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Why doesn't God just kill Satan

2

Comments

  • #32
    donutface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭donutface


    Genesis 2:16: And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die".

    Seems like plenty of warning to me not to be eating from a tree, regardless of how trusting they might have been. Eve herself knew she must not eat from that tree as she told the serpant exactly that!

    Why doesnt God kill Satan? God is never going to kill Satan, in revelations it says he will be thrown in a lake of burning sulphur. Just like if I murder your parents or children, I wont immediately be sentenced to life imprisonment, judgement has to happen first. Judgement day hasnt happened yet, when it does I'm sure Satan wont be getting away without punishment.

    If you look at the amount of non-christians in the world, whenever judgement day does happen, every non christian will be complaining that they werent given enough time to seek Jesus, and to just judge Satan and not every other human being on earth that did something wrong would simply be unfair dont you think?


  • #33
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    donutface wrote: »
    Genesis 2:16: And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die".

    Seems like plenty of warning to me not to be eating from a tree, regardless of how trusting they might have been. Eve herself knew she must not eat from that tree as she told the serpant exactly that!
    But she didn't know right from wrong because god didn't want them to know there was such a thing as wrong.

    Secondly, The Serpent was right, he told her that god was lying and they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit (and they didn't.... well, not immediately anyway) If the fruit had killed eve immediately, then adam wouldn't have eaten it, and we wouldn't have original sin.

    Anyway, the whole story is completely ridiculous and barely worth thinking about.
    Why doesnt God kill Satan? God is never going to kill Satan, in revelations it says he will be thrown in a lake of burning sulphur. Just like if I murder your parents or children, I wont immediately be sentenced to life imprisonment, judgement has to happen first. Judgement day hasnt happened yet, when it does I'm sure Satan wont be getting away without punishment.
    If you kill your parents you will be kept in police custody until the end of the trial so you can't harm other people. God appears to have let the most evil being in creation run amock to do as much evil as he likes and destroy billions of souls for all eternity. (and by most accounts, there will be many more souls in hell than in heaven, does this mean satan is winning?)
    If you look at the amount of non-christians in the world, whenever judgement day does happen, every non christian will be complaining that they werent given enough time to seek Jesus, and to just judge Satan and not every other human being on earth that did something wrong would simply be unfair dont you think?
    Satan knew that god existed for a fact and he chose to lead a rebellion against him. He is on a far different league to non believer humans who are expected to accept god on faith even though there is (allegedly) an active demon constantly trying to instill doubt and turn people away from god.

    Satan is guilty of the highest form of treason imaginable. He is the ultimate insurgent. Atheists and believers of different faiths are the equivalent of non voters, and supporters of a political opposition movement.


  • #34
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    donutface wrote: »
    If you look at the amount of non-christians in the world, whenever judgement day does happen, every non christian will be complaining that they werent given enough time to seek Jesus, and to just judge Satan and not every other human being on earth that did something wrong would simply be unfair dont you think?

    Is it not more unfair to allow Satan to run amok when God already knows how he will be judged?


  • #35
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Akrasia wrote: »
    But she didn't know right from wrong because god didn't want them to know there was such a thing as wrong.
    No, the Bible does not say that God didn't want them to know there was such a thing as wrong. He wanted them to know it was wrong to disobey Him, and if they did wrong then there would be consequences.
    Secondly, The Serpent was right, he told her that god was lying and they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit (and they didn't.... well, not immediately anyway) If the fruit had killed eve immediately, then adam wouldn't have eaten it, and we wouldn't have original sin.
    They began to die the moment they ate the fruit. And, unless you think they are still alive and hiding in a special chamber in the Vatican somewhere along with all the secret Gospels, they did die.


  • #36
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    They began to die the moment they ate the fruit. And, unless you think they are still alive and hiding in a special chamber in the Vatican somewhere along with all the secret Gospels, they did die.

    What was the purpose of the tree of life if Adam and Eve were immortal?

    Genesis 3
    22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    Would that passage not imply that Adam and Eve were never immortal, and the eating of the Tree of Life that sustained them and it was the banishing from the garden that lead to a natural death because they had no longer access to this?


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  • #37
    Pompey Magnus
    Registered Users Posts: 5,406 ✭✭✭Pompey Magnus


    PDN wrote: »
    unless you think they are still alive and hiding in a special chamber in the Vatican somewhere along with all the secret Gospels

    I smell a potential Dan Brown storyline there.


  • #38
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Wicknight wrote: »
    What was the purpose of the tree of life if Adam and Eve were immortal?

    Genesis 3
    22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

    Would that passage not imply that Adam and Eve were never immortal, and the eating of the Tree of Life that sustained them and it was the banishing from the garden that lead to a natural death because they had no longer access to this?
    +1


  • #39
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    PDN wrote: »
    And, unless you think they are still alive and hiding in a special chamber in the Vatican somewhere along with all the secret Gospels, they did die.
    No I think they never existed at all, the garden of eden was a made up story to try and scare people into believing in god.

    God cast them out of the garden of eden and did some silly things to prevent them from getting back in (cherub guards and a fiery sword thing) What was the point in keeping the garden if the people he made it for weren't allowed into it. For the pleasure of the unicorns? To torment adam and eve?

    Why did he eventually decide to destroy it in the flood? (there were no evil corrupt people in the garden, why did he maintain it for thousands of years and then destroy it?)


  • #40
    donutface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭donutface


    if you continue taking heroine you will surely die. God never said they'd die immediately but he still stuck by his word.

    There are plenty of murderers out there that arent immediately held into custody. If Satan is thrown into custody as soon as he's done something wrong, im pretty sure the rest of us would have to go along the same lines and that would mean that theres no free will. Satan is still being given the chance to stop what he's doing on his own accord, and the fact that he wont would make the judgement even more fair.


    It wasnt just the garden that got destroyed either, it was the entire planet. Who said he maintained it? Wasnt Adam given that job in the first place?

    Silly in your opinion, symbolic in mine. What he did was effective, if it was silly surely they'd be able to get back in ;) If you were to start a night club and for some reason close it down so no ones allowed back in, if the buildings still standing and not costing you a cent why destroy it?


  • #41
    Akrasia
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,597 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    donutface wrote: »
    if you continue taking heroine you will surely die. God never said they'd die immediately but he still stuck by his word.
    they didn't die because the apple killed them, they died because God decided to remove their immortality.

    Its a bit like if the government decide to ban apples and impose a death sentence on anyone found eating one. If they eat an apple, they will die, but its not the apple thats killing them.
    There are plenty of murderers out there that arent immediately held into custody.
    Only because they can't be found, or because of corruption. Are you suggesting God is incapable of finding Satan or that god is corrupt?
    If Satan is thrown into custody as soon as he's done something wrong, im pretty sure the rest of us would have to go along the same lines and that would mean that theres no free will. Satan is still being given the chance to stop what he's doing on his own accord, and the fact that he wont would make the judgement even more fair.
    So god is sacrificing the souls of billions of people to prove a point to satan?
    It wasnt just the garden that got destroyed either, it was the entire planet. Who said he maintained it? Wasnt Adam given that job in the first place?
    the entire planet didn't get destroyed, it just got a bit wet.

    And why did god prevent adam from getting back in if it was going to decay just like the rest of the world?


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  • #42
    armour87
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 848 ✭✭✭armour87


    worst thread ever


  • #43
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Akrasia wrote: »
    they didn't die because the apple killed them, they died because God decided to remove their immortality.

    Its a bit like if the government decide to ban apples and impose a death sentence on anyone found eating one. If they eat an apple, they will die, but its not the apple thats killing them.

    Who said anything about the apple killing them? :confused:


  • #44
    donutface
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 461 ✭✭donutface


    Akrasia wrote: »
    they didn't die because the apple killed them, they died because God decided to remove their immortality.

    Its a bit like if the government decide to ban apples and impose a death sentence on anyone found eating one. If they eat an apple, they will die, but its not the apple thats killing them.


    Only because they can't be found, or because of corruption. Are you suggesting God is incapable of finding Satan or that god is corrupt?

    So god is sacrificing the souls of billions of people to prove a point to satan?

    the entire planet didn't get destroyed, it just got a bit wet.

    And why did god prevent adam from getting back in if it was going to decay just like the rest of the world?

    Wether the Apple killed them or their immortality got removed is irrelevant to my point about heroine. Both ultimately causes death, neither is usually immediate. I can tell you you will probably end up dead if you take heroine on a regular basis, it doesnt have to be as soon as you stick a syringe in your arm. God never said it was to be immediate either.

    God never sacrificed anyones soul, people are sacrificing their own souls. Infact God himself sent his only son to save peoples souls who want to be saved. Your picture of God seems to be an uninformed one.

    New Orleans practically got destroyed by hurricane katrina, imagine that on a global scale, it got a lot more than just "a bit wet"

    Ill finish this post later, ive got other work to do for now.


  • #45
    rockbeer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    donutface wrote: »
    I can tell you you will probably end up dead if you take heroine on a regular basis, it doesnt have to be as soon as you stick a syringe in your arm.

    What exactly is your point? You will 'probably' end up dead whether you take heroine or not. Most people die in the end, not just junkies.

    Actually you're only showing your ignorance here. You could take heroine almost indefinitely provided you had a reliable supply of clean gear of a predictable strength, and looked after yourself in other ways. The typical problems heroine causes for people are usually associated rather than direct e.g. too much of their income goes on their habit, they have to get involved in criminality to support their habit, they use dirty needles or they stop eating properly. Addicts are most likely to od when they get hold of much stronger gear than they're used to. Remove all these factors and the odds are greatly reduced of heroine killing you before you die of something else.

    You christians are an odd bunch. For subscribers to a supposedly 'forgiving' faith, many of you seem to take a twisted and extraordinary pleasure in the prospect of judgement and punishment for 'sinners'. Does that thought sustain you in your denial of all the basic human pleasures proscribed by your faith? Does it make you feel better to imagine that people who are out there enjoy sinning while you endure your self-denial will end up suffering for it?


  • #46
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Depeche_Mode wrote: »
    “The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” (Gen 6:6)

    Sounds to me like God recognised he made a mistake.

    So now you want to take Genesis literally? :D

    God created us all with the means to make free choices on which path we wish to follow. On whom we are going to serve and love.

    I choose to love and serve God. Others choose to serve themselves, still others to serve other gods.

    When eternity hits you will reside with your chosen god, the place your heart has taken you.


  • #47
    Standman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Thats easy, god can't kill satan because satan doesn't exist. Also, it is hard for god to kill satan because god doesn't exist either. Actually, I'm not even sure if this thread exists...


  • #48
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Standman wrote: »
    Thats easy, god can't kill satan because satan doesn't exist. Also, it is hard for god to kill satan because god doesn't exist either. Actually, I'm not even sure if this thread exists...

    The existence of the world outside of your subjective mind is unprovable. If you're happy enough to make the leap that it does exist, the thread follows. Looking back through the thread, it may be better to assume this is a bad dream.


  • #49
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    When eternity hits you will reside with your chosen god, the place your heart has taken you.

    Unless one specific religion is actually completely right. In the best case scenario there (Christianity is right), about 60% of all people are in for a really unpleasant afterlife.


  • #50
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,086 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Unless one specific religion is actually completely right. In the best case scenario there (Christianity is right), about 60% of all people are in for a really unpleasant afterlife.

    Guess we are all screwed if Tom Cruise is right :pac:


  • #51
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,647 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    There is some major misinterpretation of the book of Genesis here.

    The whole point of the garden of evil was nothing to with dying or not dying. It was about free will. in simple terms God gave Adam and Even the privilege of the garden as long as they didnt eat the apples from the forbidden tree. Satan however, in the form of a snake, tempted the 2 lads with forbidden fruit.

    Satan wasnt created in the garden.

    It doesnt really matter whether the garden of eve existed or not, its the symbolic, spirtual and metaphorical significance that it yields that does imo.

    E.g. God has given humans the privilege and beauty of the world to do as we please here and to each other. Satan has tempted humans with evil and some rather enjoyable sins which in turn have had negative reprecussions for everyone.

    A simple analogy i know but its along those lines i believe to be the point.

    As the Metaron once said, "We went through five Adams before we figured that one out" ;)


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  • #52
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Guess we are all screwed if Tom Cruise is right :pac:

    Why doesn't God kill Xenu?


  • #53
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    faceman wrote: »
    There is some major misinterpretation of the book of Genesis here.

    The whole point of the garden of evil was nothing to with dying or not dying. It was about free will. in simple terms God gave Adam and Even the privilege of the garden as long as they didnt eat the apples from the forbidden tree.

    Doesn't say it was apples. Apples are sin-free.


  • #54
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    I choose to love and serve God. Others choose to serve themselves, still others to serve other gods.

    You make it sound like serving the needs of other humans, rather than an all powerful supernatural deity who doesn't actually need or want for anything, is a bad thing :confused:


  • #55
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    faceman wrote: »
    The whole point of the garden of evil was nothing to with dying or not dying. It was about free will. in simple terms God gave Adam and Even the privilege of the garden as long as they didnt eat the apples from the forbidden tree. Satan however, in the form of a snake, tempted the 2 lads with forbidden fruit.

    Well really the purpose of the story is to explain to the followers why if God is loving and cares about us do we all live in a dangerous harsh world full of disease, war, suffering and ultimately death.

    And naturally it was all "our" fault.


  • #56
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Why doesn't God kill Xenu?
    Because Xenu would just sue God.


  • #57
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,781 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Well really the purpose of the story is to explain to the followers why if God is loving and cares about us do we all live in a dangerous harsh world full of disease, war, suffering and ultimately death.

    And naturally it was all "our" fault.

    Terrible way to explain it then. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:17
    but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die
    But how where they to know it was wrong to eat from the tree if they needed to eat from the tree to understand Good and Evil? They did so in ignorance, and not only that but they where tricked by the most Evil thing there is according to Christian belief. But instead of God realising it wasn't their fault because a) they where tricked by Satan and b) they didn't even know the difference between Good and Evil, God kicked them out of the garden of eden. Sounds very loving


  • #58
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Terrible way to explain it then. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:17

    But how where they to know it was wrong to eat from the tree if they needed to eat from the tree to understand Good and Evil? They did so in ignorance, and not only that but they where tricked by the most Evil thing there is according to Christian belief. But instead of God realising it wasn't their fault because a) they where tricked by Satan and b) they didn't even know the difference between Good and Evil, God kicked them out of the garden of eden. Sounds very loving

    I suppose it could be seen as a metaphor for the transition of our species from animal ancestors into self awareness and moral agency.

    Well, if we assume that "man" refers both to humans and to Neanderthals since they made the same transition as we did.


  • #59
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Terrible way to explain it then. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 2:17

    But how where they to know it was wrong to eat from the tree if they needed to eat from the tree to understand Good and Evil? They did so in ignorance, and not only that but they where tricked by the most Evil thing there is according to Christian belief. But instead of God realising it wasn't their fault because a) they where tricked by Satan and b) they didn't even know the difference between Good and Evil, God kicked them out of the garden of eden. Sounds very loving

    Well the argument is that they knew some good and evil, they were supposed to know that they should follow God's instruction (not sure where in Genesis they were told this).

    But really you are reading too much into. As I said its purpose doesn't go much beyond "God loves you, things are bad, its your fault not his" Emphasis on the "your" part.

    Delving deeper into the story than that and you are bound to run into problems.


  • #60
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    humanji wrote: »
    Because Xenu would just sue God.

    Quite true. In the grand rock, paper, scissors game of life... money > faith. Actually I think that may not work as an analogy at all because of the circularity thing. Oh sod it, I should be asleep anyway.


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  • #61
    L31mr0d
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭L31mr0d


    Heres a brief synopsis of how I understand the bible story

    * God created perfect man
    * Satan proved perfect man could not stay faithful to God
    * God made man imperfect because of this sin
    * Satan then posed the question that imperfect man could not stay faithful
    * God tested Job who proved imperfect man could stay faithful
    * To give humans the opportunity to become perfect again God sent his son to earth
    * Jesus proved that perfect man could stay faithful to God
    * Since both imperfect and perfect man had now been proven that they could stay faithful, God put in place a system whereby those who stayed faithful while imperfect would attain perfection when they died
    * This testing period will end at Armageddon when mankind has gotten to the point when no imperfect man has the ability to believe in God anymore


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