fighting/ baiting dogs for sale

BennyLava · 29-07-2009 1:39pm #1

I can't prove it, but ther are a lot of ads on donedeal.ie lately selling "working dogs" all appear to be for terriers

an example
"patterdale pups 4dogs 4bitchs. mother and father are working under the ground. these pups are bred to work. fully wormed and injected"

Would I be wrong in thinking these sound like baiters/ fighting dogs

Have reported some of the ads to DoneDeal but havn't heard anything back
no proof I guess

nice looking puppies, hope I'm wrong for their sake:(

Clare Bear · 29-07-2009 1:41pm

Whether they are or not you can't prove it unfortunately. By working they might mean hunting dogs. Some dodgy people on those sites though so I wouldn't be suprised.

meathstevie · 29-07-2009 1:47pm

I'd say the overwhelming majority are fox terriers, absolutely nothing illegal about that. Having said that, just like the former poster, there's probably the odd dodgy one in the mix as well.

babystrawberry · 29-07-2009 4:52pm

What i cant get over is the increase in the amount of these 'working' dogs for sale in the past few months on donedeal?? Also there is a huge amount of lurchers being sold as 'working' well day and night/on the lamp/good on rabbits etc

I would have thought the 'working' term referred to hunting but u really cannot trust people anymore.
Also lurchers would not ahve a 'soft'mouth, what people have done is somehow break their teeth so they are left with buts, by doing this they will not puncture the skin of what they return , very sad and infuriating case tbh (have seen cruelty cases of this)

arybvtcw0eolkf · 29-07-2009 11:40pm

babystrawberry wrote: »

I would have thought the 'working' term referred to hunting but u really cannot trust people anymore.
Also lurchers would not ahve a 'soft'mouth, what people have done is somehow break their teeth so they are left with buts, by doing this they will not puncture the skin of what they return , very sad and infuriating case tbh (have seen cruelty cases of this)

Honestly, this is new to me. Care to fill us in?.

I know in my area Lurchers are highly sought after by a certain section of our community (a traditionally nomandic people) who will have your heart broken until the animal is stolen, the same people cut or slice the dogs ear's to mark the dog as theirs but I've never come accross a case of the dogs teeth being broken - thats equally as sick.

.

babystrawberry · 30-07-2009 8:44am

Yea, came across it in a place i used to volounteer, and when i saw the case the girls were saying they see a few lurcher types come in in an year that would have the same thing done, the poor dog was in a pitiful state as u can just imagine the pain it was in.
It was the front 2 large canines had been snapped (how this was done without pulling out he teeth in beyond me, possibly doen when it was a pup?)

It would also be why you see lurchers for sale (particulalry on donedeal.ie) where they have been crossed with a bull breed (english bull terrier/staffie). The reason I believe they do this is becaues the bull breed would have much larger, softer type mouth ....which is a trait they would like to introduce to their urcher ....I could be wrong on that now but it would be my take on it

But other than that the teeth being broken is the worst case I had come across, the dog was not even a stray, he had to be taken off his owner :mad:

BryanL · 30-07-2009 12:59pm

Guys ye are way out leftfield here.

Working type/lines or working bred means for hunting. Like working jack russel would mean the parents are used for some form of hunting, be it hunting through bushes for rabbits or underground bolting foxes.

Why would someone add bull terrier for a soft mouth? come on now. Soft mouth means they catch rabbits without bruising them, like gun dogs.

My friend , a vet , has a terrier that damaged most of his teeth chewing any stone he could find as a young dog. In the end he couldn't be left in the garden unattended.
Bryan

Whispered · 30-07-2009 1:19pm

As far as I know, soft mouth has nothing to do with the dogs teeth, but with their natural bite. Retriever type dogs, would be bred to have a "soft mouth" meaning they carry prey gently to avoid damage.

I have never seen a lurcher x bully but I would imagine they are magnificent looking dogs. Are they babystrawberry?

My dog is a staffy x lab. He has the muscly and toned shoulders/chest of a staff and their very proud way of standing, He has the playfulness of a staff and the absolute adoration for his people staffs are famous for. But he has long graceful legs and a love of swimming and "fetching" which we atribute to the lab part of him. I know that means nothing to this thread, but meh, I wanted to brag about my boy. :cool:

babystrawberry · 30-07-2009 1:44pm

helena.ryan wrote: »

As far as I know, soft mouth has nothing to do with the dogs teeth, but with their natural bite. Retriever type dogs, would be bred to have a "soft mouth" meaning they carry prey gently to avoid damage.

I have never seen a lurcher x bully but I would imagine they are magnificent looking dogs. Are they babystrawberry?

My dog is a staffy x lab. He has the muscly and toned shoulders/chest of a staff and their very proud way of standing, He has the playfulness of a staff and the absolute adoration for his people staffs are famous for. But he has long graceful legs and a love of swimming and "fetching" which we atribute to the lab part of him. I know that means nothing to this thread, but meh, I wanted to brag about my boy. :cool:

its just the conclusion i came to for seeing all these lurchers crossed with bull breeds ..... its the only thing i could think why they would do it ... something to do wiht mouth? I know that spaniels and retrievng breeds have soft mouths ... bull breeds would not be the first breed u would think when one would say 'soft mouth' but for the sake of these ads i have seen on donedeal its what i am kinda putting as an answer maybe ...... goo chance i am wrong on it!!!

I know also when someone says the dog is 'working' that it means hunting, good hunting strain, ratters etc

Helena, id say ur staffie x is lovely, we used to have a staffie few years ago, if i ever was to get a pedigree it would no doubt be one. Herself nd an old greyhound of ours used to share a kennel ...2 right auld ones they used to be like lol.
Have never seen a staffies x lab cross ... i'd say he is smashing

Magenta · 30-07-2009 2:11pm

Yeah I have noticed in the past few months, a big increase in the amount of working dogs for sale there.

Donedeal has some decent breeders selling their pups but there's a hell of a lot of ads from people who clearly aren't decent breeders/decent owners/responsible. There's repeated ads from one particular person, always selling puppies- Bichons, Westies and the like. There are always photos and the puppies always look manky, in a dark shed with little bedding. Often this person has different litters for sale at once. I've reported them before but Donedeal don't seem to care. They told me to take it to the ISPCA which I did but I never heard back and the person still has a new litter every other week.

Then you've the people selling puppies they've only had for a matter of weeks because of "new house", "emigration", "new work commitments", "baby due soon" etc. I'm sorry, but new houses, emigration, babies, new jobs don't appear overnight. If you are 4 months pregnant and buy a puppy then guess what? The puppy will still need looking after when the baby is born, so if you can't deal with that then don't get the puppy in the first place.

I've also seen ads, 'For sale as she can no longer be bred", which makes me sad.

babystrawberry · 30-07-2009 2:14pm

Magenta wrote: »

Yeah I have noticed in the past few months, a big increase in the amount of working dogs for sale there.

Donedeal has some decent breeders selling their pups but there's a hell of a lot of ads from people who clearly aren't decent breeders/decent owners/responsible. There's repeated ads from one particular person, always selling puppies- Bichons, Westies and the like. There are always photos and the puppies always look manky, in a dark shed with little bedding. Often this person has different litters for sale at once. I've reported them before but Donedeal don't seem to care. They told me to take it to the ISPCA which I did but I never heard back and the person still has a new litter every other week.

Then you've the people selling puppies they've only had for a matter of weeks because of "new house", "emigration", "new work commitments", "baby due soon" etc. I'm sorry, but new houses, emigration, babies, new jobs don't appear overnight. If you are 4 months pregnant and buy a puppy then guess what? The puppy will still need looking after when the baby is born, so if you can't deal with that then don't get the puppy in the first place.

I've also seen ads, 'For sale as she can no longer be bred", which makes me sad.

+1

murph101 · 13-02-2011 8:50pm

If its an ad for a working patterdale terrier it more than likely means the dog is used for badger baiting! Other working terriers are usually for foxes and rats! The term "working terrier" is being used a lot lately because badger baiting has become very popular again! Personaly i cant understand the so called sport of digging badgers but sure whatevee your into.

jap gt · 13-02-2011 8:56pm

murph101 wrote: »

If its an ad for a working patterdale terrier it more than likely means the dog is used for badger baiting! Other working terriers are usually for foxes and rats! The term "working terrier" is being used a lot lately because badger baiting has become very popular again! Personaly i cant understand the so called sport of digging badgers but sure whatevee your into.

any link to back this up, patterdale are a fox dog

Shanao · 13-02-2011 8:59pm

Just one of many links. About four paragraphs down: http://www.care2.com/c2c/groups/disc.html?gpp=20665&pst=1343229

Discodog · 13-02-2011 9:08pm

jap gt wrote: »

any link to back this up, patterdale are a fox dog

From Google - click on the link & the page has been removed !

Southern Patterdale Kennel : Yard

Our first patterdale, proven worker on fox and badger. An authentic working terrier, very intense and very big personnality ! ...
www.patterdale-terrier.fr/KENNEL_MANAGER_WEB.../Yard.htm - Cached

People used to advertise "Brock" dogs but now they just put "working" & the reader will text/ring for further info. Sometimes they will add "strong dog, brave dog, good underground" etc as coded info for badger baiting.

Chris_Heilong · 13-02-2011 10:20pm

"good at working under the ground.." It has got to be code for them being good at underground dog fighting or maybe I am reading to deep into this.

ISDW · 13-02-2011 10:23pm

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

"good at working under the ground.." It has got to be code for them being good at underground dog fighting or maybe I am reading to deep into this.

No, it means for going into animal's dens under the ground, foxes etc.

sligopark · 13-02-2011 11:02pm

Whispered wrote: »

I have never seen a lurcher x bully but I would imagine they are magnificent looking dogs.

The Sweeper · 13-02-2011 11:29pm

A 'soft mouth' just means the dog has good bite inhibition. Teeth are teeth - they're hard and pointy, all dogs have them. Retrievers are trained to pick up and return birds without biting into the bird or chewing on it as they're coming back with it. That's good bite inhibition, and a dog who returns a bird unmarked can be described as having a soft mouth.

A lurcher / bull terrier cross would be similar types called 'bull arabs' in Australia where they are used for hunting feral pigs (big black hair wild boar, basically). The bull breed isn't introduced for its bite inhibition - it's introduced as a holder. Pig hunting is quite common in rural Australia. Feral pigs are a pest and farmers grant permission to hunters to hunt the pigs on their land.

This isn't like Irish farmland - well worked and rolling green fields. This is hundreds of acres of scrubby, thorny bushland, dry, high grasses, sometimes feral introduced blackberry bushes cover the ground thickly. It goes up into hills and drops out into dry gullies. You'd be hard pressed to drive a proper 4x4 (not a soccer mom mobile) through this countryside a lot of the time, so they send dogs in and the hunters follow. The dogs have to be tenacious, driven and hard, because they're working hard country. The bull 'terrier' mix introduces that tenacity (and a big set of jaws).

There are a variety of 'skills' in a bull arab or 'pig dog'. Some dogs find the pigs in dense bushland, some dogs chase them out into the open, and some dogs grab onto the boar's ears to hold it while the hunter comes with a gun or a knife. Often a dog with a good nose, a good 'finder', won't have the mettle needed to grab hold of the ear of an 80kg wild boar (and who'd blame it, have you seen the tusks on those things??). A 'holder' may not have the speed to keep up with the boar when it's flushed from cover. A bailer may not have the nose to find the pig in the first place.

Subsequently the 'pig dog' genus is an ever-changing variety of mutt. The bull arab started off as a cross between a german short-haired pointer, a saluki and an english bull terrier. The pointer provided the hunting instinct and the size and proportions, the saluki added speed and height and a fineness, the bull terrier tempered that fineness back into muscle and bulk and a big set of jaws on one end.

Other hunters introduce bull mastiffs, great danes, so on and so forth into the mix for size etc.

My dog's a bull arab cross - he's big but not giant. My guy shows the basic hunting instincts - he'll stalk and point at insects and frogs in the yard, and shake his toys furiously (soft mouth?? no chance!!), but he also shows the other thing the dog was bred for, which is friendliness and gentleness at home.

The point of this is that most working / hunting dogs are bred to absolutely NOT be dog aggressive. You can't work a dog that wants to fight with the dogs around it. You can't let a dog like that off the leash and send it after a rabbit if all it's going to do is turn on the dog next to it and start a roaring row.

Subsequently what you're probably seeing on dondeal is ads for dogs for hunting - good workers underground are dogs that'll go after rabbits, foxes and badgers in their own burrows (most often rabbits).

The flare-up in these sales can be directly tied to the current economic conditions in Ireland. Some folk will literally be eating what the dogs catch - or hunting the dogs for entertainment and letting them eat what they catch, so they don't have to pay for kibble to feed them. I've read articles before that link an increase in hunting to poor socioeconomic conditions - but not in the same way as dogfighting.

It's highly unlikely that the dogs you're seeing are being advertised for dog fighting. There can still be unscrupulous acts of animal cruelty involved in training up a dog for hunting, but unless hunting is illegal (and hunting rabbits is not about to be made illegal any time soon in Ireland), you can't complain effectively to the advertising site.

flyo · 14-02-2011 11:57am

BennyLava wrote: »

I can't prove it, but ther are a lot of ads on donedeal.ie lately selling "working dogs" all appear to be for terriers

an example
"patterdale pups 4dogs 4bitchs. mother and father are working under the ground. these pups are bred to work. fully wormed and injected"

Would I be wrong in thinking these sound like baiters/ fighting dogs

Have reported some of the ads to DoneDeal but havn't heard anything back
no proof I guess

nice looking puppies, hope I'm wrong for their sake:(

of course there being used for going to ground n=and fighting wether its badgers or rabits but most likly badgers,the people who do bager baiting most of come out from towns,it goes on more than people think

Chris_Heilong · 14-02-2011 6:53pm

"No, it means for going into animal's dens under the ground, foxes etc." Well I know that, all I meant was maybe its code, something to do with the wording. Anyway It just depends on who buys them I guess.

Spunk84 · 14-02-2011 7:50pm

Seriously are you lot hearing yourselfs?? The reason your getting no reply to your emails from Donedeal is that it is very slanderous indeed. Have you worked dogs before? if you have done any sort of hunting with terriers you would know a dog who has been hunting only badger will have no lips, no ears and probably no nose in a very shot space of time, where witha fox it's minimal damage.

A working terrier is a working terrier. whether it's rats, rabbits and foxes! Which isnt illegal. Patterdales are the best terriers for foxes and that's why they are sought after so much.

As for fighting dogs, NO they are not advertised on Irish sites and if they are 9 out 10 they are the Gards looking for arrests. people pay thousands of euros for these animals for the purpose of illegal fighting, so you really think there going to advertise a dog with wounds on donedeal? What you don't relies is that donedeal, buyandsell, Gumtree etc etc are all monitored by the police north and south for stolen items, animal cruelty and other crimes.

Also you don't have dog fights underground, the term " underground" refers to working or going to earth, working holes is another way of saying it, the terrier will go into a fox hole or rabbit hole and search for quarry

Soft mouthed dogs are only for rabbits and game birds as they don't damaged the meat, thus making the meat fit for consumption, were in a recession so there is a huge increase in hunting as many people have time on their hands.

Hard mouth dogs can be any dog breed, I have a Lab and a springer which are hard mouthed, which means they bite down to hard on game, thus destroying the meat.

People who hunt want to know if the dog is hard or soft mouth before they buy.

The reason bull breeds are used in hunting, it gives the dog more of a better muscular build and a better bite, you will see many sighthounds crossed with a bull to make the head bigger so that it can kill a fox quickly and more humanly than having a few whippets,Lurchers etc tear it to shreds.

On your reference to dogs teeth being "broken" or "ripped" out, I can call Bull@hite, no way are working dogs teeth pulled as it stops them working, as for the illegal ear docking, yes this happens and is very sickening to see but the main reason is that the dog has been stolen and its id tattoo from the ear was removed so is not to identify the dog

As it's illegal to badger bait I can guarantee the people who have badger dogs are not selling them on DoneDeal;) as with the fighting dogs they are worth from 500-thousands.

I do not condone any sort of badger or fighting of dogs of any kind, I think it's cruel, I do however condone the use of terriers for foxing. I have hunted for many many years, so I think I have a good opinion on the topicp

Discodog · 14-02-2011 9:13pm

Good opinion ?. The idea that the Guards would have any concept of a fighting or baiting dog is laughable. Some people arranged a dog pull & because the ISPCA had tipped them off the Guards arrived.

One Guard got out of the car & asked who was "in charge". One man came forward & the Guard said "I am just checking that you are not allowing any dog fighting here". The organiser said "No of course not" & the Guards drove off !.

I also really doubt that the Guards monitor online sights for fighting dogs, stolen goods etc.

fighting/ baiting dogs for sale

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