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Proof God Exists?

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245

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    #32
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Proof of one's own existence: "I think therefore I am".

    No God there.


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    #33
    Fremen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    Hey Ladies! Well, here I am, delusional, and self decpetive ol' me

    Thanks for posting the link to my site (it showed up on my traffic log). I'll try to pop in here once in a while to see if anyone wishes to post a refutation, but so far all I have seen is venting.

    Cheers,

    Sye

    Well as I pointed out earlier, even if you accept all the propositions about absolute truth, morality, and so on, your conclusion still begs the question. See my post above.
    Sean_K wrote: »
    No god involved.

    Well, his logic is that proofs THEMSELVES can't exist, because without god, there can be no absolute truth. You can't use that proposition to infer the existence of god, because your reasoning goes in a circle if you try.


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    #34
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    Well.... by way of proof by contradiction, the pythagorean theorem:No god involved.

    How do you know that proof by contradiction is valid? Why can contradictions not be 'true' according to your worldview?

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #35
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Fremen wrote: »
    You can't use that proposition to infer the existence of god, because your reasoning goes in a circle if you try.

    You see your dilemma here? You assume an absolute by telling me what I absolutely cannot do. To what standard of logic are you holding my argument to, how do you account for that standard, and why does that standard apply to my argument?

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #36
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    @Sye:
    You haven't actually demonstrated that proof of anything is impossible without god. You simply assert that:

    "Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist"

    This is a premise.

    Come back when you have a proof for your premise. (Hint: you have some way to go since you haven't even proved that universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist yet - especially moral ones, let alone that they depend on god.)


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    #37
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    how do you account for that standard...?
    I don't know and he doesn't know.

    You don't know either, you just assume it's "God".

    And what is "God" anyway? Please define "God" for me.


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    #38
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    rockbeer wrote: »
    @Sye:
    You haven't actually demonstrated that proof of anything is impossible without god. You simply assert that:
    "Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist"

    And I state that it is proven by the impossibility of the contrary. In logic, it is what is known as a 'transcendental argument.' Simply posit your logical contrary, and we'll go from there. (And no, I'm not holding my breath :-)

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #39
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    ptge wrote: »
    And I state that it is proven by the impossibility of the contrary. In logic, it is what is known as a 'transcendental argument.' Simply posit your logical contrary, and we'll go from there.
    Wait...so...are you going to prove that the contrary is impossible or just hope it is?


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    #40
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    And I state that it is proven by the impossibility of the contrary.
    How do you know that proof by contradiction is valid? You can't say that it is valid because there exists an absolute truth, and then use that premise to prove that an absolute truth exists. That's circular logic.

    So without firstly assuming that an absolute truth exists, prove an absolute truth exists.


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    #41
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    Wait...so...are you going to prove that the contrary is impossible or just hope it is?

    Nope, you are all proving it for me :D


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    #42
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    How do you know that proof by contradiction is valid? You can't say that it is valid because there exists an absolute truth, and then use that premise to prove that an absolute truth exists. That's circular logic.

    Hey don't get too far ahead :-) I simply asked why circular logic is not allowed according to your worldview?

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #43
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    To which branch of logic do you subscribe exactly?:pac:


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    #44
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    To which branch of logic do you subscribe exactly?:pac:

    The branch where contradictions in reasoning are invalid ;-)


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    #45
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    Hey don't get too far ahead :-) I simply asked why circular logic is not allowed according to your worldview?
    The computer you're typing on, cars, trains and any technology ever invented has been developed using definite laws of logic and mathematics.

    Why are these laws assumed to be true? Because they work. They might not be 100% true, and often are revised and changed as experiments show them to be innaccurate, but they work and help us to develop technologies. I don't believe any of these laws to be 100% true, but I accept that they are quite accurate and work when we try to develop things. Circular logic does not work.

    Where God comes into it I don't know. It goes back to my other question: "What is God?".


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    #46
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    The computer you're typing on, cars, trains and any technology ever invented has been developed using definite laws of logic and mathematics.

    How do you know? You are assuming the validity of your senses, your reasoning, your memory and those laws in order to come to this conclusion.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Why are these laws assumed to be true? Because they work.

    This is questiong begging. Work to what end?
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Circular logic does not work.

    Again, question begging. How do you know it does not work?
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Where God comes into it I don't know. It goes back to my other question: "What is God?".

    I answer that on the website.

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #47
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    ptge wrote: »
    This is questiong begging. Work to what end?

    Yes it's all a conspiracy against god


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    #48
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    Yes it's all a conspiracy against god

    Is that the best you can do? Usually people put up more of a fight before they bow out. Let me refresh your memory, in post 34 from the previous page I asked: "How do you know that proof by contradiction is valid? Why can contradictions not be 'true' according to your worldview?"

    Well?

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #49
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    How do you know? You are assuming the validity of your senses, your reasoning, your memory and those laws in order to come to this conclusion.
    Cognito, Ergo Sum.

    In truth, I know nothing exists besides myself, my senses and my reasoning.
    ptge wrote: »
    I answer that on the website.
    Link?


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    #50
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    ptge wrote: »
    ...
    Apologies if I'm wrong now but
    troll.jpg

    Are you ripping the proverbial?


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    #51
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Cognito, Ergo Sum.

    In truth, I know nothing exists besides myself, my senses and my reasoning.

    Actually it was an atheist philosopher, Bertrand Russel, who discredited Descarte's statement. Self, senses, and reasoning don't even enter into the equation, all Decartes could ever hope to posit is 'I think, therefore somewhere in the universe there is thinking going on.'


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    #52
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Link?

    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php#some-characteristics


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    #53
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    Apologies if I'm wrong now but
    Are you ripping the proverbial?

    Yawn. This gets so tiresome. I pose questions that you cannot answer and the troll accusation comes out. Typical.


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    #54
    Karlusss
    Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Karlusss


    Here's my experience:

    "Absolute truth does not exist"
    "Absolutely true"

    Then it redirects you back to the question about whether absolute truth exists or not. Wouldn't trust the logic behind that too much.


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    #55
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    .


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    #56
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Karlusss wrote: »
    Here's my experience:

    "Absolute truth does not exist"
    "Absolutely true"

    Then it redirects you back to the question about whether absolute truth exists or not. Wouldn't trust the logic behind that too much.

    Saying "Absolute truth does not exist," is making an absolute truth claim and is therefore self-refuting, that is why you are directed back to the original question.


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    #57
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/main.php#some-characteristics
    How do you know about all these characteristics of God?


    Actually, I'm going to break this up into 3 seperate sections:

    1. What is a God and how do you know this for sure?
    2. Assuming God has been defined, why does it exist, how do you know for sure?
    3. Assuming a God exists, how do you know it's a Christian God?


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    #58
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    Sean_K wrote: »
    So how long have you been on boards then? New account is it? Have I ever made a troll accusation before?

    Been on boards since the website has been up (almost 2 years). Been banned from 4 or 5 atheist boards that posted the link, for being 'too stupid,' or being a 'troll.' It's always the same though, people say that the website is bunk, but when they are challenged to support their claims, start making unfounded accusations (like you did).

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #59
    ptge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 45 ✭ptge


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    How do you know about all these characteristics of God?

    Same answer to all your questions: By His revelation. Now, how about addressing my questions?

    Cheers,

    Sye


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    #60
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    ptge wrote: »
    Same answer to all your questions: By His revelation.
    How do you know this revelation is true?


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    #61
    enfant terrible
    Registered Users Posts: 4,560 ✭✭✭enfant terrible


    ptge wrote: »
    Been on boards since the website has been up (almost 2 years). Been banned from 4 or 5 atheist boards that posted the link, for being 'too stupid,' or being a 'troll.' It's always the same though, people say that the website is bunk, but when they are challenged to support their claims, start making unfounded accusations (like you did).

    Cheers,

    Sye

    Hi ptge,
    Are there any forums where you debate these things without been banned or censored?
    I would like to read a proper discussion.


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