Scrap the league, says Indo hack

SectionF · 08-11-2008 9:38pm #1

David Kelly in today's Indo...

How much longer must those dwindling numbers who profess enduring faith in the league be allowed to wallow in such ignorance, when not even the FAI nor its constituent parts can impersonate normality for any decent length of time?

If you read it carefully -- it's rather tortuously phrased -- you may notice that he accuses Bohs directors of greed, dishonesty and corruption.

_blank_ · 08-11-2008 9:42pm

SectionF wrote: »

you may notice that he accuses Bohs directors of greed, dishonesty and corruption.

Greed, yes.

Dishonesty, yes.

Corruption, probably.

Still though, two out of three ain't bad, as the song goes.

You are a Bohs fan. Is your head STILL in the sand.

Do you 100% back your boards actions?

Unbelievable.

Just to add.

Scrapping the league is not on, but something drastic needs to be done about the state of it.

How much longer must those dwindling numbers who profess enduring faith in the league be allowed to wallow in such ignorance

Ignorant I certainly am not, but yes. I have found myself, over the last two seasons losing any semblence of faith in the powers that be in the league. The unrealistic expectations of clubs, players, supporters and sponsors and the FAI in all of this.

And the total head-in-sand approach of the fans of the troubled clubs, myself included up to when my club imploded.

SectionF · 08-11-2008 9:50pm

Des wrote: »

Greed, yes.

Dishonesty, yes.

Corruption, probably.

Still though, two out of three ain't bad, as the song goes.

You are a Bohs fan. Is your head STILL in the sand.

Do you 100% back your boards actions?

Unbelievable.

There are a lot of different perspectives within the club, since it's a democracy.

Still, I don't know anyone, other than David Kelly, and now you, who has expressed the opinion on the record that the directors are corrupt or 'probably' corrupt. Congratulations.

Helix · 08-11-2008 10:04pm

no league = no national team

_blank_ · 08-11-2008 10:38pm

SectionF wrote: »

There are a lot of different perspectives within the club, since it's a democracy.

Still, I don't know anyone, other than David Kelly, and now you, who has expressed the opinion on the record that the directors are corrupt or 'probably' corrupt. Congratulations.

Dodging my question?

Or perhaps you missed it.

You are a Bohs fan. Is your head STILL in the sand.

Do you 100% back your boards actions?
*************

you say your club is a "democracy", are you a member?

if so, did you back the route they took?

do you still stand by it?

HalloweenJack · 08-11-2008 11:34pm

The problem with the league is that the "big" clubs got excited when Shels came close(ish) to reaching the CL group stages.

Now, clubs think that spending big and going for broke could result in making the cash cow of the CL. So they pay players more to get them to their clubs, even though their attendances aren't going up. All the time, they're raking up bigger debts and the likelihood is if any side makes the group stages, they'll have to cover their debts first before making any real financial gains.

It's really frustrating. In hope of advancing, they're actually pushing themselves backwards. Sure look at Cork getting a spanking this year.

Add to that, weak league administrators and it's a recipe for disaster.

There needs to be an overhaul of the league approach. The clubs and the admins need to have a long hard look and cop on.

The clubs should control the wages in this league, not the players. If a player won't sign for such and such a figure, the clubs shouldn't offer him more cos, let's face it, most of the players in the league, esp. at clubs like Bray and Cobh, aren't going to get a deal over in England.

That needs to change, imo.

applehunter · 08-11-2008 11:45pm

Quote from the article

"Constructed on a base of sand, the whole crumbling edifice is slowly disintegrating. Those of us who pointed out this very fact take no pleasure in being confronted with this undeniable truth."

This quote could be applied to every professsional sport in the world. What if TV money dried up for the top leagues in the world.....

LuckyLloyd · 09-11-2008 12:55am

Helix wrote: »

no league = no national team

Can we have a national team with a part - time league that has severe wage restrictions?

_blank_ · 09-11-2008 12:56am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Can we have a national team with a part - time league that has severe wage restrictions?

Yes.

LuckyLloyd · 09-11-2008 1:01am

Des wrote: »

Yes.

Seems like the solution then huh? Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, full time professional football has been proven as an unworkable proposition in this country. The support base isn't big enough to make it work financially.

_blank_ · 09-11-2008 1:07am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Seems like the solution then huh? Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, full time professional football has been proven as an unworkable proposition in this country. The support base isn't big enough to make it work financially.

Yep.

That's the reality.

The people just aren't interested in a full time proper league in this country, for whatever reason.

Thus, in it's current state, it is unsustainable, you are correct.

by the way, I'm sickened the way UCD have gone down, and people are even calling for them to be turfed out of the league.

Fans of such well run clubs as Shels, Bohs, Cork City and Drogheda.

We might get Alan Mahon though. :pac:

LuckyLloyd · 09-11-2008 1:27am

Des wrote: »

by the way, I'm sickened the way UCD have gone down, and people are even calling for them to be turfed out of the league.

Fans of such well run clubs as Shels, Bohs, Cork City and Drogheda.

We might get Alan Mahon though. :pac:

Yep, all of that makes me a sad panda.

EDIT: Worth noting that UCD only have two professional players signed up for next season. Whatever happen on the pitch, they won't go bust off it.

John_C · 09-11-2008 1:35am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yep, all of that makes me a sad panda.

EDIT: Worth noting that UCD only have two professional players signed up for next season. Whatever happen on the pitch, they won't go bust off it.

And by professional you mean players getting any money at all rather than full time wages?

I agree that UCD was hard done by but the reality is that they were absolutely muck this year on the pitch only scoring a goal every second game.

SectionF · 09-11-2008 1:36am

Des wrote: »

Dodging my question?

Or perhaps you missed it.

You are a Bohs fan. Is your head STILL in the sand.

Do you 100% back your boards actions?
*************

you say your club is a "democracy", are you a member?

if so, did you back the route they took?

do you still stand by it?

I'm a member.
Whether I back them or not is an internal club matter, and, if you don't mind me saying so, none of your business. I have my say: it may hold sway, it may not.
Are you a member of your club?

And are you sticking by your allegations?

Ronan|Raven · 09-11-2008 2:14am

Ah the indo and David Kelly can suck my hairy testicles. A ****rag of a paper. A paper who can hardly find a league table but gets the juicy "scandal" stories.

LuckyLloyd · 09-11-2008 2:36am

John_C wrote: »

And by professional you mean players getting any money at all rather than full time wages?

I agree that UCD was hard done by but the reality is that they were absolutely muck this year on the pitch only scoring a goal every second game.

That we are competitive at all is a testament to a good club structure. I honestly don't understand why people want to kick us out of the top level entirely.

John_C · 09-11-2008 2:53am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

That we are competitive at all is a testament to a good club structure. I honestly don't understand why people want to kick us out of the top level entirely.

I think it's a kind of reverse jealousy. The same reason a lot of Premiership fans sneer at the eircom League, it hides the little bit of guilt that comes from seeing someone else stand up for what you think is right.

DmanDmythDledge · 09-11-2008 5:06pm

Des wrote: »

We might get Alan Mahon though. :pac:

Pete you surely mean, especially with Keely's contract coming to an end?

I'd say there's a very strong chance he would take the Shels job if he was offered it- he was extremely close to taking it when you were in **** creek and us after finishing in the top half of the PD.

_blank_ · 09-11-2008 5:08pm

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

Pete you surely mean, especially with Keely's contract coming to an end?

:eek:

Yes, of course.

So, who the hell is this "Alan" of whom I speak?

DmanDmythDledge wrote: »

I'd say there's a very strong chance he would take the Shels job if he was offered it- he was extremely close to taking it when you were in **** creek and us after finishing in the top half of the PD.

I know.

CantGetNoSleep · 09-11-2008 6:42pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Can we have a national team with a part - time league that has severe wage restrictions?

Or can we not have a league where the highest paid players earn €500 or so, rather than close to €3,000 like some of them earn now? Surely this is enough to live on, and as another poster said, a lot of them will not get deals in England anywhere.

I like watching live football, but spending €15 to watch some overweight, overpaid cnut lump a ball up the field hasn't appealed to me in the last few seasons, this is more than you would pay in some countries with proper leagues to watch the top teams

LuckyLloyd · 09-11-2008 7:10pm

Des wrote: »

So, who the hell is this "Alan" of whom I speak?

This guy? Take them as a package imo.

Guy:Incognito · 09-11-2008 7:11pm

Helix wrote: »

no league = no national team

So it's agreed then, we are all signing the "scrap the EL petition"?:)

CantGetNoSleep · 09-11-2008 7:20pm

Stekelly wrote: »

So it's agreed then, we are all signing the "scrap the EL petition"?:)

1. Cant Get No Sleep

John_C · 09-11-2008 7:24pm

Des wrote: »

So, who the hell is this "Alan" of whom I speak?

UCD's top goalscorer, with 2.

DSB · 12-11-2008 11:49pm

The irony of a journalist in the soccer section of an Irish newspaper suggesting scrapping the Irish national league is so extreme it is actually upsetting.

Gavin "shels" · 13-11-2008 12:07am

DSB wrote: »

The irony of a journalist in the soccer section of an Irish newspaper suggesting scrapping the Irish national league is so extreme it is actually upsetting.

Funny it probably one of the indo's first articles on the League all season. Ah the joys of the Irish media.:rolleyes:

CiaranC · 13-11-2008 12:27am

Despicable article from a despicable west-brit rag. They should stick to football on the mainland.

Clubs need to adopt the Shamrock Rovers model and be run prudently by their own fans, with stability and long-term survival the first and most important priority of each and every club.

Its time to forget about the Champions league and attracting the plastics to our clubs. They are not football fans, they are event junkies and band-wagoners.

The FAI are inept, toothless and incompetent, always have been and always will be.

Its up to us, the few tens of thousands of football fans in this country to make sure we have a future.

**** the rest.

SectionF · 13-11-2008 12:28am

Gavin shels wrote: »

Funny it probably one of the indo's first articles on the League all season. Ah the joys of the Irish media.:rolleyes:

Actually, apart from this stunt, the Indo isn't the worst. Of the native Irish dailies, it probably gives LoI the best service, and its proper eL reporters are excellent.

Normally, the villain is the I. Times, although they are too PC to actively call for an end to the league. Outside of the usually excellent Emmet Malone (ex-Dalkey United), they simply ignore it in favour of cricket... sailing... croquet... American 'football'... tiddlywinks.

Those nasty British tabloids usually provide far better coverage than any of the Irish papers, though.

Ronan|Raven · 13-11-2008 12:34am

Scrap the Indo says this boards.ie hack

DSB · 13-11-2008 1:15am

On another note, should we scrap Irish banks? Or possibly even Irish newspapers if they're badly affected by the recession? And we can all just use their English or European alternative.

Benedict XVI · 13-11-2008 10:33am

DSB wrote: »

On another note, should we scrap Irish banks?.

No, but we could merge them []opens huge can of worms[/]

CiaranC · 13-11-2008 10:44am

How many times Benedict? My club is 107 years old. We have won 15 Leagues, 24 Cups. We have lost our stadium, played at Dalymount, Tolka, RDS, Morton, Tolka again and are moving to a new Stadium in Tallaght, after 22 years of being homeless, being on the verge of extinction more than once and being taken over by fans, using their own time and money. Have you any idea what the club means to people?

We are NOT going to merge with anyone. EVER. Id rather see us play AUL or in the Irish League.

If it means small crowds and a day-to-day struggle to survive, and never reaching the Champions League so Irelands event junkies can see an English/Spanish/Italian team in Dublin, the SO BE IT.

So drop it.

Benedict XVI · 13-11-2008 10:52am

CiaranC wrote: »

Its time to forget about the Champions league and attracting the plastics to our clubs. They are not football fans, they are event junkies and band-wagoners.

This is one of the problems with the League

There is a perception that the long term fan hates newcomers and questions their loyalty from day one, as in the quote above.

Success by a club will always bring interest, some of those ‘band-wagoners’ will not hang around, but some will stay and continue to follow the club, not to the level or expectation of the long term followers but they will still follow the team.

Long term fans seem to have a problem with this, you seem only to respect people whose first experience with the team is on a cold wet night at a league cup game in Monoghan, anything else and you are plastic, on the band wagon, or a prawn sandwich.

CiaranC · 13-11-2008 10:59am

Benedict XVI wrote: »

This is one of the problems with the League

There is a perception that the long term fan hates newcomers and questions their loyalty from day one, as in the quote above.

Success by a club will always bring interest, some of those ‘band-wagoners’ will not hang around, but some will stay and continue to follow the club, not to the level or expectation of the long term followers but they will still follow the team.

Long term fans seem to have a problem with this, you seem only to respect people whose first experience with the team is on a cold wet night at a league cup game in Monoghan, anything else and you are plastic, on the band wagon, or a prawn sandwich.

Its time we realised that these imaginary fans are not coming. They havent been coming to games since the sixties, and they arent going to start now.

Realistically there are only a few tens of thousands of football fans here, thats the basis we should be budgeting for. Anything else is a pipe dream.

Id welcome any new fans along to Rovers next season, and Im sure we'll pick some up. Nothing gives me more satisfaction to hear of lads around Tallaght picking up season tickets for the first time next year, its great. But it would be a huge mistake to imagine that we are magically going to have full houses every week and to budget according to that. We need to buget for worst-case scenario at all times.

Running Bing · 13-11-2008 10:59am

Benedict XVI wrote: »

This is one of the problems with the League

There is a perception that the long term fan hates newcomers and questions their loyalty from day one, as in the quote above.

Success by a club will always bring interest, some of those ‘band-wagoners’ will not hang around, but some will stay and continue to follow the club, not to the level or expectation of the long term followers but they will still follow the team.

Long term fans seem to have a problem with this, you seem only to respect people whose first experience with the team is on a cold wet night at a league cup game in Monoghan, anything else and you are plastic, on the band wagon, or a prawn sandwich.

Great post and I said something similar in another thread.

Did you come out of the womb with a little green and white rovers jersey on Ciaran C? or did you go to a game and gradually become a bigger and bigger fan of the club?

Honestly if all LOI fans have the same attitude as you I would be very concerned for the future of the league.....in fact the indo hack might just get his way.

CiaranC · 13-11-2008 11:05am

Babybing wrote: »

Great post and I said something similar in another thread.

Did you come out of the womb with a little green and white rovers jersey on Ciaran C? or did you go to a game and gradually become a bigger and bigger fan of the club?

Honestly if all LOI fans have the same attitude as you I would be very concerned for the future of the league.....in fact the indo hack might just get his way.

Bull**** excuse #454544 why plastics dont attend football matches in their own country.

Of course I went to a game and my interest grew. I went back the next week. And the next. Thats how it happens for actual football fans the world over. Kinda like for the plastics but with real football instead of television programmes.

My attitude is irrelevant. How long are we expected to be nice to gob****e plastics in the hope that they will one day decide to support their own league? Isnt 40 years long enough?

Benedict XVI · 13-11-2008 11:09am

CiaranC wrote: »

Its time we realised that these imaginary fans are not coming. They havent been coming to games since the sixties, and they arent going to start now.

Realistically there are only a few tens of thousands of football fans here, thats the basis we should be budgeting for. Anything else is a pipe dream.

Id welcome any new fans along to Rovers next season, and Im sure we'll pick some up. Nothing gives me more satisfaction to hear of lads around Tallaght picking up season tickets for the first time next year, its great. But it would be a huge mistake to imagine that we are magically going to have full houses every week and to budget according to that. We need to buget for worst-case scenario at all times.

I hope Rovers are successful at Tallagh, they seem to be well run since their problems a few years back and best of luck to them.

I am sure they will have a full house for their first league game in Tallagh.

Some of the crowd will be first time fans, some will come back, other may not, but if attendances fall off after the first few weeks I suspect there will be long term Rovers fans on here whinging and moaning about ‘band-wagoners’, plastics, and prawn sandwiches

CiaranC · 13-11-2008 11:12am

I imagine there will. People tend to be passionate about their football clubs, as you may have noticed

bohsman · 13-11-2008 11:29am

Babybing wrote: »

Honestly if all LOI fans have the same attitude as you I would be very concerned for the future of the league.....in fact the indo hack might just get his way.

Mr Alan isnt representative of all Premiership fans, CiaranC isnt representative of all LOI fans.

stovelid · 13-11-2008 11:37am

Benedict XVI wrote: »

There is a perception that the long term fan hates newcomers and questions their loyalty from day one, as in the quote above.

As a regular match-goer, I can honestly say this is largely a perception. I can't think of a single LOI fan that wouldn't love more people to start going to matches. I also don't know a single fan that doesn't have affection for a second 'foreign' team. Sure, you are going to get purists (like you do with all leagues), but how does affect your enjoyment of the game? You are not identifiable in the stand or on the terrace as a newcomer, although you could wear a high-vis jacket with noob on if you want.

What you have to understand is that LOI fans have to hear a lot of untrue and farcical stuff about their league every minute of the day. From insinuations about how they treat noobs, to largely unfounded stereotypes about the player's fitness and ability. It's natural that some get bitter about it. Think about it from the fan's perspective.

I don't think the league will die. As much as I despise the Herag and Sindo and their trampling on the league's grave, they have a point that things have to change. The way forward short-term is obviously to go part-time, or at least field teams with an affordable mixture of full and part-timers. The problem is that one team will always think short-term and try and outspend the others. This is where - with other matters - where the F.A.I has to start offering strong management.

Also teams have to quit with the pipe-dreams of benefactors and investors, and be democratically-run, accountable member clubs.

gimmick · 13-11-2008 11:40am

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Long term fans seem to have a problem with this, you seem only to respect people whose first experience with the team is on a cold wet night at a league cup game in Monoghan, anything else and you are plastic, on the band wagon, or a prawn sandwich.

Nonsense. This is a propaganda line used by non eL fans, saying that all current eL fans will not welcome them to their ground etc. To be honest I wonuldn't care less if we have 5000 first timers for our first home game of the season in 2009, and a different 5000 first timers for the second.

I would have a problem though with the types who come through the gate for the first time and moan and whinge for the entire game about "long ball football" and "empty Stands" and "its cold". They can all feck off and not bother come back.

Everyone has to start somewhere, but they ahve to start with an open mind. People like Benedict have a pre conceived notion that the standard and facilities are so poor that going to games is beneath him (I realise you are not in an eL county)., and that they will be sneered at by the longer term fans. Such notions are silly.

SectionF · 13-11-2008 12:21pm

The vast majority of LoI fans would welcome new fans with open arms. You will find elitism in all walks of like - e.g. people who want to keep bands or books to themselves - but the people who hold such views, if they exist in eL, are pathetic and irrelevant.
I have seen the fan snobbery excuse rolled out time and time again. Frankly, I don't believe it, and I have never seen it supported by an account of actual experience. Most LoI fans probably also follow a British team, simply on the basis that it is the big league in international media. What sticks in the craw is the attitude that one should exclusively follow ManU, or whoever. (There is also a particularly sad minority group that thinks that in order to follow an authentic team, one must go to a lower English league and devote one's loyalty to Scunthorpe, or whoever.)
Incidentally, while we're scrapping things, why don't we also scrap the Irish health service, the army, and anything else we can think of that isn't as big and shiny as its counterpart on the 'mainland'. Bringing that to its logical conclusion, all we'll be left with is U2 and the GAA.

stovelid · 13-11-2008 12:43pm

I should add that it's safe to say that people who are the most scathing about the attitude of LOI fans/**** grounds/**** football/ are probably never going to support the league. Saying this doesn't mean they are not wanted at games however, it's just acknowledging the truth.

I note that people are not overly worried about they will be perceived by EPL fans when the visit Anfield, Stamford Bridge or Old Trafford, when, if anything, you are more likely to be viewed with amusement.

gimmick · 13-11-2008 1:12pm

I know at this stage Irish Liverpool fans are actually viewed with disdain around Anfield. Basically day trippers.

SectionF · 13-11-2008 1:19pm

gimmick wrote: »

I know at this stage Irish Liverpool fans are actually viewed with disdain around Anfield. Basically day trippers.

Surely a large proportion of people at any top 4 home game are day trippers, Irish and otherwise.

noodler · 13-11-2008 1:31pm

Ditto. Thats just cheap line to try and degenerate Irish Pool fans.

gimmick · 13-11-2008 1:36pm

No, its not. I am speaking as someone who knows a few people who live there, so I can use that frame of reference. I cannot however say the same for anyone else as I do not have the same frame of reference.

Surely a large proportion of people at any top 4 home game are day trippers, Irish and otherwise.

Season ticket holders?

noodler · 13-11-2008 1:38pm

Its too subjective. How many people expressed this opinion to you?

Out of the 45,000 fans who would be at Anfield at any given game?

bohsman · 13-11-2008 1:47pm

And how many loi fans have given half the opinions theyre accused of having here?

stovelid · 13-11-2008 1:59pm

noodler wrote: »

Its too subjective. How many people expressed this opinion to you? Out of the 45,000 fans who would be at Anfield at any given game?

This is off topic really. I'm from Manchester originally and any of my friends and family (a mostly first generation Irish, Citeh/ MU mix), would view the foreign fans with (usually benign) bemusement. The thing about Irish fans is that they think they are somehow viewed differently than fans from places like Asia, but they actually are not. Obviously, who knows what proportion of crowds are Irish. You can bet it's surely by far the biggest of the non-local crowd though.

Even more bizarrely, you get Irish fans saying stuff like Manu fans are all from Surrey.

Anyway, I only mentioned it to make the point that people who are afraid of looking like noobs at LOI, don't mind heading to England. I wasn't singling out a particular club. A lot of LOI fans, including me, head over to England for games too.

iregk · 13-11-2008 2:26pm

The hillarious thing I find from all of this is people being afraid of going to LOI game because they are "unwelcome" or noobs etc... yet you ask a lot of Irish Premiership fans and they will tell you they have never been in Anfield, Old Trafford or Stamford Bridge etc...

If your afraid to go to Tallaght Stadium lets say why wouldn't you be afraid to go to Stamford Bridge? If anything the Londoners will think less of you going there than the Rovers fans will going to TS.

Me personally I've been to more Rovers games than I've had hot dinners. I already have my season ticket for next season and yes I would love to see half the stadium consisting of first timers. For every 5 that come we may get 1 or 2 that stay and realise the beauty and satisfaction of spending your hard earned money on football at home and in your heart rather than a souless organisation thats more interested in a pre season Asian tour as its a huge potential market!

p.s. I also agree with another poster. Lets setup a scrap the Indo petition

Scrap the league, says Indo hack

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