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What is 'Babylon The great'?

  • 24-04-2008 5:14pm
    #1
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭


    i've heard it her describe as The RC Church and World religion. What do yee reckon?

    The charachter rides on the back of the beast (the nations) but the nations eventually devour her. there is also regerence to the sea merchants lamenting over her destruction because she made them wealthy. I assume no-one knows for certain, but would like to see various interpretations.

    I'd like this to be discussed by christian posters only please. just so there is no distraction.


Comments

  • #2
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I think this subject was kinda touched on before :)http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055203543&highlight=whore+of+babylon


  • #3
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    ^^Wasn't exactly discussed there was it:) Strange, I find alot of people back away from revelation. I love the stuff. Shame no-one wants to input though, Booo:( Just myself and the family so:) its a meaty topic.


  • #4
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    JimiTime wrote: »
    ^^Wasn't exactly discussed there was it:) Strange, I find alot of people back away from revelation. I love the stuff. Shame no-one wants to input though, Booo:( Just myself and the family so:) its a meaty topic.
    I also find it one of the most interesting part of the Bible and is probably the one part that alott of churches like to stick their heads in the sand about. You would never hear much about "Babylon the Great" being discussed at a Mass. :eek:


  • #5
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I think this subject was kinda touched on before :)http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055203543&highlight=whore+of+babylon

    More Revelation discussed here to. :eek:


  • #6
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    More Revelation discussed here to. :eek:


    i remember that thread, checked in on it a few times then ignored it. Seemed to get dragged down a distracting route. Very strange for boards:) Just checked it now though. Seemed to get a little bit back on track at the end. So, have you any idea's on babylon the great?


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  • #7
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    I think one of the problems with disussing babylon as described in Revelation is that we just dont know.

    The enemies of the RC church liked to portray it as the Babylon and therefore worthy of destruction both the institutions and its members.

    As we look at todays world and we see the economic power of places such as India and CHina and the USA, it could be either of those.

    Then when I get up this am and see gas prices up aniother 4 cents a litre maybe it really is Babylon in the Middle Eastern countries or even our good old province of Alberta with our oilsands.


  • #8
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    I think one of the problems with disussing babylon as described in Revelation is that we just dont know.

    The enemies of the RC church liked to portray it as the Babylon and therefore worthy of destruction both the institutions and its members.

    As we look at todays world and we see the economic power of places such as India and CHina and the USA, it could be either of those.

    Then when I get up this am and see gas prices up aniother 4 cents a litre maybe it really is Babylon in the Middle Eastern countries or even our good old province of Alberta with our oilsands.

    Babylon the great can't be another nation can it? Its sitting on the back of nations. Sounds more like an institution which all nations access. Which the nations will eventually turn on and destroy. What u reckon?

    As for the problems discussing it. I hate that. There is a danger of people being over eager to say 'its them' etc, but locking it away from discussion? No way. I was always quizzing about it in school, and the teachers never had a clue about it. It was like, 'no, we don't like to talk about that one'. Always made me curious, and suspicious.


  • #9
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i remember that thread, checked in on it a few times then ignored it. Seemed to get dragged down a distracting route. Very strange for boards:) Just checked it now though. Seemed to get a little bit back on track at the end. So, have you any idea's on babylon the great?

    I believe that the MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH as described in the book of Revelation is none other that the institution of the Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the machinery which drives it not the ordniary catholic people per se. I believe that when the Rapture takes place that the forces of Satan will make a bee line for this institution, because those in it who are also part of the restraining force which holds back the spirit of antichrist that Paul speaks about will be taken out of the way by Rapture and will therefore weaken the RCC to such an extent that it will be a push over for the forces of Satan to move in. The RCC is the only Church that has all the attributes of the great whore as described in Revelation. No wonder John was astonished when he seen her. All her pagan rituals that she has adopted throughout the centuries that are not Christian. All her sins. The burning and killing and persecuting of great men of God whose one goal in life was to raise God's Word above everything else including the traditions that make void the word of God. She is truly drunk with the blood of these saints of God. She is one who sleeps with the kings of the earth. Remember Pope John Paul's funeral? See all the leaders of the world at that? No King or President of any country could amass such a gathering of world leaders for their funerals. That will tell you where her priorities lie, and it’s not doing God's will. Gods will is that the Good News of His Son be preached, not traditions of men and pagan rituals. I used to be Catholic and I never ever heard any priest tell me about the good news of Jesus Christ. That he died to pay the penalty for my sins and that I do not need to pay for them. All I got was that I need to confess to a priest to be forgiven when God had already laid my sins on Christ. Yes I am convinced that this whore is none other than the evil institution of the RCC. You?


  • #10
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    I believe that the MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH as described in the book of Revelation is none other that the institution of the Roman Catholic Church, i.e. the machinery which drives it not the ordniary catholic people per se. I believe that when the Rapture takes place that the forces of Satan will make a bee line for this institution, because those in it who are also part of the restraining force which holds back the spirit of antichrist that Paul speaks about will be taken out of the way by Rapture and will therefore weaken the RCC to such an extent that it will be a push over for the forces of Satan to move in. The RCC is the only Church that has all the attributes of the great whore as described in Revelation. No wonder John was astonished when he seen her. All her pagan rituals that she has adopted of the centuries that are not Christian. All her sins. The burning and killing and persecuting of great men of God whose one goal in life was to raise God's Word above everything else including the traditions that make void the word of God. She is truly drunk with the blood of these saints of God. She is one who sleeps with the kings of the earth. Remember Pope John Paul's funeral? See all the leaders of the world at that? No King or President of any country could amass such a gathering of world leaders for their funerals. That will tell you where her priorities lie, and it’s not doing God's will. Gods will is that the Good News of His Son be preached, not traditions of men and pagan rituals. I used to be Catholic and I never ever heard any priest tell me about the good news of Jesus Christ. That he died to pay the penalty for my sins and that I do not need to pay for them. All I got was that I need to confess to a priest to be forgiven when God had already laid my sins on Christ. Yes I am convinced that this whore is none other the evil institution of the RCC. You?
    I go along with much of that, Bro. Aside from the timing of the Rapture.

    I think the view that it is a religious organisation rather than a political one is strongly supported by the symbolism: the Whore as contrasted to the Bride in Revelation.

    The Bride is the True Church; the Whore then is the pre-eminent False Church.

    The political organisations (nations) are manipulated by the Whore, only to one day turn on her in hatred, shake off her burden and destroy her.

    As you pointed out, the Roman Catholic Church is the only one in history to fit the description - luxurious, corrupt, powerful, blood-thirsty. But also containing some real Christians:
    Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.


  • #11
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I go along with much of that, Bro. Aside from the timing of the Rapture.

    I think the view that it is a religious organisation rather than a political one is strongly supported by the symbolism: the Whore as contrasted to the Bride in Revelation.

    The Bride is the True Church; the Whore then is the pre-eminent False Church.

    The political organisations (nations) are manipulated by the Whore, only to one day turn on her in hatred, shake off her burden and destroy her.

    As you pointed out, the Roman Catholic Church is the only one in history to fit the description - luxurious, corrupt, powerful, blood-thirsty. But also containing some real Christians:
    Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

    Bro! I like that :o We must do lunch sometime, I'll have my people call your people and maybe we can discuss the timing of the Rapture of the Church (or the catching away of the saints) over a Latté or an Espresso. My treat :D


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  • #12
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Bro! I like that :o We must do lunch sometime, I'll have my people call your people and maybe we can discuss the timing of the Rapture of the Church (or the catching away of the saints) over a Latté or an Espresso. My treat :D

    can I come? I wont say much. I promise:)

    As for it being the RCC, It certainly matches alot of the descriptions. However, what of the sea merchants lamenting over her destruction? How does that relate to the RCC?


  • #13
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    I also find it one of the most interesting part of the Bible and is probably the one part that alott of churches like to stick their heads in the sand about. You would never hear much about "Babylon the Great" being discussed at a Mass. :eek:

    This was the most recent book we discussed in our tuesday bible study class, but alas I couldn't attend all the classes didn't get as far as Chapter 17 :( Though as Brian has pointed out we really don't know with Revelation, and could be here till kingdom come (of course then we'll all understand :D )

    IMO, although Revelation is for the most part concerned with escatology, I think Babylon the great initially refers to Rome as in the time of the great empire. Note the reference to purple/scarlet/precious stones/kings, but I think it is also pointing to future 'kingdoms'.

    Verse 17: 5-6 in particular alludes to the Rome reference:

    5This title was written on her forehead:
    MYSTERY
    BABYLON THE GREAT
    THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
    AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

    'Mother of all prostitutes' meaning Rome is first and more will follow.
    'Blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus'-obviously referring to the slaughter of Christians.


  • #14
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    JimiTime said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Soul Winner
    Bro! I like that We must do lunch sometime, I'll have my people call your people and maybe we can discuss the timing of the Rapture of the Church (or the catching away of the saints) over a Latté or an Espresso. My treat

    can I come? I wont say much. I promise
    I would be glad to spend time with you guys. I don't often get down South, but if you are coming up this way anytime, PM me and we'll meet up.

    Maybe I'll catch a conference or something down your way this year. If you hear of any interesting events, be sure to let us all know.


  • #15
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I would be glad to spend time with you guys. I don't often get down South, but if you are coming up this way anytime, PM me and we'll meet up.

    Maybe I'll catch a conference or something down your way this year. If you hear of any interesting events, be sure to let us all know.

    Hey hey, will do if I hear of anything I will let you guys know :D


  • #16
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    JimiTime wrote: »
    As for it being the RCC, It certainly matches alot of the descriptions. However, what of the sea merchants lamenting over her destruction? How does that relate to the RCC?

    Any takers?


  • #17
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    I have a real fear and trepidation when I hear people claim that it is the RC church.

    I know many fine Christians within the RC church, my Mother-in-law being one of them.

    Today we see the RC church losing its once hefty influence. It no longer holds sway over political leaders like it once did.

    New Age type mysticism holds far more power over the idealogies of oue world today. Witness the interest in the saving of and worship of our mother Earth.


  • #18
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    I have a real fear and trepidation when I hear people claim that it is the RC church.

    Why?
    I know many fine Christians within the RC church, my Mother-in-law being one of them.

    As I'm sure God does, but what has that got to do with it?
    Today we see the RC church losing its once hefty influence. It no longer holds sway over political leaders like it once did.

    You do know Babylon the great is due to fall? What you are saying above is why many feel that the RCC is a candidate. I'm not so sure myself. There is no doubt that the RCC and the harlot share some things, there are other things that would indicate maybe not. Such as the sea merchants lament, as I descibed above. I would certainly not be certain of what Babylon the great is, but I certainly would not rule out the RCC. Why is it, that you'd rule it out?
    New Age type mysticism holds far more power over the idealogies of oue world today. Witness the interest in the saving of and worship of our mother Earth.

    But does your above stand up to scutiny, when analysed with the harlot described in Revelation? I'm not saying it doesn't, but would love to see your reasoning. after all, thats why I opened the thread.


  • #19
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Witness the interest in the saving of and worship of our mother Earth.
    Am I right in thinking that you have little interest in preserving the environment we live in?


  • #20
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Why?

    .

    Because then others see it as an opportunity to persecute.

    As for reasoning on New Age mysticism. The harlot is one who offers pleasures, being Earthly they'd be material, I would also gather satisfying mankinds selfish desires.

    New Age mysticism allows for one to do this, set their own standards and morals.

    But as you say, I nor does any one really know. I dont rule out the RC church, but I have trouble acceoting it as such because of its waning influence.

    Oprah has more influence than teh RC church and she has quite an institution going.:)


  • #21
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Any takers?

    I'll have a go.

    It states the following in Revelation 17:15

    "Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages."

    With this in mind it might be a good idea to look at the merchants of the sea as being those who have ships in this sea which said sea is described as peoples, multitudes, nations and languages not an actual sea of water. I always thought that big Churches especially cathedrals reminded me of those big tall ships with the huge masts. I could be wrong but it is worth noting. To John that's probably what they reminded him of. He would have never seen a Church building like this before, but like I said I could be wrong. If the sea that she sits on are peoples multitudes, nations etc then what else could the ships be? I would like to know what anyone else thinks.

    When you read the next verse in that context it sort of makes sense especially when you mix in her other previously discussed attributes.

    "17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
    " 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
    In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
    20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
    Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
    God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " Rev 17:18-20


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  • #22
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    I'll have a go.

    It states the following in Revelation 17:15

    "Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages."

    With this in mind it might be a good idea to look at the merchants of the sea as being those who have ships in this sea which said sea is described as peoples, multitudes, nations and languages not an actual sea of water. I always thought that big Churches especially cathedrals reminded me of those big tall ships with the huge masts. I could be wrong but it is worth noting. To John that's probably what they reminded him of. He would have never seen a Church building like this before, but like I said I could be wrong. If the sea that she sits on are peoples multitudes, nations etc then what else could the ships be? I would like to know what anyone else thinks.

    When you read the next verse in that context it sort of makes sense especially when you mix in her other previously discussed attributes.

    "17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!' Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. 18When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim, 'Was there ever a city like this great city?' 19They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
    " 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
    where all who had ships on the sea
    became rich through her wealth!
    In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
    20Rejoice over her, O heaven!
    Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets!
    God has judged her for the way she treated you.' " Rev 17:18-20


    Have to say, the above verses are exactly why I would doubt its the RCC. I still just don't get it with the sea merchants etc. Who are these people who had ships that got/gets rich of the RCC?

    I personally think that if we count a church as a ship as you suggest, it still does not really explain it. Who are the merchants of these ships? Priests? Bishops? Do these people have wealth? i thought they had little, and that it all belonged to the church?

    Personally, I think the explaination is stretching it a bit. I'll try and get a summary of the harlots charachteristics together and see what ticks the boxes.


  • #23
    Dog Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Dog Fan


    I was never a great one for reading Revelation.
    However, the timing of the writing is significant. (I am of that school where one needs to know the context of a book to fully understand where the author is going)

    Revelation was written at a time when the emerging Church was undergoing persecution. The basic promise of the book was that, yes, there are hard times ahead, some of you will be tortured and die, but for those who persevere in their faith, there will be salvation - and by the way, the people who persecute us will be damned.

    Regarding Babylon, perhaps this works as an explanation (and Please, I am open to correction)
    Babylon was a place of slavery for the Jews for many years (by the rivers of Babylon, etc). Many Christians were very familiar with the scriptural heritage of Judaism, so Babylon would have been code to them for the Roman Empire.


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