

It brings to mind a quote from your own scriptures, "In my father's house there are many mansions (JOHN 14:2)." How do you interpret this?

Good question. I might mean that there's no shortage of space or that the place reserved for each saved person is "built" specially for them. I don't know really.

robindch · 18-04-2008 5:21pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Once again, a lack of insight.

Where do you think that I am going wrong? Are you saying, for example, that the christian idea of "supremacy of conscience" is wrong?

JimiTime wrote: »

I really don't think you believe some of the nonsense you type.

...and are you saying that the Iraq war was fully supported by incontrovertible evidence, or that reality should not trump personal beliefs which are unsupported by evidence, or both? I'm intrigued...

kelly1 · 18-04-2008 5:23pm

JimiTime wrote: »

I agree, if you were moved by her story about her despairing that this life is all she has, then praying for her to find the hope that lies in Faith in Gods promise is a loving thing to do. However, I would stop short of assuming that she will be condemned. Remember the people who spat, kicked, whipped jeered and then finally impaled our King. Remember Jesus' solemn words. 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do'. So we know that its not as black and white as what you are making out. To assume that she is condemned is judging her, and we have not the power to see her heart. 'Judge not lest yee be judged'. I understand your intentions are honourable Noel, but I wouldn't jump the gun on her being doomed. Would a priest, or the catholic church as a whole, teach that this woman is going to hell? Just curious if this is your view or the view of the RC church a s a whole?

I'm not condemning her, it would be wrong of me to judge her. But from where I see it, I fear for her salvation because there is hardly a person in the world who hasn't commited a mortal sin, and keeping in mind she was Nell McC's lover for several years, I say there's a very good chance that she's living in mortal sin. But that's not for me to judge.

Nobody except God knows the state of her soul. But to answer your question, the Church teaches that those who die in a state of mortal sin go to Hell immediately after dying.

kelly1 · 18-04-2008 5:30pm

robindch wrote: »

Where do you think that I am going wrong? Are you saying, for example, that the christian idea of "supremacy of conscience" is wrong?

This is an important point. The conscience needs to be informed and when untrained, it's not terribly good at discerning God's will. That's one of the reasons Christ founded a teaching Church.

Many Catholics don't have much issue with contraception for instance and they will tell you that that contraception is OK because they don't see any wrong in it. But the Church teaches that it's intrinsically disordered. It's God's will that matters and not ours. Our conscience isn't always "sensitive" enough to discern wrongdoing.

Soul Winner · 18-04-2008 11:20pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not condemning her, it would be wrong of me to judge her. But from where I see it, I fear for her salvation because there is hardly a person in the world who hasn't commited a mortal sin, and keeping in mind she was Nell McC's lover for several years, I say there's a very good chance that she's living in mortal sin. But that's not for me to judge.

Nobody except God knows the state of her soul. But to answer your question, the Church teaches that those who die in a state of mortal sin go to Hell immediately after dying.

Noel please read the following especially the highlighted parts:

“There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Luke 16:19-31

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness;” 1 Cor 1:18

Asiaprod · 19-04-2008 5:23am

kelly1 wrote: »

Good question. I might mean that there's no shortage of space or that the place reserved for each saved person is "built" specially for them. I don't know really.

A quick google search will reveal that this statement is often used in reply to the question "If there is a God, how can he condemn all the millions of other good people of other faiths that devote a lot of their time to doing good works." It has been interpreted to mean that there is also a place for all those misguided Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Make a lot of sense to this Buddhist as I believe that any judgment should be on how you lived your life.
Just musing here, don't be offended:)

PDN · 19-04-2008 4:56pm

tbh wrote: »

I think her relationship with God is between herself and God, and not really any of your business. I think actually that your insistence that she approach God through your "path" is quite patronising, and one of the main reasons people like me find people like you quite hard to deal with. God is not hard to find, God is impossible to avoid. Instead of praying that she comes to the same conclusions as you do about God, I personally believe God would be better served if you simply prayed that she has a peaceful passing.

with respect.

If the woman chooses to talk about her relationship with God on national radio then it can hardly be a private matter between herself and God. She put it out into the public domain and so people are entitled to express their views about it.

DublinWriter · 19-04-2008 5:32pm

Asiaprod wrote: »

I am puzzled, how can one do a bad thing unknowingly? Is it not yourself that is deciding it is a bad thing?

I would imagine it's similar to those Tibeten monks who have the ground swept before them as they walk as not to squash any insects or the Janists who wear a cloth over their mouths for similar reasons. Again, it's all about intention.

DublinWriter · 19-04-2008 5:34pm

robindch wrote: »

Far as I know, christian belief says that an action is judged solely upon the intention which gave rise to it.

Where exactly is that stated in the Bible?

robindch · 19-04-2008 8:15pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

Where exactly is that stated in the Bible?

I don't think it's explicitly written down anywhere, but I'm open to correction on that. Instead, I think it's a necessary, if unspoken, component of an ethical system which contains the idea of "sin".

robindch · 19-04-2008 8:23pm

robindch wrote: »

JimiTime wrote: »

Once again, a lack of insight.

Where do you think that I am going wrong? Are you saying, for example, that the christian idea of "supremacy of conscience" is wrong?

JimiTime wrote: »

I really don't think you believe some of the nonsense you type.

...and are you saying that the Iraq war was fully supported by incontrovertible evidence, or that reality should not trump personal beliefs which are unsupported by evidence, or both? I'm intrigued...

Jimi...?

Nuala O'Faolain...

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