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Islamic forum doesn't allow critics at all?

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    #32
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    As the former mod of the Islam forum, I believe I have a unique perspective on all of this. For the record, I have lived and worked among Muslims for the past number of years, so I feel I can speak with some authority on the matter. As it turns out, I have probably visited more mosques in the past number of years that I have Catholic churches. Don't tell my mother.

    There are essentially three types of posters on the Islam forum.

    Type #1 - outraged at tragedies such as the abhorrent acts we saw on Friday in Paris. Or, some other act somewhere that was carried out by Muslims, or claiming to be in the name of Islam. Or, people who get their news from the likes of Sky News/Fox News/Daily Mail and thrive on stereotypes and gross generalisations.

    Type #2 - Muslims, the vast majority of whom do not appear to have English as their first language and accordingly are not used to such nuances as the etiquette of the site, various English language constructs and how they are interpreted in a text medium such as Boards.ie. In addition to this, add in various other idiosyncrasies that, to be blunt, drive native-English speakers to distraction.

    Type #3 - And I would place myself into this category, people who have a genuine interest in the religion, can see past the extremist views, possibly have a hard time reconciling what went on in Paris, with the claims of Islam of being a religion of peace, yet are informed enough and open-minded enough to appreciate that the type of people who undertake such acts have bigger issues than their faith and that such people are not representative of Muslims and Islam.

    In my naivety, I took on the task of modding the Islam forum to try and dispel some of the myths around the religion. Where I work and live, I have found the people to be some of the most caring, friendly, fun-loving, beer-drinking (seriously - I've had more beers bought for me by men in thobes than I ever had in Ireland. Not that a man, dressed in a thobe has ever bought me a drink in Ireland), dope-smoking people, who are a pleasure to be around. Have a look at "The great Ask about Islam thread" it was going well for a while. However, it is clear that there is no room for reasoned debate on the forum. Pretty much all of the Muslims who used to post on the forum have left, I assume continually having to defend your beliefs is just simply not worth it for them.

    So all were are left with is the Type #1 poster. Posters who feel they have the right to be outraged (no issue with that, to be honest), who feel the need to vent, yet who cannot express themselves in a civil manner without resorting to jaded stereotypes and gross generalisations. As an example, in one thread, I had to ban discussion of mensuration. Yes, seriously. It got that f**king ridiculous.

    I stood down from moderating the Islam forum because, to be frank, I was sick of it. I tried to bring the voice of reason, but neither side was willing to compromise. Sadly, a statement that appears to resonate with the current state of affairs in many places in the world today.


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    #33
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »
    Thankless job modding that forum imo. Trolls and zealots, point scoring posts the order of the day, what could possibly go wrong.

    and that coming from a Soccer forum mod! :pac:

    The level of debate with regard to Islamist inspired actions across boards is barely above playground level. I'm reluctant to start a thread such is likelihood of it being tuned into a ignorant argument with a lot of quoting of context free screeds.


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    #34
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Thanks very much for taking the time to post Tom, its interesting to get some back story into the current situation.
    Its very unfortunate that you felt you had to stand down in the end but to be honest I can understand it, I don't envy the job Taltos currently has but I hope that things can eventually change in the forum at some point.

    I don't see the forum as getting a special protected status but I can understand why it is the way it is at present. While personally I'm not religious simply outright hating any religion across the board is foolish as they are not going away.

    Instead its better if discussions can happen as these can help both sides to better understand each other, we will of course have posters who will troll or just be upset from actions done in the name of a religion and also posters who can't see past their strict religious views.... but they shouldn't stop a discussion in the long term.


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    #35
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Interesting post Tom , and interesting that Muslims didn't want to defend their beliefs.
    In the Christianity forum, we have no problem being accused, abused and questioned about our beliefs.
    The amount of abuse I've received from some Catholics alone who consider me a heretic and aa communist is appalling!
    Not to mention the evolutionists who deride my faith.
    If people who align themselves with a faith can't defend themselves and need a protected status to even take part in a forum, the forum should be deleted.
    Granted, no one should be abused but if they can't be questioned and at times interrogated and give answers for what they beleive , they serve no purpose.
    For the record, I've good friends who converted from Islam 30 years ago and were kicked out of their family home. Their father is all leader in the mosque in their city.(not in Ireland). Family ties have healed but no one from their church is welcome in the house, except me when I've visited. Have to say, their openness to me is amazing.


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    #36
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Presumably Muslims do not defend their faith because they do not know how to - in the sense that they have never had to and have no concept of arguing it. They may not offer individual opinions, all they can do is quote authorities and the Qur'an, which does not make for a very interesting argument.

    I agree that religious forums should not have to constantly defend their faith, but defending it against abuse, and discussing it, is not the same thing.


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    #37
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    looksee wrote: »
    Presumably Muslims do not defend their faith because they do not know how to - in the sense that they have never had to and have no concept of arguing it. They may not offer individual opinions, all they can do is quote authorities and the Qur'an, which does not make for a very interesting argument.

    In this day and age I doubt this is the case especially if the person is living in Western Europe, USA etc. I'm sure they've faced critics...unless they've lived a very sheltered life.


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    #38
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Cabaal wrote: »
    In this day and age I doubt this is the case especially if the person is living in Western Europe, USA etc. I'm sure they've faced critics...unless they've lived a very sheltered life.

    Not necessarily, many older Christians will refuse to discuss their faith even though there is no restriction on them. There is a sense of its 'not proper' to discuss it. Or they would rather not think about it. Someone who has been brought up not to question will have difficulty doing so.


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    #39
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    looksee wrote: »
    Not necessarily, many older Christians will refuse to discuss their faith even though there is no restriction on them. There is a sense of its 'not proper' to discuss it. Or they would rather not think about it. Someone who has been brought up not to question will have difficulty doing so.

    Never having to listen to critics and refusing to listen to critics are two very different things though ;)

    I'd agree that there are certainly those that refuse to acknowledge flaws or abuses by those who also follow the same religion. Hell, I've met Catholics who think the abuse is made up to ruin the church or that it is not a big deal because it happened decades ago so why do people keep going on about.

    Some people find anything critical about their faith hard to deal with,

    I suppose when it comes to the Islamic forum if people don't want to be involved in anything critical of their faith they are simply not going to post.

    For those that simply reply with just religious versus/texts then they need to be told to up their game and actually properly interact in the forum or stop posting, such responses wouldn't be ok in the Christian forum so they certainly shouldn't be ok in the Islamic one.


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    #40
    Taltos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,830 ✭✭✭✭Taltos


    In an ideal world I'd agree with you all guys.

    But - just in the last few days we've been dealing with posters who are just outright trolling the forum.
    "Islam isn't a religion" etc etc etc and thats the best of the PMs I've had the pleasure to deal with as well as "God Bless you", I'm the mod there, I've never once said what if any faith I am but come on.

    Total codswhallop. So with crud like that do you really think there are many folk hanging about trying to help others understand their religion?
    Right now as you'd expect we've had a rake of political posts, or rants etc with some posters ignoring mod instruction intentionally or posting vague seemingly innocuous questions which to be frank would be fine except elsewhere they're posting that all muslims are terrorists.

    I mean cop on a sec.

    So as above we're weeding them out. Trying to create a safe space to get in sufficient numbers of regulars who are willing to debate and discuss their faith in a way that right now they cannot. I mean if mods are being forced to consider their positions as a result of this numpty behaviour do you really thing we're getting a huge volume of regulars hanging about?

    As to criticism - that will come - once its constructive and fair and people are open to new ideas. This "Islam isn't a religion" nonsense frankly is only being posted to get a reaction and it will - a ban and deleted posts.

    Also to the walls of text or quotes from the Quran - that's been banned for a while now and will result in similar mod action. We all want the forum to be a safe place for the open and frank interchange of ideas from both Muslims' and others. What we don't want is it to be the site to goto when there is a terrorist attack. Being labelled a terrorist just because of your faith or because of where you're from is not nice (speaking from experience here after a train journey up North during one of the London bombing runs), and it's not something I'll tolerate. The problem I face is that some posters are intent on causing mischief, and it's hard to spot them, so I'm relying on reporting posts and their history of posts on Islam to help weed them out - not nice but until we get to a point where we attract and retain those willing and open to discuss their faith to help others learn more about that side of the fence and in turn be open to fair criticism then we've got an up hill battle. As above the old trite posts of M was a paedo is tiresome and frankly insulting. Place yourself in their position, if every other post in Christianity was "Christ bonked and married a whore" or "The Dark Ages never ended, the Church is still killing non-believers but with <insert disease/etc>", how soon do you think it would be before similar hard modding was applied?

    Either way this thread has been really useful if only in bringing the challenges and poison being faced by those of the Faith here on Boards. And yes, if this fails and we don't create the safe place then naturally the Islam forum will be closed, but not before we try our best to create a forum relatively free of the dim-witted haters from both sides.


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    #41
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,893 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    looksee wrote: »
    Presumably Muslims do not defend their faith because they do not know how to - in the sense that they have never had to and have no concept of arguing it.

    Well there's your problem right there regarding the extreme few that commit atrocities in the name of the faith; trying to off people for criticizing them or cartoonifying it.


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    #42
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I suppose when it comes to the Islamic forum if people don't want to be involved in anything critical of their faith they are simply not going to post.

    For those that simply reply with just religious versus/texts then they need to be told to up their game and actually properly interact in the forum or stop posting, such responses wouldn't be ok in the Christian forum so they certainly shouldn't be ok in the Islamic one.

    Absolutely agree, I was simply suggesting that that is the only response available to them, it would be great if we got more who would be prepared to discuss and explain their faith beyond 'that's what the Qur'an says'.


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    #43
    Benny_Cake
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    I think it's a numbers issue in many ways, even the Christianity forum has a very limited group of Christians posting there and there are a heck of a lot more Christians than Muslims in Ireland. To encourage intelligent, thoughtful Muslim posters to participate there does need to be some sort of control exercised over the bigotry that bubbles to the surface at times like this. The Islam forum at its best could be a place for Muslims and non-Muslims to debate, as well as for Muslims to discuss their faith amongst themselves.

    On the Christianity forum there was a policy of creating megathreads to avoid other threads being completely sidetracked by repetitive topics (the existence of God, evolution). It had it's pros and cons in my experience, but perhaps it's something that could be attempted?


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    #44
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    On the Christianity forum there was a policy of creating megathreads to avoid other threads being completely sidetracked by repetitive topics (the existence of God, evolution). It had it's pros and cons in my experience, but perhaps it's something that could be attempted?

    I think there's certainly merit to this idea, this allows stuff to be discussed but without creating too much noise in the rest of the forum which no doubt would be very off putting to Muslims that did wish to actively take part in the forum....which would be understandable to be fair.

    My concern is taking for example http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057522505

    The thread lasted only a few days before it was locked perhaps because a user decided to start questioning the mod on the thread.

    Now in fairness we all know disputing a mod decision on thread is a big no no, the user claims they are not challenging the mod note but its clear as day they are, so I'm all for action against the user upto and including a ban for this type of nonsense.

    However, I'd rather see a thread like the above have strict rules to whats expected and see action taken against users who ignored these rules then see it locked just because one person decides to ignore a site wide rule.

    I do understand that there's work involved in this type of thread modding wise but at least this would allow the noise to be limited to a thread rather then numerous small threads that just ended up getting locked.

    It would also allow clear rules in relation to posting in the thread to be set out in the opening post. Any thoughts on this Taltos?


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    #45
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    It's not a religion that tolerates criticism. You can't worship and critcise at the same time.

    So in order to be respectful to its proslytising fora, it has to shut down the criticism.


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    #46
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    Isn't discussion of terrorist attacks just kind of off-topic for the Islam forum? Isn't it more suited to something like politics?

    If there was an IRA bombing, wouldn't the Christianity forum find it a little daft that loads of people were posting topics about how violent Christians are?


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    #47
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,419 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Taltos wrote:
    Either way this thread has been really useful if only in bringing the challenges and poison being faced by those of the Faith here on Boards.

    Tbh, Taltos, I think that's a really poor attitude. This thread has given numerous valid examples of the issues people have with the way the forum is run and yet you choose to see it as just more Islamophobia.

    A lot of people genuinely have trouble understanding Islamic attitudes towards women, etc yet any questioning *at all* is immediately deemed to be trolling and shut down. We can all see the true trolls a mile off, which is why it's become problematic that any criticism of or even curiosity about Islam is cut off due to a unilateral decision by a mod.

    Why not have a sticky for the questions that come up over and over and update the charter to reflect that?

    Also, personally I think there's a huge double-standard at play when a request for a dedicated Catholic forum was turned down because it was deemed as essentially requesting preferential treatment and wanting to stifle debate, when this is exactly what he Islam forum is getting.

    And just for the record, I'm agnostic so have no vested interest on any side.


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    #48
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Isn't discussion of terrorist attacks just kind of off-topic for the Islam forum? Isn't it more suited to something like politics?

    If there was an IRA bombing, wouldn't the Christianity forum find it a little daft that loads of people were posting topics about how violent Christians are?

    Not always. You can't talk about modern democracies without Protestantism. Their revolution was all about getting away from Rome and the divine right of kings.

    The Middle East has religion, territory and politics all fused, so to answer your question, no.


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    #49
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Not always. You can't talk about modern democracies without Protestantism. Their revolution was all about getting away from Rome and the divine right of kings.

    The Middle East has religion, territory and politics all fused, so to answer your question, no.
    Ok, to rephrase. Wouldn't they be better discussed on more relevant forums? Such as politics?

    By bringing it up in in the Islam forum it assumes that terrorists are violent because they are Islamic, not because of other factors.
    To compare to the IRA again, the IRAs actions are usually explained by things like British oppression etc.(not saying that's right or wrong, just that its the usual narrative), there's never any implication that it's down to Christianity being inherently violent. I think this is a double-standard.


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    #50
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    Ok, to rephrase. Wouldn't they be better discussed on more relevant forums? Such as politics?

    By bringing it up in in the Islam forum it assumes that terrorists are violent because they are Islamic, not because of other factors.
    To compare to the IRA again, the IRAs actions are usually explained by things like British oppression etc.(not saying that's right or wrong, just that its the usual narrative), there's never any implication that it's down to Christianity being inherently violent. I think this is a double-standard.

    Why not?

    The IRA was very much tied into the Catholic theocracy that forged the Independent state, to the people that sent their daughters to the Laundries, to the people that let the Church abuse their children....

    So yes there is something about Irish Catholicism that was inherintly violent.... it was given birth to by violence.... ffs look athe world wide rep Catholic school has in using extremely cruel forms of punishment.

    I think it is entirely valid to ask followers of such ideologiess to ask them selves why they are slaves?


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    #51
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,142 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    The IRA were operating in the name of republicanism, the Islamic terrorists are operating in the name of - well - Islam, hence the name Islamic State. Obviously this does not represent all Muslims, and some Muslims are victims of IS, but without discussion it is difficult for outsiders to know who thinks what within Islam.


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    #52
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    looksee wrote: »
    The IRA were operating in the name of republicanism, the Islamic terrorists are operating in the name of - well - Islam, hence the name Islamic State. Obviously this does not represent all Muslims, and some Muslims are victims of IS, but without discussion it is difficult for outsiders to know who thinks what within Islam.

    The republicanism served a theocracy, no matter what label you want to slap on it. Irish taliban sounds good.

    You have this problem with all ideologies, feminists who claim to speak for all women, blah blah blah.... oh yeah its not me it
    s just the extremists...well...honey you are there to make the moderates look good.


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    #53
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    looksee wrote: »
    The IRA were operating in the name of republicanism, the Islamic terrorists are operating in the name of - well - Islam, hence the name Islamic State. Obviously this does not represent all Muslims, and some Muslims are victims of IS, but without discussion it is difficult for outsiders to know who thinks what within Islam.
    What you are looking for is the Saudi Arabian version of Sunni islam (or Wahhabism) which I'd highly doubt you'll ever find anyone in Ireland who's actually following it (or people who are following it who'd discuss it).

    That's the root to the great majority of Islamic teachings of terrorists (an extremist version of how to interpret the Koran and all the dogmas) which is state funded brain washing which was implemented in Afghanistan etc. and to no real surprise also the same teachings taught in the Mosque's (funded by Saudi Arabia) the Paris terrorists frequented in Belgium. Now to put that in parallel in Christianity you'd need to take any pick of the extreme right wing nutcase churches and claim because of what they say they represent all Christians world wide and insist you explain why your religion promotes genocide (because that nut case religion said so and hence it has to apply to everyone).


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    #54
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Nody wrote: »
    What you are looking for is the Saudi Arabian version of Sunni islam (or Wahhabism) which I'd highly doubt you'll ever find anyone in Ireland who's actually following it (or people who are following it who'd discuss it).

    That's the root to the great majority of Islamic teachings of terrorists (an extremist version of how to interpret the Koran and all the dogmas) which is state funded brain washing which was implemented in Afghanistan etc. and to no real surprise also the same teachings taught in the Mosque's (funded by Saudi Arabia) the Paris terrorists frequented in Belgium. Now to put that in parallel in Christianity you'd need to take any pick of the extreme right wing nutcase churches and claim because of what they say they represent all Christians world wide and insist you explain why your religion promotes genocide (because that nut case religion said so and hence it has to apply to everyone).

    Let's take this as reasonable.

    If that is the case, right wing nut job Christians are still Christians and yes criticism of them and their religion should be tolerated on a Christian forum.

    The right wing Christian nut job abortion laws of Ireland for example, yes Catholics should have to answer to this radically cruel practise to the women of this nation.

    There is no reason why it should not be.

    But this is not going to happen on boards because boards has a number of fora for its protected species and is particularly vulnerable to kool aid drinking group think.


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    #55
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    Let's take this as reasonable.

    If that is the case, right wing nut job Christians are still Christians and yes criticism of them and their religion should be tolerated on a Christian forum.

    The right wing Christian nut job abortion laws of Ireland for example, yes Catholics should have to answer to this radically cruel practise to the women of this nation.

    There is no reason why it should not be.
    Because their acts have nothing to do with their claimed religion; it's only their excuse and it would be more suitable in politics (as all terrorism is politics). If you wished to discuss what part of the bible that supported/was against abortion I'd say you'd possibly have that discussion in the Christian forum.


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    #56
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Nody wrote: »
    Because their acts have nothing to do with their claimed religion; it's only their excuse and it would be more suitable in politics (as all terrorism is politics). If you wished to discuss what part of the bible that supported/was against abortion I'd say you'd possibly have that discussion in the Christian forum.

    You can't seperate the two.

    You are applying post - enlightenment {separation of church and state} thinking to religions which did not have an enlightenment and you are paradoxically being Euro-centric.

    The abortion laws are distinctly CATHOLIC... and also constitutional because they are the remnants/outputs of the theocracy.

    The acts of Isis are a direct product of wanting everyone to be Islamic. Islam is at the center of Isis.


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    #57
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    You can't seperate the two.

    You are applying post - enlightenment {separation of church and state} thinking to religions which did not have an enlightenment and you are paradoxically being Euro-centric.

    The abortion laws are distinctly CATHOLIC... and also constitutional because they are the remnants/outputs of the theocracy.

    The acts of Isis are a direct product of wanting everyone to be Islamic. Islam is at the center of Isis.
    Of course you can; I've had plenty of discussions about Islam with Muslims without problem and I've met the same set of knuckle draggers who are Muslims as well. The separation has nothing to do with the religion and all to do with the enlightenment of the person you're speaking to; in the same way you have the American new Christians claiming the bible says this and that who've actually never read the bible they are claiming to follow. Does that mean all Christians are bible humpers without a clue? Of course not; it simply means there are morons in every religion.


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    #58
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Nody wrote: »
    Of course you can; I've had plenty of discussions about Islam with Muslims without problem and I've met the same set of knuckle draggers who are Muslims as well. The separation has nothing to do with the religion and all to do with the enlightenment of the person you're speaking to; in the same way you have the American new Christians claiming the bible says this and that who've actually never read the bible they are claiming to follow. Does that mean all Christians are bible humpers without a clue? Of course not; it simply means there are morons in every religion.

    To some extent, yes all Christians have moronic streaks. In some ways yes, they are.

    The enlightened religious person, will recognize that you can't separate religion from politics and power, it's the brainwashed ones who can't see it.


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    #59
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,270 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    To some extent, yes all Christians have moronic streaks. In some ways yes, they are.
    As most other things it's not religion that's the problem but individuals taking something to far; does not matter if it is religion, politics etc. which is the cause of the issue. If people wish to live according to Islam, Judaism, Zen, Catholicism, Communism etc. is ok as long as they respect my right not to. It's when they don't (see ISIS) that there's an issue but that's not due to what they believe in but their belief that they have the right to decide over me (20 years ago ISIS would be communists and I'd still have the same issue with them).

    And cute way of trying to end an argument you feel you can't win by trying to create a "disagree with me and you're stupid" feeling with this line, sadly you'll need to argue better than that.
    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The enlightened religious person, will recognize that you can't separate religion from politics and power, it's the brainwashed ones who can't see it.
    At the end of the day religion is only another set of moral rules (same way as communism or democracy are a set of moral rules how things should be done) and nothing else; if you proscribe more power to them then that's up to you but you do appear to have a bit of a chip on the shoulder on the topic.


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    #60
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Nody wrote: »
    As most other things it's not religion that's the problem but individuals taking something to far; does not matter if it is religion, politics etc. which is the cause of the issue. If people wish to live according to Islam, Judaism, Zen, Catholicism, Communism etc. is ok as long as they respect my right not to. It's when they don't (see ISIS) that there's an issue but that's not due to what they believe in but their belief that they have the right to decide over me (20 years ago ISIS would be communists and I'd still have the same issue with them).

    And cute way of trying to end an argument you feel you can't win by trying to create a "disagree with me and you're stupid" feeling with this line, sadly you'll need to argue better than that.

    At the end of the day religion is only another set of moral rules (same way as communism or democracy are a set of moral rules how things should be done) and nothing else; if you proscribe more power to them then that's up to you but you do appear to have a bit of a chip on the shoulder on the topic.


    ANd this is another problem....people can't de personalise the argument.

    Religion is a ritualised belief in the supernatural with a history of world wide conversion tactics tied into political revolutions and occupations.


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    #61
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,419 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    I don't really think this is the appropriate forum for this discussion, guys.


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