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Islamic forum doesn't allow critics at all?

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    #62
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Taltos wrote: »

    Either way this thread has been really useful if only in bringing the challenges and poison being faced by those of the Faith here on Boards. And yes, if this fails and we don't create the safe place then naturally the Islam forum will be closed, but not before we try our best to create a forum relatively free of the dim-witted haters from both sides.

    I'm not sure how you see any poison in this thread, its been reasoned and adult in its nature.

    A question, why did you refer to Islam as "the Faith"? Its the use of a definitive article if my school grammar was correct. It says its the only faith when used with a capital letter,which it was.

    Do you see it as The Faith and in that regard are biased against other religions?
    If seeing Islam as the faith is the modus operandii of the forum then it gives it a status the other religious forums dont have, apart from its protected forum status.


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    #63
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Criticism, discussion and analysis of Islam is a super tense topic. So it's only logical that a forum who's entire purpose is to create a cordial friendly atmosphere for discussion on Islam isn't exactly going have to an easy time. The biggest problem as far as I can see isn't the mods. It's the community itself. The majority of posters tend to be influxes with their minds made up on what Islam is - and isn't - and they just want to post how much they disagree with that religion. The second most frequent posters then are those who are obviously Muslim but do not appear to be versed in how to have a constructive discussion. When you put those two clashing again and again in various threads over various similar issues fireworks are going to result. How exactly does one even mod that? Cleaning house seems to be the only way. Unfortunately doing so will temporary kill the community and the appetite for anyone reading there to have a discussion. Catch 22 though, if you don't do it, there'll be no appetite to read the forum anyway.

    I'd like to believe that criticism of Islam is welcome there, but these past few months the forum has just been overwhelmed with trolls going there with no intention of a discussion. Sadly the only way of quelling the extreme sides is going to result in the watering down of nearly any form of discussion in the interim. Just hope it doesn't last. Unfortunately with the crap groups like ISIS are at, that may be a long hope.


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    #64
    Custardpi
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Custardpi


    That's a pity Turtwig & you raise some good points as to the problems involved with discussion of this topic. I think criticism of Islam is necessary not just because of people's very real concerns about the ideology but for the sake of the Muslim community itself. Societies & cultures benefit from robust discussions, which very often involve hearing uncomfortable opinions & facts (that goes both ways of course). Mainstream Irish society has certainly moved a long way from where it was a few decades ago, in large part due to people being prepared to talk about awkward issues.

    There is a tendency among some posters to try & smear anyone whose line on Islam strays away from the "Why is Islam so great/why are Muslims so persecuted by the mean West?" territory as being bigoted. Several of them tried to get the thread surrounding the Paris attacks shut down, arrogantly arguing that there was no point in discussing it since posters weren't educated enough i.e. they didn't agree with the "correct" point of view. This was resisted by moderators, who really deserve massive credit for that.

    I'd like to think that that willingness to allow rigorous discussions on the issues surrounding Islam will help important debates to take place. How you balance that out with the quite understandable feelings of being under siege that many in & close to the Muslim community no doubt feel I'm not sure but I do get the impression that there is a desire to try among if not all then a good few mods, which again you deserve credit for.


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    #65
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Criticism, discussion and analysis of Islam is a super tense topic. So it's only logical that a forum who's entire purpose is to create a cordial friendly atmosphere for discussion on Islam isn't exactly going have to an easy time. The biggest problem as far as I can see isn't the mods. It's the community itself. The majority of posters tend to be influxes with their minds made up on what Islam is - and isn't - and they just want to post how much they disagree with that religion. The second most frequent posters then are those who are obviously Muslim but do not appear to be versed in how to have a constructive discussion. When you put those two clashing again and again in various threads over various similar issues fireworks are going to result. How exactly does one even mod that? Cleaning house seems to be the only way. Unfortunately doing so will temporary kill the community and the appetite for anyone reading there to have a discussion. Catch 22 though, if you don't do it, there'll be no appetite to read the forum anyway.

    I'd like to believe that criticism of Islam is welcome there, but these past few months the forum has just been overwhelmed with trolls going there with no intention of a discussion. Sadly the only way of quelling the extreme sides is going to result in the watering down of nearly any form of discussion in the interim. Just hope it doesn't last. Unfortunately with the crap groups like ISIS are at, that may be a long hope.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

    While the link above is about Islamic State and how it adopts the most puritanical approach to Islamlic texts from the time of Mohammed, and the Quran, and overwhelming tenet to the article is that Muslims are not allowed to criticise the Quran, but rather are required to live by it's teachings, as to do otherwise is to imply that the Quran is not perfect.

    That would fit with responses from Muslims that I've seen that resort to quoting the Quran to justify their argument, without any major critical thinking being applied, and imo would also be a significant difference to Christianity e.g. in terms of individual right to question the tenets of faith, which imo would be an explanation as to why the Christianity forum operates differently from the Islam forum.

    And given that a good half hour of my time went into reading the article I've linked above, and how diverse it is from how we as for the most part Westerners are used to thinking/debating, it's understandable that it can cause some conflicts in terms of how the forum operates.

    I think there may be merit in the mods of the forum reading through the article and using the underpinning core tenets of it in relation to criticism to structure a forum that clearly calls out that non Islamic posters should not expect Muslims to defend the Quran given how questioning of the Quran can be interpreted in Islam.


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    #66
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I've always been of the position that a religion can be anything from good to evil. It's a set of ideas. No one group or authority get's to state what a religion is or isn't - and I appreciate that remark may indeed upset members of various denominations. I think taking ISIS's own interpretations of Qu'ran to mean what Islam means and using that as a guide for setting a forum charter would be a grave misjudgement. Islam, like Christianity, is a very broad spectrum with some over lapping themes.


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    #67
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Turtwig wrote: »
    I've always been of the position that a religion can be anything from good to evil. It's a set of ideas. No one group or authority get's to state what a religion is or isn't - and I appreciate that remark may indeed upset members of various denominations. I think taking ISIS's own interpretations of Qu'ran to mean what Islam means and using that as a guide for setting a forum charter would be a grave misjudgement. Islam, like Christianity, is a very broad spectrum with some over lapping themes.

    THat's not what I'm saying at all, what I'm saying is that a core tenet of being a Sunni Muslim is not to criticise the Quran, and accept that it is the way that one should live as a Muslim.

    If that's the case then it's easy then to understand how in the Islam forum, you get people who are not Muslim and have grown up in an atmosphere that allows debate in relation to the rules of religion/certain laxity around adhering to rules of religion question why there is no such equivalent in Islam

    I was reading an interesting article recently about Muslims who were homosexual and how they coped, and dealt with it, and for the most part, they accepted that they had the choice to choose their sexuality or their religion, if I get time I'll link it, but in Islam it's much more black and white than Christians for example would be used to in terms of adapting to modern day society.

    Hasidim is the closest I can think of in terms of the rigidity of Islam, but even Hasidism has governance in place to allow for adaptation of ancient laws to modern life so it's less restrictive.


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    #68
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Actually, and I think someone else posted on this, but I'm wondering if a "what is Islam and how do the different groups in Islam view Islam" would be a good sticky for the charter.

    You could explain Sunni vs Shia, the history behind it, link the militant groups for both then go into what I call Wahhabism but was corrected on recently, and give people a quick guide to it all.

    I know Muslims who are both Shia and Sunni and their outlook on certain areas is radically different.

    Any thoughts on having a sticky like the above?


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    #69
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    There seems to be awful assumptions being made in religion to what a Muslim actually believes when they identify as a certain type of Muslim,

    People are not made all the same from some cookie cutter, what I mean by this is just because somebody identify as something doesn't mean they agree with all aspects of it.

    Case in point, take Catholics in Ireland. 82% or so of people in Ireland identify as Catholic in Ireland. But that sure as hell doesn't mean people agree with the Catholic Church on a vast array of topics.

    Take something really important to the Vatican like transubstansation (the whole body/bread thing), you'd be hard pressed to find loads of people chosen at random from this 82% that actually agree with the Vaticans view that you are actually eating the body of Jesus at communion.

    Regardless, to an outsider looking at stats the could be forgiven for believing that people do actually believe such things. Especially as its an important part of the Catholic faith and the people identify as Catholic so to an outsider it wouldn't make much sense that they wouldn't believe in such important parts... Otherwise why call yourself Catholic?

    People seem obsessed with trying to say that Muslims are either black or white, good or bad but all alone people forget that like everyone else they are human and that means there are about 5000 shades of grey when it comes to them... Just like there is with Catholics.

    You can be sure as hell that many Muslims don't agree with parts of holy texts or with what religious leaders state either, just because they don't constantly discuss doesn't mean it's not the case.

    Sometimes people identify as something for social or society reason, social pressures or just because they were told they are by such a thing by their parents,


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    #70
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    Cabaal, you are attributing Christian mores to Muslims.

    I don't know how many times it needs to be pointed out that for Sunni Muslims especially it is a tenet of the faith that the Koran is not questioned. It is what it is, you live your life by it if you want to be a good Muslim. There is no room for "a la carte" Islamicity, you become apostate if you engage in such practices.

    Christians don't have that issue, Christians are allowed to question, modify. No wait, what I should say there is that Christians are not specifically barred by their holy book from questioning - Muslims ARE.


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    #71
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Cabaal wrote: »
    There seems to be awful assumptions being made in religion to what a Muslim actually believes when they identify as a certain type of Muslim,

    People are not made all the same from some cookie cutter, what I mean by this is just because somebody identify as something doesn't mean they agree with all aspects of it.

    Case in point, take Catholics in Ireland. 82% or so of people in Ireland identify as Catholic in Ireland. But that sure as hell doesn't mean people agree with the Catholic Church on a vast array of topics.

    Take something really important to the Vatican like transubstansation (the whole body/bread thing), you'd be hard pressed to find loads of people chosen at random from this 82% that actually agree with the Vaticans view that you are actually eating the body of Jesus at communion.

    Regardless, to an outsider looking at stats the could be forgiven for believing that people do actually believe such things. Especially as its an important part of the Catholic faith and the people identify as Catholic so to an outsider it wouldn't make much sense that they wouldn't believe in such important parts... Otherwise why call yourself Catholic?

    People seem obsessed with trying to say that Muslims are either black or white, good or bad but all alone people forget that like everyone else they are human and that means there are about 5000 shades of grey when it comes to them... Just like there is with Catholics.

    You can be sure as hell that many Muslims don't agree with parts of holy texts or with what religious leaders state either, just because they don't constantly discuss doesn't mean it's not the case.

    Sometimes people identify as something for social or society reason, social pressures or just because they were told they are by such a thing by their parents,

    You are applying Judeo Christian perspectives here.

    The Koran is direct speech.

    The Bible is reported speech.

    The Torah is enshrined debate.

    Without a philosophy of multiple interpretability, you have fundamentalism.

    Vatican 1 ers would be an example of fundamentalism, it's just that their fundamentalism {now} does not include expansionist conversions.

    Take a fundamentalist Quaker and measure against a fundamentalist Muslim.... and then tell me it has nothing to do with the religion.


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    #72
    Walter Bishop
    Registered Users Posts: 557 ✭✭✭Walter Bishop


    There's a thread locked in After Hours called 'Should we be critical of Islam?, in the locking post the mod stated that there is an Islam forum and the thread might be better suited there. Of course it wouldn't be, because it would be closed instantly there too.

    So shouldn't the 'no criticism of Islam' thing just be extended to all forums to save wasting people's time?


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    #73
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    Boards need to be careful, critics of Islam typically have a target, salmam Rustie had one for writing a book


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    #74
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    Boards need to be careful, critics of Islam typically have a target, salmam Rustie had one for writing a book

    Can't go around being afraid of these savages, that means they've won.


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    #75
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    You are applying Judeo Christian perspectives here.

    Actually I'm applying a human viewpoint to the issue, I'm merely using Catholics as an example as its what most people have experience with.

    You are instead deciding to label all people as exactly the same if they say they are for example Sunni Muslim. All people are not the same, all people do not conform the same as such its very possible you can have a self identified Sunni Muslim but that doesn't not correspondent to your specific label.

    Now of course if other Sunni Muslims knew this they wouldn't classify the person as a Sunni Muslim at all, but that doesn't stop that person self identifying as a Sunni Muslim.

    Anyway, this is side tracking the topic.

    I started this thread to query can something be sorted out to encourage discussion in the forum, its extremely important that this occurs for both sides as it can be educational to both non Muslims and Muslims to get insight into each other views.

    The current situation allows next to zero discussion and this isn't really good for anyone, it also defeats the purpose of a discussion forum and it ignores the real world around us.


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    #76
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Actually I'm applying a human viewpoint to the issue, I'm merely using Catholics as an example as its what most people have experience with.

    You are instead deciding to label all people as exactly the same if they say they are for example Sunni Muslim. All people are not the same, all people do not conform the same as such its very possible you can have a self identified Sunni Muslim but that doesn't not correspondent to your specific label.

    Now of course if other Sunni Muslims knew this they wouldn't classify the person as a Sunni Muslim at all, but that doesn't stop that person self identifying as a Sunni Muslim.

    Anyway, this is side tracking the topic.

    I started this thread to query can something be sorted out to encourage discussion in the forum, its extremely important that this occurs for both sides as it can be educational to both non Muslims and Muslims to get insight into each other views.

    The current situation allows next to zero discussion and this isn't really good for anyone, it also defeats the purpose of a discussion forum and it ignores the real world around us.

    The fora are for proslytising, not for genuine discussion or dissent from a false consensus.

    Isn't this what Humanties is for?


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    #77
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The fora are for proslytising, not for genuine discussion or dissent from a false consensus.

    No they absolutely are not. Direct attempts to convert someone to a religion without any meaningful form or debate or discussion are against the fora charters.

    There is an idiom about tarring all people with the same brush, it is the height of arrogance to suggest that anyone can tell what every individual muslim will or will not believe.


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    #78
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Turtwig wrote: »
    No they absolutely are not. Direct attempts to convert someone to a religion without any meaningful form or debate or discussion are against the fora charters.

    There is an idiom about tarring all people with the same brush, it is the height of arrogance to suggest that anyone can tell what every individual muslim will or will not believe.

    Except then you have a problem because if you don't moderate well then you create false consensus.

    Even AH, with various prohibitions on the transgender issues has tried to create false consensus with controls over pro noun usage.

    And then guess what happens YOU create an impression that yes everyone is the same.

    So if you don't want to create that impression, then you need to allow dissent, criticism, and debate.

    ANd honestly, so what if it's arrogant? Is arrogance now forbidden on boards also? My you guys are getting fussy.

    And by the way directly from the charter: The charter itself makes a sweeping generalisation, tarring them with the special snowflake brush. Make up your mind.

    Muslims are particularly offended by insulting remarks about God (Allah), Muhammad (the Prophet of Islam), his family and early followers, and other prophets.


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    #79
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I'd change that to Muslims may be offended by. . .not my call though.


    Dissenting opinions can be expressed without being bigoted. Very often people confuse the two. An opinion they disagree with is bigotry, or an opinion they have is bigoted and they don't just realise it.

    It sounds like you have a bigger beef. I'm not here to discuss transgender issues in after hours.


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    #80
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Turtwig wrote: »
    I'd change that to Muslims may be offended by. . .not my call though.


    Dissenting opinions can be expressed without being bigoted. Very often people confuse the two. An opinion they disagree with is bigotry, or an opinion they have is bigoted and they don't just realise it.

    It sounds like you have a bigger beef. I'm not here to discuss transgender issues in after hours.

    It's only bigotry when its a dissenting opinion with a group that is not dominant.

    I don't really understand what the "Muslims may be offended by"...how that changes anything... you don't want generalisations yet you want to paint them as hypersensitive anti-intellectuals who need special treatment-via a generalisation.. and then you are surprised and disapproving when others do the same?

    Makes no sense.


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    #81
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    The fora are for proslytising, not for genuine discussion or dissent from a false consensus.

    Except its not for proslytising,

    I refer you to the forum charter
    The following are not allowed.

    Proselytizing (ie. Attempting to convert someone to a particular religion, sect or non-religion).

    Anything else constructive you want to add or do you want to go off on a tangent about after hours and transgenders again or perhaps just continue your bias towards not liking Muslims and deciding to tar them all with the same brush?

    I'd be thankful if you don't derail this thread with such bias as it isn't helpful and constructive. I started this thread as feedback in relation to how things can be changed in the forum, not for posters to tar Muslims as all the same when they are evidently not.


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    #82
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Except its not for proslytising,

    I refer you to the forum charter



    Anything else constructive you want to add or do you want to go off on a tangent about after hours and transgenders again or perhaps just continue your bias towards not liking Muslims and deciding to tar them all with the same brush?

    I'd be thankful if you don't derail this thread with such bias as it isn't helpful and constructive. I started this thread as feedback in relation to how things can be changed in the forum, not for posters to tar Muslims as all the same when they are evidently not.

    I refer you back to your own charter where it states that Muslims are particularly sensitive to comments about Mohammad and God.

    And it is not a tangent, it is contextualing what has become an across the board anti-intellectualism.


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    #83
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,468 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    I refer you back to your own charter where it states that Muslims are particularly sensitive to comments about Mohammad and God.

    My charter? I don't mod the forum and I'm not a Muslim by any crazy stretch of the imagination :pac:

    The charter is simply asking people to be a little respectful thats all, its sort of like creating a thread in the Cycling forum and commenting about how idiotic cyclists are and they should pay "road tax"...such a idiotic post will likely get you banned if you keep at it.

    If I posted in the christian forum about how stupid it was that people believed in a sky fairy that I'd expect to be told off by a mod, but not being able to say this in the forum doesn't stop me posting in the forum by any stretch.

    If I really really want to use the term sky fairy I can of course do so elsewhere on boards...for example the atheist forum etc.
    And it is not a tangent, it is contextualing what has become an across the board anti-intellectualism.

    No, its a tangent, trans gender has nothing to do with this topic.


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    #84
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Turtwig wrote: »
    No they absolutely are not. Direct attempts to convert someone to a religion without any meaningful form or debate or discussion are against the fora charters

    A direct attempt to convert a person was made and went unchallenged by the mods here

    http://http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057417548

    The boards.ie in general and the moderators of the Islamic forum in particular are failing badly in their duties are when they allow a confused, vulnerable woman be targeted by a violently misogynistic ideology.


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    #85
    Tom Dunne
    Registered Users Posts: 23,212 ✭✭✭✭Tom Dunne


    DeadHand wrote: »
    A direct attempt to convert a person was made and went unchallenged by the mods here

    http://http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057417548

    The boards.ie in general and the moderators of the Islamic forum in particular are failing badly in their duties are when they allow a confused, vulnerable woman be targeted by a violently misogynistic ideology.

    A number of questions for you:

    1: Why did you resurrect this thread to get a dig in at me personally? What exactly are you adding to the debate other than to slate me?

    2: Do you have the full facts at hand? Can you see the reported posts? Can you see the deleted posts? Can you see the PMs between me and the poster?

    3: What experience do you have of Islam, aside from what you read in the Daily Star? Have you ever met a Muslim? Have you ever been to a Muslim country (aside from a stopover in Dubai, of course).


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    #86
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,727 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Tom Dunne wrote: »
    A number of questions for you:

    1: Why did you resurrect this thread to get a dig in at me personally? What exactly are you adding to the debate other than to slate me?

    2: Do you have the full facts at hand? Can you see the reported posts? Can you see the deleted posts? Can you see the PMs between me and the poster?

    3: What experience do you have of Islam, aside from what you read in the Daily Star? Have you ever met a Muslim? Have you ever been to a Muslim country (aside from a stopover in Dubai, of course).

    Not sure why you're getting personal about it.

    A statement was made on this thread that attempts at conversion are not tolerated in any religious forum which was what I was responding to. I produced a clear example of an attempted conversion that was particularly troubling considering the vulnerability of the poster and the nature of the religion involved.

    She was being preyed on, basically, and it was allowed to happen.

    The rest of your frothing is irrelevant.


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