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Experience with God

  • 29-04-2008 12:21am
    #1
    Galmay
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭


    Hey, I just wish to convey a couple of experiences I had a number of years ago aged 19-20 or so and see if anyone else has experienced anything similar. Now I was raised catholic but more or less stopped going to mass around 15/16 (the usual), holding a casual belief in God, similar to most teens at the time. Anyway...

    Sitting at home one night alone, everone else in bed shortly after midnight, just turned off the telly, reading the paper, no other sound in the house. Then simply, a feeling of overwhelming contentness came over me and the room became a small bit brighter (golden tinged-cliche but not in a unrealistic way). After 4 or 5 seconds it became clear that God was in the room. No booming voice or anything like that, I just "knew". Hard to explain but im afraid that the closest i can come to explaining it. He informed me He was there without words and I just "knew" of his presence. It was a state of bliss that lasted maybe 5 minutes. I didnt freak out just instinctively sat back and enjoyed the peace and calm. Then it stopped.

    Same thing happened again maybe a month later, but lasted shorter maybe 2 minutes and was not as intense.

    Now, i wasnt over religious or easily influenced or anything. Thought later it might be my head playing tricks on me and tried for ages to conjure up that feeling with my thoughts again but was never able. Plus, I "knew" already what the answer was.
    Nowadays im probably less religious than ever, esp after losing a family member over a yr ago and as ive a science background i can understand all arguments against Gods existence. they make perfect sense to me, christianity doesnt, but all i ever have to do is remember those two experiences and I know that God exists.
    Did this or anything similar ever happen to anyone else?


Comments

  • #2
    TravelJunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭TravelJunkie


    Something kinda similar happened when I was about 17/18 years, I coudn't tell you for sure how old I was.

    Firstly let me tell you that I am a Christian now, and at that time I was also a christian although much less experienced but I had already put my faith in and accepted Jesus.

    To the story. There were people staying with us so it happened that I was sharing my room with my sister, and her friend was sleeping over too, so they were on a mattress on the floor. My sister and her friend would've been 13/14 at the time.

    While I was asleep my sister woke up and saw a brilliant white shining light, she thought I had turned the light on in the room and was giving out as to why I turned the light on. When she looked properly she saw that it wasn't the bedroom light but a bright shining figure, which she thought was an angel, standing over my head and looking down at me. It was the figure that was emanating the light. She went back to sleep.

    The next morning as she told me about what she saw, her friend, who was also in the room, said she too had seen the same thing. Their stories collaborated and I believed them because of the sincerity and conviction that would go with something like this. They both described the figure exactly the same. On my part, I don't know why this happened but next day I was feeling at peace.

    I was attending a bible study group at the time. The very next meeting they were talking about the transfiguration of Christ. It was so weird because the bible study group leader, not knowing any of this, started describing what he imagined Christ would've looked like in a transfigured state. To this day I won't forget that he used the same descriptive words my sister and her friend had used and that touched me. There is no doubt in my mind that it was christ they saw above my head that night.

    Why? I don't know. Perhaps he was protecting me from something, he's done it many times since. Or maybe it was just so that I could tell you.

    In terms of believing about God I wouldn't worry about science and stuff. You can waste away precious days / weeks / years to prove or disprove whether he exists. Many do it every day on this forum. Faith is intangible but the most powerful thing we possess. It takes courage and trust to exercise even the tiniest bit of faith - it is scary - but at the end of the day it takes only one decision to do so.

    I hope you find your answers.


  • #3
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I am a Christian, but am a skeptic when it comes to 'I had this feeling' or 'I saw this light', type scenario's. I have had the feelings described, and believe it or not one of my best friends said 'he saw God in my eyes one time'. I still slag him about that one:). He became a christian through our friendship and our discussion though.

    I still don't believe that the feeling of calm and peace I've felt on occasion, or indeed the ambiguous claim of my friend is anything to credit to God. If God wanted to make himself known to you, then he'd do it. Not in ambiguous feelings or lights. I'd say if you looked into most religions you'll find this type of testimony. The only testimony that counts in such things, is if its direct. Not just a feeling etc. I would ask, where in the testimonies of the bible writers, has God ever worked in this manner? When God is present in bible accounts, its like Paul on the road to Damascus, or the tongues of fire at Pentecost. Or in the fire that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah. A blind man seeing or a lame man walk. Nothing ambiguous.

    I personally don't buy it.


  • #4
    TravelJunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭TravelJunkie


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I am a Christian, but am a skeptic when it comes to 'I had this feeling' or 'I saw this light', type scenario's. I have had the feelings described, and believe it or not one of my best friends said 'he saw God in my eyes one time'. I still slag him about that one:). He became a christian through our friendship and our discussion though.

    I still don't believe that the feeling of calm and peace I've felt on occasion, or indeed the ambiguous claim of my friend is anything to credit to God. If God wanted to make himself known to you, then he'd do it. Not in ambiguous feelings or lights. I'd say if you looked into most religions you'll find this type of testimony. The only testimony that counts in such things, is if its direct. Not just a feeling etc. I would ask, where in the testimonies of the bible writers, has God ever worked in this manner? When God is present in bible accounts, its like Paul on the road to Damascus, or the tongues of fire at Pentecost. Or in the fire that rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah. A blind man seeing or a lame man walk. Nothing ambiguous.

    I personally don't buy it.


    I agree with you that if God wanted to intervene he could do it directly, or by scripture or testimony depending on circumstance of course.

    That doesn't mean that such experiences aren't from God. I can see you're a practical person. 'Soft' experiences above possibly might not hold any weight in terms of convincing someone God exists, but maybe that's not the point. Its unfair not to credit such an experience to God!


  • #5
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    TravelJunkie wrote: »
    I agree with you that if God wanted to intervene he could do it directly, or by scripture or testimony depending on circumstance of course.

    Its not really about 'could he'. Its reasoning his ways and asking 'would he'. He 'could' do these things if he wanted. However, he has given us no reason that I can recall, to believe he would work in such an ambiguous way.
    That doesn't mean that such experiences aren't from God. I can see you're a practical person. 'Soft' experiences above possibly might not hold any weight in terms of convincing someone God exists, but maybe that's not the point. Its unfair not to credit such an experience to God!

    I don't think its about 'fairness'. I think its to do with truth. I see no reason to account these things to God. I'm not completely closed off to the idea, but I haven't any reason to account them to God. Any such stories I take with a pinch of salt tbh.


  • #6
    TravelJunkie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭TravelJunkie


    Galmay's experience is ambiguous, you are right.

    And my experience, well I was a christian at the time so it really isn't the same thing. Too late to keep it to myself though.;)


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  • #7
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    On a number of occasions I have felt the overwhelming presence of intense evil strangling me. The Lords Prayer said and then the presence of teh Holy Spirit after a bit of a spiritual fight and the absolute peace that occurs after. God looking after me here as Satan has tried to attack.

    The time when I witnessed the second coming of Christ. The intense peace that passes all understanding. TBH I just wanted to die and go to Heaven. This life has since really not meant much as eternity is what counts.

    The time I was stopped getting off a bus as I was on my way to visit a friends friend. Discovered after that the guy I was off to visit was a recruiter for porn. Thanks to God for stopping me getting off that bus.

    Sorry JT, God visits us in real and various ways.


  • #8
    Istrancis
    Registered Users Posts: 28 ✭Istrancis


    TravelJunkie wrote: »
    Maybe it was just so that I could tell you.


    I like that hypothesis, you never know what He's got planned.


  • #9
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    Sorry JT, God visits us in real and various ways.

    And you are entitled to believe that. I just think you may be mistaken. As I said, there is no evidence of God working in such ways to my knowledge. Maybe I'm wrong?

    The things you describe, I've heard similar testimonies from people of other religions. I would not ridicule such things. However, i would be a skeptic and wouldn't be convinced by them. I know a Jehovahs Witness who said they were contemplating suicide and feeling at an all time low, when a tract of their literature 'flew' in the window. They read it and it changed their life. Cat Stevens converted to Islam after God saved him from drowning etc. These things you can believe are God, but thats really it IMO.

    I'd ask again, what basis do you have for believing God acts in such an ambiguous way?

    Personally, I think people who have an overwhelming desire to have a spiritual experience will convince themselves of such things. Again though, I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, I just think you may be mistaken.


  • #10
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    JimiTime wrote: »
    And you are entitled to believe that. I just think you may be mistaken. As I said, there is no evidence of God working in such ways to my knowledge. Maybe I'm wrong?

    The things you describe, I've heard similar testimonies from people of other religions. I would not ridicule such things. However, i would be a skeptic and wouldn't be convinced by them. I know a Jehovahs Witness who said they were contemplating suicide and feeling at an all time low, when a tract of their literature 'flew' in the window. They read it and it changed their life. Cat Stevens converted to Islam after God saved him from drowning etc. These things you can believe are God, but thats really it IMO.

    I'd ask again, what basis do you have for believing God acts in such an ambiguous way?

    Personally, I think people who have an overwhelming desire to have a spiritual experience will convince themselves of such things. Again though, I'm not calling you a liar or anything like that, I just think you may be mistaken.

    Fair enough. :)


  • #11
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Galmay wrote: »
    Sitting at home one night alone, everone else in bed shortly after midnight, just turned off the telly, reading the paper, no other sound in the house. Then simply, a feeling of overwhelming contentness came over me and the room became a small bit brighter (golden tinged-cliche but not in a unrealistic way). After 4 or 5 seconds it became clear that God was in the room. No booming voice or anything like that, I just "knew". Hard to explain but im afraid that the closest i can come to explaining it. He informed me He was there without words and I just "knew" of his presence. It was a state of bliss that lasted maybe 5 minutes. I didnt freak out just instinctively sat back and enjoyed the peace and calm. Then it stopped.

    Same thing happened again maybe a month later, but lasted shorter maybe 2 minutes and was not as intense.

    Now, i wasnt over religious or easily influenced or anything. Thought later it might be my head playing tricks on me and tried for ages to conjure up that feeling with my thoughts again but was never able. Plus, I "knew" already what the answer was.
    Nowadays im probably less religious than ever, esp after losing a family member over a yr ago and as ive a science background i can understand all arguments against Gods existence. they make perfect sense to me, christianity doesnt, but all i ever have to do is remember those two experiences and I know that God exists.
    Did this or anything similar ever happen to anyone else?
    Hello Galmay. first, welcome to the forum.

    To be honest I'm a bit concerned about the experience you describe. You say you're certain that it was God's presence in the room but the bit I'm concerned about is that this experience doesn't appear to have brought you any closer to God. As you said yourself, you're now less religious than ever. Why is that?

    I'd nearly bet my life on it that if you had actually been visited by God's presence, you would definitely have grown closer to God and Jesus. You also say that Christianity doesn't make sense to you, which makes me wonder too. It certainly sounds like a supernatural experience but I doubt that it was from God. As scripture says, the devil can appear as an angel of light and that includes that ability to cause ecstasy.

    The greatest mystic saints always warn us to be careful about supernatural experiences and it takes skill to discern the true presence of God. We should never seek these experiences in case we attract false visions/locutions etc.

    That's my advice anyway. :)

    God bless,
    Noel.


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  • #12
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    TravelJunkie wrote: »
    In terms of believing about God I wouldn't worry about science and stuff. You can waste away precious days / weeks / years to prove or disprove whether he exists. Many do it every day on this forum. Faith is intangible but the most powerful thing we possess. It takes courage and trust to exercise even the tiniest bit of faith - it is scary - but at the end of the day it takes only one decision to do so.
    Good advice TJ!


  • #13
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    On a number of occasions I have felt the overwhelming presence of intense evil strangling me. The Lords Prayer said and then the presence of teh Holy Spirit after a bit of a spiritual fight and the absolute peace that occurs after. God looking after me here as Satan has tried to attack.

    God and Satan personally fought over you? You must feel privileged.


  • #14
    PoleStar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭PoleStar


    Before anyone starts on me lol I am NOT a Troll. But like many atheists I do frequent the religious forums.

    I myself have had such experiences too. I will use the word "spiritual" here to represent these scenarios while not meaning in the religious sense, just for want of a better word.

    Anyhows, I have had episodes of conscious mind (not asleep) where as you say, maybe I feel very calm, and almost feel like I have just nearly glimpsed a truth beyond my normal day to day experiences.

    Personally I feel these are states of coscious mind, similar to those acheivedd by experienced meditators, but just happened by chance in myself. I believe they are moments of conscious clarity and represent nothing of the supernatural whatsover. That is my interpretation as an atheist.

    I feel the religious individual is having the same experience that I have but jsut because they have "faith", they think it was God who produced this and not their own mind.

    Would anyone agree? Or would people here maybe just think God is trying to tempt me back to the Church!


  • #15
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PoleStar wrote: »
    Before anyone starts on me lol I am NOT a Troll. But like many atheists I do frequent the religious forums.

    I myself have had such experiences too. I will use the word "spiritual" here to represent these scenarios while not meaning in the religious sense, just for want of a better word.

    Anyhows, I have had episodes of conscious mind (not asleep) where as you say, maybe I feel very calm, and almost feel like I have just nearly glimpsed a truth beyond my normal day to day experiences.

    Personally I feel these are states of coscious mind, similar to those acheivedd by experienced meditators, but just happened by chance in myself. I believe they are moments of conscious clarity and represent nothing of the supernatural whatsover. That is my interpretation as an atheist.

    I feel the religious individual is having the same experience that I have but jsut because they have "faith", they think it was God who produced this and not their own mind.

    Would anyone agree? Or would people here maybe just think God is trying to tempt me back to the Church!

    I would agree. As I've mentioned, i think if god is going to pour out his spirit, you'll get more than a 'sense of calm'. i've seen people using these ambiguous testimonies in trying to convince others that God exists etc. As a christian, i personally think this does very little to convince. I believe in God, and it doesn't convince me.


  • #16
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I have experienced the kind of thing Galmay describes on many occasions. I don't think it is intended to prove anything to anybody, but it seems natural enough to me that someone with a personal relationship with Christ should enjoy the presence of God on occasion.

    Neither should the experience make Galmay immediately become religious. Indeed, it may be that the kinds of religiosity he is familiar with are a million miles away from his experience. I hope that what happened will, in the future, help him to experience God in a less ambiguous way.


  • #17
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    PoleStar wrote: »
    Anyhows, I have had episodes of conscious mind (not asleep) where as you say, maybe I feel very calm, and almost feel like I have just nearly glimpsed a truth beyond my normal day to day experiences.

    Personally I feel these are states of coscious mind, similar to those acheivedd by experienced meditators, but just happened by chance in myself. I believe they are moments of conscious clarity and represent nothing of the supernatural whatsover. That is my interpretation as an atheist.

    I believe Ive had similar experiences. Would you agree it feels like a moment of clarity of mind?


  • #18
    JoeB-
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 689 ✭✭✭JoeB-


    OK, as Dawkins says 'the argument (of gods existence) from personnel experience' may be the most convincing to the people who experience it but very unconvincing to others.

    The mind is undoubtably a very powerful thing and it can easily 'fool' us.. after all the reality we experience everyday is entirely created by our brains. There have also been scientific experiments in which hindering the working of some parts of the brain can result in overwhelmingly real 'out of body' and spiritual experiences... so I feel a rational or physical explanation must be favoured over a 'superstitous' or a 'magical' explanation (which is what any religious explanation really is).

    TravelJunkie, your story seems incredible (i.e not credible) from some points...
    Quote
    but a bright shining figure, which she thought was an angel, standing over my head and looking down at me. It was the figure that was emanating the light. She went back to sleep.
    End Quote
    Surely something so amazing would have had more of an effect than simply sending her back to sleep... it is akin to her waking up to see you levitating six feet off the bed... so she rolls over and tells you about it in the morning????
    Her friend collaborating the story must simply be taken as two young girls agreeing with one another... (the alternative is to accept 'magic' based on this alone)

    Cheers
    Joe


  • #19
    JCB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 306 ✭✭JCB


    I feel sort of left out here!

    But, I have found that my experiences with God involve Him answering my prayers and providing hope and better options in scenarios which I thought there were none.

    I often wonder about the many 'coincidences' in our lives and from my experience have found a certain providence behind them.


  • #20
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    JoeBallantine wrote: »
    OK, as Dawkins says 'the argument (of gods existence) from personnel experience' may be the most convincing to the people who experience it but very unconvincing to others.

    The mind is undoubtably a very powerful thing and it can easily 'fool' us.. after all the reality we experience everyday is entirely created by our brains. There have also been scientific experiments in which hindering the working of some parts of the brain can result in overwhelmingly real 'out of body' and spiritual experiences... so I feel a rational or physical explanation must be favoured over a 'superstitous' or a 'magical' explanation (which is what any religious explanation really is).


    Dawkins says a lot of things.

    I don't believe that those who have had such experiences would deny that there is a physiological response involved. But to deduce that all these experiences are due to tricks of the mind and nothing more is to take a step beyond what any experiment can say for sure.

    As an aside, the terms 'superstitious' and 'magical' in your post could easily be construed in a pejorative manner.


  • #21
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Galmay wrote: »
    Sitting at home one night alone, everone else in bed shortly after midnight, just turned off the telly, reading the paper, no other sound in the house. Then simply, a feeling of overwhelming contentness came over me and the room became a small bit brighter (golden tinged-cliche but not in a unrealistic way).
    If you can obtain it, take MDMA(Ecstasy), and compare what you feel to this experience. You'll probably realise then that these feelings of bliss can be entirely caused by chemicals in a natural manner. Now realise that in a state of tiredness late at night, that your state of mind could very possibly shift to a temporary state of bliss(ie. more serotonin than usual flooding your brain) and that your feelings were not due to a supernatural deity intervening.


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  • #22
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    If you can obtain it, take MDMA(Ecstasy), and compare what you feel to this experience. You'll probably realise then that these feelings of bliss can be entirely caused by chemicals in a natural manner. Now realise that in a state of tiredness late at night, that your state of mind could very possibly shift to a temporary state of bliss(ie. more serotonin than usual flooding your brain) and that your feelings were not due to a supernatural deity intervening.

    Take E's... That's great advice. Enjoy your ban. Taking ecstasy to experience an emotion isn't doing it in a 'natural manner'. It is quite the opposite.

    Anyway, been there, done that (many times). And It wasn't analogous, imo.


  • #23
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Natural meaning "not supernatural" or "possible in the natural world". Although taking drugs is quite a natural part of the human experience IMO, but here is not the place to discuss that.

    Why do you reckon I should be banned? Fair enough, my wording should have been more along the lines of "if you were to take E" rather than "you should take E", but I just felt that the way he described his experience was strikingly similar to how people descibe experiences on E and my point is just that in my opinion, experiences with God are probably just the result of a temporary alteration of brain chemistry. Since the OP says he has a science background and seems like a rational character, I reckoned such a contribution would have been welcomed by him.


  • #24
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Why? Well, it's just a guess, but I assume that the powers that be (and no, I don't mean God ;)) would not look too kindly on you encouraging an illegal activity on their commercially run site.

    From your last post - and it may have the wrong end of the stick here - it seems like you are only recanting other peoples experiences on drugs, and not your own personal experience. If this is the case, and I apologise if it is not, to then advise and encourage someone to take E's (no matter how diplomatically you word or reword it) is flabbergasting.


  • #25
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Wrong end of the stick. ;)

    I could edit my post and word it more hypothetically, but to be perfectly honest, I think it's clear that what I wrote was to make a point rather than encouraging the use of illegal drugs.


  • #26
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Fair enough.

    My apologies for the harsh tone in my posts.


  • #27
    beans
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭beans


    In fairness, anything which affects the flow of chemicals in the brain is capable of manifeseting itself with perceived changes in concsiousness - I would be more worried about the possibility of a brain-tumor than a visitation from god (but then I'm a hypochondriac!) :)


  • #28
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    in the Middle Ages , where a certain town was going through raptures: People speaking in tongues, seeing visions of angels and devils and all the rest.

    They reckon it was to do with the bread being left out too long: Ergot fungus contains LSD under the right conditions.

    I dont think any Atheist would deny that people experience these states.

    What is curious is that they invariably come from the religious culture they are surrounded by. For some reason you dont get people in Ireland having visions of Ganesh, and you dont get people in South America having visions of Mohamedd.

    Hmm, interesting.


  • #29
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    in the Middle Ages , where a certain town was going through raptures: People speaking in tongues, seeing visions of angels and devils and all the rest.

    They reckon it was to do with the bread being left out too long: Ergot fungus contains LSD under the right conditions.

    I dont think any Atheist would deny that people experience these states.

    What is curious is that they invariably come from the religious culture they are surrounded by. For some reason you dont get people in Ireland having visions of Ganesh, and you dont get people in South America having visions of Mohamedd.

    Hmm, interesting.

    You actually get quite a number of incidences in the Islamic world where Muslims, and even Imams, have visions or dreams of Jesus and, as a result, convert to Christianity. I have heard testimonies of this a number of times from such converts.


  • #30
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    they'd have heard who Christ is.

    One would assume that, If Christ, or Mohammed or Ganesh had an independant existence outside people's minds, then they would appear in visions to people who have never heard of them.

    Why does this not happen?


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  • #31
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    RealEstateKing wrote: »
    they'd have heard who Christ is.

    One would assume that, If Christ, or Mohammed or Ganesh had an independant existence outside people's minds, then they would appear in visions to people who have never heard of them.

    Why does this not happen?

    And where do you propose we should do our research? Where can we find a sufficiently large sample of people who have never heard of Jesus so that we can ask them if any of them have had such visions.

    BTW, there is a book called "Eternity in their Hearts" by Don Richardson, a missionary to New Guinea. Richardson discovered that stone-age tribes with no previous contact with outside civilisation had indeed received visions of Jesus. However, I suspect that you will find that hard to believe since it will conflict with your presuppositions.


  • #32
    RealEstateKing
    Closed Accounts Posts: 432 ✭✭RealEstateKing


    And where do you propose we should do our research?

    Well there wouldnt be many places left now, I wouldnt imagine. The upper amazon might be one place. New Guinea/Borneo might have spots alright.

    Thanks for the recommendation on the Don Richards book will have a look.
    However, I suspect that you will find that hard to believe since it will conflict with your presuppositions.

    And that it might. It would take quite some book to overturn reason, science and evidence alright.


  • #33
    BJC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭BJC


    Galmay wrote: »
    Ive a science background i can understand all arguments against Gods existence. they make perfect sense to me, christianity doesnt, but all i ever have to do is remember those two experiences and I know that God exists.

    You can belive in God outside the trappings of religion.


  • #34
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    Richardson discovered that stone-age tribes with no previous contact with outside civilisation had indeed received visions of Jesus.
    Strange -- to the best of my knowledge, the unprompted arrival of one culture's religious stories within another is completely unattested in the sociological and anthropological literature.

    If Richardson's 30-year old assertions are right, then he made a remarkable and major discovery and I'm surprised that he chose to report it in a mass-market book, rather than the scientific literature where such a revolutionary discovery would completely demolish some of anthropology's most basic principles.

    Could you be more specific about exactly what he reported?


  • #35
    Eschatologist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 76 ✭✭Eschatologist


    PoleStar wrote: »
    Anyhows, I have had episodes of conscious mind (not asleep) where as you say, maybe I feel very calm, and almost feel like I have just nearly glimpsed a truth beyond my normal day to day experiences.

    Personally I feel these are states of coscious mind, similar to those acheivedd by experienced meditators, but just happened by chance in myself. I believe they are moments of conscious clarity and represent nothing of the supernatural whatsover. That is my interpretation as an atheist.

    I feel the religious individual is having the same experience that I have but jsut because they have "faith", they think it was God who produced this and not their own mind.

    Would anyone agree? Or would people here maybe just think God is trying to tempt me back to the Church!

    I too have had a couple of similar experiences where I've felt an overwhelming sense of calm and peace - I must add though that these seem to come after moments of letting my mind wander, especially after reading something scientifically 'deep' like 10-dimensional spacetime. Something just seems to click in my understanding or perception (even though I can't grasp what it is :p), or feeling a great sense of comfort with my place in the universe. Seems a bit esoterical even for my tastes!

    A scientific experience rather than a religious one!? I certainly wouldn't chalk it up to God and I agree with others that it has a lot to do with brain chemistry.

    That or my microwave was broken :)


  • #36
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    PDN wrote: »
    BTW, there is a book called "Eternity in their Hearts" by Don Richardson, a missionary to New Guinea. Richardson discovered that stone-age tribes with no previous contact with outside civilisation had indeed received visions of Jesus. However, I suspect that you will find that hard to believe since it will conflict with your presuppositions.

    Stone aged? This intrigues me quite a bit. Is there anywhere online I can read about this?


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  • #37
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Stone aged? This intrigues me quite a bit. Is there anywhere online I can read about this?
    I googled for this weeks ago (see this post) above, but AFAIR, all that I could find was very vague claims by Richardson that tribespeople believed there was a spiritual world of some kind and that mankind was imperfect in some way, but nothing that wasn't reasonably standard animist beliefs. Certainly, I couldn't find anything specific about Jesus or any part of normal christian dogma which is why PDN's initial claim is quite surprising, though the later silence is perhaps less so :)


  • #38
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Stone aged? This intrigues me quite a bit. Is there anywhere online I can read about this?

    About stone age tribes? Try some of these links:

    http://www.harald-melcher.de/haupt_eng/irian_eng.htm

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/prehistoric/reviews/04_05_hampton.htm

    http://www.janeresture.com/irian_jaya/index.htm


  • #39
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote: »
    I googled for this weeks ago (see this post) above, but AFAIR, all that I could find was very vague claims by Richardson that tribespeople believed there was a spiritual world of some kind and that mankind was imperfect in some way, but nothing that wasn't reasonably standard animist beliefs. Certainly, I couldn't find anything specific about Jesus or any part of normal christian dogma which is why PDN's initial claim is quite surprising, though the later silence is perhaps less so :)

    It's a long time since I read the book (before I knew how to google). If I remember correctly it spoke about different cultures that had various traditions and beliefs which paved the way for different tribes accepting Christianity, and also some pretty specific visions that tribal peoples had received prior to any contact with missionaries.


  • #40
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    If I remember correctly it spoke about different cultures that had various traditions and beliefs which paved the way for different tribes accepting Christianity,
    In terms of beliefs, christianity is quite a conventional religion which contains a few animist-derived ideas. So it's quite possible that somebody who's not familiar with these derivations or the anthropological literature would incorrectly assume that they're prefigurations. "Paving the way" is too non-specific to be able to draw any useful conclusions unfortunately.
    PDN wrote: »
    and also some pretty specific visions that tribal peoples had received prior to any contact with missionaries.
    That's the bit that I would like to hear more about. As above, the unprompted arrival of one religious belief within another is unattested, as far as I'm aware, in the literature.

    More info would be appreciated.


  • #41
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    PDN wrote: »
    It's a long time since I read the book (before I knew how to google). If I remember correctly it spoke about different cultures that had various traditions and beliefs which paved the way for different tribes accepting Christianity, and also some pretty specific visions that tribal peoples had received prior to any contact with missionaries.


    I see his other hobbies include a bit of Islam bashing.

    http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Koran-Don-Richardson/dp/0830731237


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  • #42
    all the stars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭all the stars


    I have had quite a few spiritual experiences -

    i've had all the calmness and peace as described by meditation, or when doing Reiki on myself or others.

    I've had the seeing of "visions" however in my case they were family who passed & other people i knew.

    I dont necessarily think they are religious - i think the more open you are to the spiritual elements around, the more you can tap into them.


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