Documentary on new school

man_no_plan · 30-10-2015 10:24pm

katydid wrote: »

The supreme irony is that the principal, Bernie Judge, is a former TUI Education and Research officer...

There's nothing ironic about following a circular letter, happened in every school.

man_no_plan · 30-10-2015 10:31pm

lostatsea wrote: »

I really was taken aback at the role of this principal. She has only 78 first years entering the school and so she can seriously make her mark. However, from the outset she appears clueless and always hovering on the edges of any activity. She had zero presence.

She brings in outside speakers to talk to her pupils about bullying. The principal should be the one taking charge of this session so the students can see clearly she means business and no bullying is going to take place in her school.

She brought in an outside speaker to talk to the staff about classroom discipline - nonsensical stuff about restorative justice. Again she should have been making her mark in this area. Pupils were already arriving late to class in the morning when they were already in the building. A good principal would be down amongst them in the morning ensuring this type of behaviour did not happen.

She was hands off on everything: Will we bring in a uniform or not? She decides not to and then obsesses about what they are wearing?
A teacher not getting paid was disgraceful. When he brought it up with her she was clueless. I'd say she was almost certainly to blame for not having the paperwork in place for such a situation to occur.
The timetable was not ready on the first day. This is disgraceful given she probably only has 4 first-year classes. How you start and the impressions you make in the first few days are crucial as to whether you succeed. I felt sorry for young pupils who were being called upon to make decisions that adults should have been taking.
The boy at the BOM meeting showed up their shambolic organisation by pointing out that no consultation was taking place with pupils despite their much publicised ideals.

You could see discipline gradually breaking down because the leadership was absent.

I always worry about teachers who leave the classroom and engage in research positions and then reappear in leadership roles later on.

I kind of agree but disagree. From looking at the first episode it seems that the ET policy is no uniform, consult with students etc. It seems she needs to go along with the previously decided policies and try to fit them around the school.

In another school the principal could decide all that stuff well in advance. You can't consult your parents and students until you have them I suppose.

The timetable is a joke not being ready to be fair.

seavill · 30-10-2015 10:39pm

I've only seen the first episode I presume the bit about pay is in the second episode but any teacher who changes schools (I think) or but definitely when they starts a job for first time ends up not being paid until end of October this has always been the case so not the fault of the principal just the useless department

derb12 · 30-10-2015 10:40pm

Agreed on useless leadership. I just watched the second episode there.

Students not coming to class on time?
Solution: it's the teachers' job to go down and collect them!

Students not adhering to the nonexistent dress code?
Solution: it's the teacher who has them first in the day who has to sort it!

student mitching from school?
Solution: Get one of the teachers to call the parents!

What exactly does the principal do?

Bobsammy · 30-10-2015 10:47pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

The Ward Report is far from a pain as you put it.
It has been one of the best things to happen for teachers in years. It has given teachers the right to a CID after two years, including those even covering career breaks and secondments.

From the schools point of view the interview after year one gives the school a full year to assess the ability of a teacher before giving them the CID which they will get now in just two years. I think it is a fair enough trade off.

I didn't say the Ward report wasn't useful, I said for many teachers reinterviewing for a job they were already doing was a pain. And it was, it was a very stressful process. There were ten teachers reinterviewed in my school and each one of us was rehired. I'm sure our principal had things he'd rather be doing.

Now having said all that I understand why it was brought in and I can see the positives of it. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where the opportunity to put another teacher in the position is very welcome. I'm also hopeful of finally getting a cid next September after seven years teaching which will make a huge difference to me.

Doesn't mean it wasn't a pain though.

joebloggs32 · 30-10-2015 11:06pm

Bobsammy wrote: »

I didn't say the Ward report wasn't useful, I said for many teachers reinterviewing for a job they were already doing was a pain. And it was, it was a very stressful process. There were ten teachers reinterviewed in my school and each one of us was rehired. I'm sure our principal had things he'd rather be doing.

Now having said all that I understand why it was brought in and I can see the positives of it. I'm sure there are plenty of cases where the opportunity to put another teacher in the position is very welcome. I'm also hopeful of finally getting a cid next September after seven years teaching which will make a huge difference to me.

Doesn't mean it wasn't a pain though.

I would suggest it is a lot less painful than being strung along for three or four years as was previously the case.

Glad to hear you and your colleagues got over the re-interview.

The real re-interview though is the year long audition you do for your job in the first year. If you pass that then your only threat should really be from a redeployment.

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 2:40am

katydid wrote: »

Your attitude to group work is very negative. It is ONE method of teaching, and is useful for certain situations. Teachers surely decide what method is best in any given context, and maybe use different ways to reinforce learning of the same material.

No, my attitude towards group work 'for the sake of group work' is negative.

I know it's in the air at the moment, i know that teachers feel they 'should/must' be doing it. I know that inspectors look for it 'to be done'.

But in the end I think it has to be learned and observed as to how other teachers do it rather than a teacher going off on their own bat and throwing desks together hoping that students will collaborate and come to a consensus etc.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:59am

Gebgbegb wrote: »

No, my attitude towards group work 'for the sake of group work' is negative.

I know it's in the air at the moment, i know that teachers feel they 'should/must' be doing it. I know that inspectors look for it 'to be done'.

But in the end I think it has to be learned and observed as to how other teachers do it rather than a teacher going off on their own bat and throwing desks together hoping that students will collaborate and come to a consensus etc.

Ok, fair enough. It sounded to me like you were saying teachers only did it to tick boxes.

But I don't understand what you mean about learning and observing how it's done; is it not an intrinsic part of teacher training, and of your own practice over the years? I can't imagine someone just doing it in the hope it will work - you would plan the activity, give guidelines to the learners, and oversee it to bring the threads together. Hardly rocket science.

seavill · 31-10-2015 11:07am

Got to watch the second episode last night, and I was slightly annoyed watching it.

Firstly the part about "the unique" part of ET school giving the students a say by having the student council - every school I have worked in for the last 10 years has had a student council.

I also felt overall the impression was given by the producers (by things like mentioned above) and comments by students and others, that ET schools were the only ones that were open and accepting to all faiths and nationalities.
I work in an area that would have a lot of families from different countries, especially asylum seekers, and everyone is welcome in our school. We are a catholic school but there is no mention of that in our enrollment policy, the only mention is that students must "accept" our ethos, not follow it, not be practicing, for Christmas we will have a general type service in the school for everyone, they will most likely be a church service also and those not of the faith can go home or make alternative arrangements.

I think it was poorly put together, to give off a particular impression of ET & all other schools, with all other schools being of a lower caliber than ET schools.
Adults/parents will have an experience of schools from 10-20 years ago and things have moved on signifigantly, it certainly wasn't a fair representation of what "faith" schools offer.

man_no_plan · 31-10-2015 11:12am

seavill wrote: »

Got to watch the second episode last night, and I was slightly annoyed watching it.

Firstly the part about "the unique" part of ET school giving the students a say by having the student council - every school I have worked in for the last 10 years has had a student council.

I also felt overall the impression was given by the producers (by things like mentioned above) and comments by students and others, that ET schools were the only ones that were open and accepting to all faiths and nationalities.
I work in an area that would have a lot of families from different countries, especially asylum seekers, and everyone is welcome in our school. We are a catholic school but there is no mention of that in our enrollment policy, the only mention is that students must "accept" our ethos, not follow it, not be practicing, for Christmas we will have a general type service in the school for everyone, they will most likely be a church service also and those not of the faith can go home or make alternative arrangements.

I think it was poorly put together, to give off a particular impression of ET & all other schools, with all other schools being of a lower caliber than ET schools.
Adults/parents will have an experience of schools from 10-20 years ago and things have moved on signifigantly, it certainly wasn't a fair representation of what "faith" schools offer.

I agree 100%. There is hardly a school in the country that has no diversity, the ET mantra is completely flawed, imo they have no business in second level education looking at the way they operate.

Kids need structure and boundaries and can grow within them, when there is any grey area they are very uneasy. consistency is the most important thing in a school.

RainyDay · 31-10-2015 11:50am

seavill wrote: »

I work in an area that would have a lot of families from different countries, especially asylum seekers, and everyone is welcome in our school. We are a catholic school but there is no mention of that in our enrollment policy, the only mention is that students must "accept" our ethos, not follow it, not be practicing, for Christmas we will have a general type service in the school for everyone, they will most likely be a church service also and those not of the faith can go home or make alternative arrangements.

Is the church service done on school time? If so, telling some kids to go home is far from inclusive. It would also be very, very unusual for a Catholic school not to prioritise baptised Catholics in their enrolment policy. Are you absolutely sure this is not the case?

seavill wrote: »

I think it was poorly put together, to give off a particular impression of ET & all other schools, with all other schools being of a lower caliber than ET schools.

I didn't see the show, but there does seem to be a bit of an uncritical, almost cult-ish glorification of ET ethos as being the way to go. I'm strongly in favour of getting religion out of schools, but I'm not sure that ET have been the best model for this. On my anecdotal experience of kids coming out of ET primary schools, some changes are definitely needed.

man_no_plan · 31-10-2015 2:03pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Is the church service done on school time? If so, telling some kids to go home is far from inclusive.

Can they go to it and not participate? I have been to all sorts of weddings and funerals I didn't feel brain washed or forced to accept the beliefs of the religion in question.

We have ceremonies ion my school to mark the graduation etc. but there is no mass,. more spiritual than religious although the local clergy from protestant and catholic churches are invited and usually attend. If we every get a rabbi they will be welcome too.

Is the ET stance that you shouldn't have anyone associated in any way with religion in or around your school?

katydid · 31-10-2015 2:14pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Can they go to it and not participate? I have been to all sorts of weddings and funerals I didn't feel brain washed or forced to accept the beliefs of the religion in question.

We have ceremonies ion my school to mark the graduation etc. but there is no mass,. more spiritual than religious although the local clergy from protestant and catholic churches are invited and usually attend. If we every get a rabbi they will be welcome too.

Is the ET stance that you shouldn't have anyone associated in any way with religion in or around your school?

Yes, they can go and not participate. But why should they? Going to a wedding or a funeral is different; it is a religious ceremony centering around people who are of the religious denomination, and who choose to hold their ceremony in a particular church.

A religious ceremony should not be held in school time in a publicly funded school, either in a church or in the school, if that school accepts students of different denominations, or of no religion.

Of course religion should have no part in state schools. It is divisive and exclusionary

katydid · 31-10-2015 2:39pm

seavill wrote: »

I also felt overall the impression was given by the producers (by things like mentioned above) and comd accepting to all faiths and nationalities.
I work in an area that would have a lot of families from different countries, especially asylum seekers, and everyone is welcome in our school. We are a catholic school but there is no mention of that in our enrollment policy, the only mention is that students must "accept" our ethos, not follow it, not be practicing, for Christmas we will have a general type service in the school for everyone, they will most likely be a church service also and those not of the faith can go home or make alternative arrangements.

We are a catholic school but.... that's the key to the problem. You graciously allow children of other religions into your school, as long as they accept your ethos. That is totally unacceptable when the state is paying your bills. All children, regardless of religion, should be able to attend their local school with no conditions attached.

When you have a church service and those non Roman Catholics who don't have to attend get to go home, you are separating them from their peers and creating exclusion.

Why can you not have your church service outside school hours? Teachers are paid to teach, not to attend church. And students are there to learn, not to attend church.

There are things to be ironed out in the ET system, but at least they don't impose sectarian religion on their students on the taxpayer's time.

katydid · 31-10-2015 2:45pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I agree 100%. There is hardly a school in the country that has no diversity, the ET mantra is completely flawed, imo they have no business in second level education looking at the way they operate.

Kids need structure and boundaries and can grow within them, when there is any grey area they are very uneasy. consistency is the most important thing in a school.

Most schools have diversity because they graciously accept those not of their particular faith, but they do it on their terms. Those they accept are excluded from certain school activities, which is contrary to all educational principles.

At least the ET system, from day one, excludes no child. That is not a small difference, it is a massive difference. A totally different mindset, and one we badly need in this country.

There's too much of this "aren't we great, we let Muslims into our school but sure, they don't have to go to the school mass" carry on. Every child in this country has a right to a full and equal education in their local school.

solerina · 31-10-2015 2:52pm

I really hope this school does not show what Irish schools will become in the years to come. It reminded me of the Educating.... Series from channel 4. No discipline, not very much structure etc. I would hate working in an environment like that. Kids can show their creativity, indivuality etc in normal schools, but this school was portrayed as being unique in this respect in some way.

Billy86 · 31-10-2015 3:38pm

RainyDay wrote: »

On my anecdotal experience of kids coming out of ET primary schools, some changes are definitely needed.

As someone who went to one (or rather back when they were under 'School Project') I'm curious as to why this is? Not having a go, just interested.

katydid · 31-10-2015 4:14pm

solerina wrote: »

I really hope this school does not show what Irish schools will become in the years to come. It reminded me of the Educating.... Series from channel 4. No discipline, not very much structure etc. I would hate working in an environment like that. Kids can show their creativity, indivuality etc in normal schools, but this school was portrayed as being unique in this respect in some way.

The documentary series from the UK don't feature schools like Educate Together. They are normal secondary schools with lots of rules, regulations and uniforms, just like most Irish schools. A lot of the disciplinary problems stem from the attempt to enforce petty rules, and a lot from a different attitude in the UK to teaching and learning - teachers are expected to pander to the lowest common denominator, subjects are taught at a lower standard, and assessments are much easier.

solerina · 31-10-2015 4:17pm

katydid wrote: »

The documentary series from the UK don't feature schools like Educate Together. They are normal secondary schools with lots of rules, regulations and uniforms, just like most Irish schools. A lot of the disciplinary problems stem from the attempt to enforce petty rules, and a lot from a different attitude in the UK to teaching and learning - teachers are expected to pander to the lowest common denominator, subjects are taught at a lower standard, and assessments are much easier.

Your version of normal and mine differ obviously, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to disagree. This educate together school and it's relaxed attitude is more similar to the schools shown on CHannel 4 then it is to any mainstream secondary school I have ever been in.

PlainP · 31-10-2015 4:22pm

Billy86 wrote: »

As someone who went to one (or rather back when they were under 'School Project') I'm curious as to why this is? Not having a go, just interested.

I think anecdotal is the key word here. In other words someone with an opinion with nothing to back it up with!

bigpink · 31-10-2015 4:32pm

Is the uniform not cheaper and better for parents and kids than having new clothes every day???

Sorry bigpink the uniform debate started to go around in circles (like it always does) so it's off-topic for this thread
There's a warning somewhere earlier on in the thread. But thanks for contributing, feel free to pick some other aspect of the documentary!
Mod

RainyDay · 31-10-2015 5:30pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

RainyDay wrote: »

Is the church service done on school time? If so, telling some kids to go home is far from inclusive.

Can they go to it and not participate? I have been to all sorts of weddings and funerals I didn't feel brain washed or forced to accept the beliefs of the religion in question.

In fairness, a personal decision by an adult to attend an event is very different for an 'everybody in here now' decision made for schoolchildren.

RainyDay · 31-10-2015 5:37pm

PlainP wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

As someone who went to one (or rather back when they were under 'School Project') I'm curious as to why this is? Not having a go, just interested.

I think anecdotal is the key word here. In other words someone with an opinion with nothing to back it up with!

Purely anecdotal indeed, and I'm keenly aware of the limitations of anecdotal. I know some super kids that have come through ET schools. However, there does seem to be a trend towards indiscipline and self-centredness. I've also come across a few kids who are quite unhappy in ET schools, with tears and traumas many mornings of the week about going to school.

man_no_plan · 31-10-2015 6:07pm

katydid wrote: »

.

There's too much of this "aren't we great, we let Muslims into our school but sure, they don't have to go to the school mass" carry on. Every child in this country has a right to a full and equal education in their local school.

You should become familiar with the expression 'in my opinion' and use it.

The point is that, aside from the ethos, there is nothing new I'm this school. It's not about being great and accepting Muslims. In the etb sector schools are non denominational. But that's not good enough for some.

Vocational schools and community colleges have a long history of serving the most marginalised people in Irish society in an inclusive way but they are still the poor relation when it comes to it.

I think that when it boils down to it these ET parents wouldn't send their kids to a tech end of story and 'choice' is a byword snobbery in dome cases.

Obviously in ongar there's a massive population etc but they want these ET schools everywhere. I think the solution is to change all current national schools to a non denominational model like the community national schools and remove religious instruction from all schools at all levels unless it is an exam subject like jc religious education perhaps.

JMB, CEIST, ETBI, ERST, COI, and on and on. What we need is a single system which works in the same way in all schools. Religion in a Saturday or after school is fine with me really.

My problem with ET, insofar as I have any problem, is that they think they're heroes liberating all children from religious oppression, there is such thing as coexistence and hiding differences dies nothing to promote tolerance.

We're all the same yay!! Until we leave school.

sunbeam · 31-10-2015 6:08pm

Interesting to see that Kishoge Community College which opened at the same time in Lucan has introduced a formal school uniform from this academic year. The school is under the patronage of Dublin & Dún Laoghaire ETB in formal partnership with Educate Together. According to the uniform policy on their website, it was brought in at the request of parents and students.

katydid · 31-10-2015 6:18pm

solerina wrote: »

Your version of normal and mine differ obviously, I am entitled to my opinion just as you are entitled to disagree. This educate together school and it's relaxed attitude is more similar to the schools shown on CHannel 4 then it is to any mainstream secondary school I have ever been in.

Relaxed attitude? I don't recall any relaxed attitude in the programmes I've seen. I've seen teachers endlessly picking up students on uneiform issues, for example. True, classroom management seems to be more chaotic, in that a lot of individual work is going on, and less "chalk and talk", so the teacher has to divide themselves up more during class time and seems to lack overall control in many cases. But it is nevertheless a constantly stressful situation for the teacher and the learners. Not much relaxing going on.

I've taught in secondary schools here and in the UK, and what we see on tv is exactly how it is in the three UK schools I've taught in, and not far off what I experienced in many Irish schools. The days of students sitting in rows listening to the teacher expounding at the top of the room are not gone, but it's no longer the default classroom norm.

katydid · 31-10-2015 6:32pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

You should become familiar with the expression 'in my opinion' and use it.

The point is that, aside from the ethos, there is nothing new I'm this school. It's not about being great and accepting Muslims. In the etb sector schools are non denominational. But that's not good enough for some.

Vocational schools and community colleges have a long history of serving the most marginalised people in Irish society in an inclusive way but they are still the poor relation when it comes to it.

I think that when it boils down to it these ET parents wouldn't send their kids to a tech end of story and 'choice' is a byword snobbery in dome cases.

Obviously in ongar there's a massive population etc but they want these ET schools everywhere. I think the solution is to change all current national schools to a non denominational model like the community national schools and remove religious instruction from all schools at all levels unless it is an exam subject like jc religious education perhaps.

JMB, CEIST, ETBI, ERST, COI, and on and on. What we need is a single system which works in the same way in all schools. Religion in a Saturday or after school is fine with me really.

My problem with ET, insofar as I have any problem, is that they think they're heroes liberating all children from religious oppression, there is such thing as coexistence and hiding differences dies nothing to promote tolerance.

We're all the same yay!! Until we leave school.

Where it's a matter of opinion, I would obviously use the phrase. But it's not a matter of opinion that non-Roman Catholics are tolerated in Roman Catholic schools, but suffer exclusion if they don't wish to participate in the religious indoctrination and practices that go on in school time. That is a fact.

Most schools in the ETB sector are NOT non-denominational, they are in theory multi denominational and are de facto default Roman Catholic. They have school masses and retreats, and prayers are often said in class. I discovered this to my dismay, having sent my daughter to what I though would be a multi denominational community college.

You're absolutely right, the default state school should be non-denominational and religious instruction should take place outside of school.

Liberal schools don't HIDE difference, they INCLUDE it. What the students learn is that there isn't one dominant cohort around which other groups must fit, as in religious schools. The Muslim or the atheist is as important as the Roman Catholic, not the person who must compromise, or exclude themselves from school activities. That is what is new about these schools, and it's a massive move for Irish education.

Billy86 · 31-10-2015 7:13pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Purely anecdotal indeed, and I'm keenly aware of the limitations of anecdotal. I know some super kids that have come through ET schools. However, there does seem to be a trend towards indiscipline and self-centredness. I've also come across a few kids who are quite unhappy in ET schools, with tears and traumas many mornings of the week about going to school.

Children crying about not wanting to go to school? No, really!?!?!?

Funny thing is I went to a Catholic school up to second class and was apparently like that there, but loved my time in the SP/ET school (Rathfarnham). I've kept loosely in touch with a few people who went there too, and I certainly wouldn't use those two words to describe them, by any stretch. I would actually say on average they are less likely to have either of those issues than those who went to standard national schools, probably in part due to the nature of the classroom.

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 7:22pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Children crying about not wanting to go to school? No, really!?!?!?

Funny thing is I went to a Catholic school up to second class and was apparently like that there, but loved my time in the SP/ET school (Rathfarnham). I've kept loosely in touch with a few people who went there too, and I certainly wouldn't use those two words to describe them, by any stretch. I would actually say on average they are less likely to have either of those issues than those who went to standard national schools, probably in part due to the nature of the classroom.

Or maybe this is all just personal accounts and you'll meet ejits and sound people whatever school you wind up in.

seavill · 31-10-2015 9:41pm

I think my point was missed earlier, as per usual.

The current system we have is that there are faith schools (the vast majority of schools) we have ETB schools C&C schools and then ET schools. The people working in faith schools cannot do anything about they system itself, but they do their best to work within it.

Someone asked was I sure we didn't have anything in our enrollment policy, yes I am positive I am on the board, not sure why someones statements have to constantly get questioned around here, its a recurring theme.

I mentioned the wording that students must "accept our ethos". In reality that means nothing. There is nothing to sign, there is no test to check are they accepting of it.
Because of the system we have a particular ethos. As a result we must hold religious ceremonies, yes some students might be "excluded" from those (by their own choice) hence being separated from their friends etc. but again we are trying our best to work around that, for example the open year mass, held in the church, was put at the end of the day so that those that did not want to attend could simply go home from school an hour early if they so wished. Hardly the end of the world, hardly having lasting damage on them where they will need counselling for it later in life. Is it ideal, no it is not, but again that is not the fault of those involved so there is no point in preaching about what should and should not be happening in Ireland, we are talking about what is happening on the ground.

My point was, the impression was given, in the documentary, that ET schools are the only types of schools in Ireland that are accepting of other faiths and nationalities. My annoyance has come from the fact that any school I have worked in has been the exact same (barring the religious elements, as I said due to the system itself, not the fault of the teachers or principal). And in reality those religious ceremonies are 3 per year. I already explained that for Christmas an open celebration of different cultures and faiths is held before the "Catholic church" element.

My particular anger was with the part about ET schools leading the way with Student Councils, a completely wrong statement.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:05pm

seavill wrote: »

I think my point was missed earlier, as per usual.

The current system we have is that there are faith schools (the vast majority of schools) we have ETB schools C&C schools and then ET schools. The people working in faith schools cannot do anything about they system itself, but they do their best to work within it.

Someone asked was I sure we didn't have anything in our enrollment policy, yes I am positive I am on the board, not sure why someones statements have to constantly get questioned around here, its a recurring theme.

I mentioned the wording that students must "accept our ethos". In reality that means nothing. There is nothing to sign, there is no test to check are they accepting of it.
Because of the system we have a particular ethos. As a result we must hold religious ceremonies, yes some students might be "excluded" from those (by their own choice) hence being separated from their friends etc. but again we are trying our best to work around that, for example the open year mass, held in the church, was put at the end of the day so that those that did not want to attend could simply go home from school an hour early if they so wished. Hardly the end of the world, hardly having lasting damage on them where they will need counselling for it later in life. Is it ideal, no it is not, but again that is not the fault of those involved so there is no point in preaching about what should and should not be happening in Ireland, we are talking about what is happening on the ground.

My point was, the impression was given, in the documentary, that ET schools are the only types of schools in Ireland that are accepting of other faiths and nationalities. My annoyance has come from the fact that any school I have worked in has been the exact same (barring the religious elements, as I said due to the system itself, not the fault of the teachers or principal). And in reality those religious ceremonies are 3 per year. I already explained that for Christmas an open celebration of different cultures and faiths is held before the "Catholic church" element.

My particular anger was with the part about ET schools leading the way with Student Councils, a completely wrong statement.

Of course the people that work in the faith schools have no choice but to work in the system. It's the system that's wrong. My point is that saying that non-Roman Catholics are welcomed in RC schools is not really addressing the situation - they are tolerated within a system, and have to either exclude themselves or participate in indoctrination of beliefs they or their parents don't hold, and that's not something that should be supported - or financed - by the state. To say they are excluded "by their own choice" is disingenuous - choosing not to attend religious indoctrination or rites they don't subscribe to is not a choice they should have to make in a modern, democratic society in an educational system paid for by the taxpayer.

No need to be so dramatic - it may not be the end of the world or have lasting damage, but it is exclusion, however you paint it, and education should be about inclusion, not exclusion, wherever possible. It is telling certain groups in our society that their beliefs are less important and relevant than others. Three times a year or thirty times a year, the difference is still being made and exclusion is still happening. And it's not just three times a year - the discrimination happens in every religion class, where the textbooks used are unapologetically Roman Catholic in bias.

There is a difference between being "accepting" of other faiths within the context of a religious school, and accepting all faiths on the same basis in the context of a non or multi denominational school. Religious schools accept other faiths on their terms, as long as the members agree to accept their ethos. ET schools accept all students on an equal basis, and religion is not a basis for forming the ethos of the school.

seavill · 31-10-2015 10:14pm

katydid wrote: »

non-Roman Catholics are welcomed in RC schools

This is simply my point, a point that was not fairly put across in the documentary.
The documentary was not properly balanced in my opinion.

I am not discussing the system or anything else, this thread is about the documentary, the rest is probably a thread in itself rather than part of this one.

I find it very interesting that the uniform issue or "dress code" issue was so prevalent. I'm not trying to discuss the rights or wrongs of uniforms, just that it must have been a big issue in this school, for so much time to be given over to it in the documentary. I mean the documentary has squeezed 9 months into 100 minutes but so much time was devoted to this issue.

It is amazing how clever some of the kids were in their comments, that restricting the dress code to the extent it appears the school were doing, is akin to having a uniform in the first place.
It is clear from the programme that having a dress code is difficult, as one of the teachers explained, the fashion will change from year to year so it's not as clear cut as I think the school management thought it was going to be initially.

Again I'm not trying to open the uniform issue here just comments in relation to the documentary itself, not the issue.

SligoBrewer · 31-10-2015 10:22pm

katydid wrote: »

My point is that saying that non-Roman Catholics are welcomed in RC schools is not really addressing the situation - they are tolerated within a system, and have to either exclude themselves or participate in indoctrination of beliefs they or their parents don't hold, and that's not something that should be supported - or financed - by the state.

You've said a few things in your posts katydid that have upset me. To say that I "tolerate" non RC kids in my class is just plain wrong. To accuse my colleagues up and down the country of doing the same is also wrong.

katydid wrote: »

.
And it's not just three times a year - the discrimination happens in every religion class, where the textbooks used are unapologetically Roman Catholic in bias.

I suggest you check out the Junior Certificate Religious Education exam. It's a great syllabus IMO.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:29pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You've said a few things in your posts katydid that have upset me. To say that I "tolerate" non RC kids in my class is just plain wrong. To accuse my colleagues up and down the country of doing the same is also wrong.

I suggest you check out the Junior Certificate Religious Education exam. It's a great syllabus IMO.

I said SCHOOLS tolerate non Roman Catholics. I said nothing about individual teachers. Teachers are just doing their job - it's just unfortunate, or rather a scandal - that they are being paid by the state to support exclusion and indoctrination.

I am familiar with the syllabus; it is the course materials that is the problem. In my daughter's school, she made me aware of the sectarian nature of the textbooks. When I complained, I was told they are the only books available. I suggested the teachers devise their own, non-sectarian material, the idea was dismissed out of hand.

man_no_plan · 31-10-2015 10:34pm

katydid wrote: »

I said SCHOOLS tolerate non Roman Catholics. I said nothing about individual teachers. Teachers are just doing their job - it's just unfortunate, or rather a scandal - that they are being paid by the state to support exclusion and indoctrination.

I am familiar with the syllabus; it is the course materials that is the problem. In my daughter's school, she made me aware of the sectarian nature of the textbooks. When I complained, I was told they are the only books available. I suggested the teachers devise their own, non-sectarian material, the idea was dismissed out of hand.

Sectarian? How?

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:38pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Sectarian? How?

It's a few years now, but I remember one line was "What do we believe happens at mass" or something along those lines. There were others, I can't remember exactly - I remember my daughter coming home very angry about it. It was a few years ago, I'd be delighted to hear they have changed it, but I doubt it.

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 10:42pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

You've said a few things in your posts katydid that have upset me. To say that I "tolerate" non RC kids in my class is just plain wrong. To accuse my colleagues up and down the country of doing the same is also wrong.

I dont think she implied that it was an in-class issue, I think the implication was that it was an in-school issue, there's a subtle but important difference. It's more evident at whole-school gatherings (masses/ceremonies etc).

SligoBrewer wrote: »

I suggest you check out the Junior Certificate Religious Education exam. It's a great syllabus IMO.

There's also a bit of a difference between an exam/syllabus and the approach that book writers/publishers take on.

man_no_plan · 31-10-2015 10:43pm

katydid wrote: »

It's a few years now, but I remember one line was "What do we believe happens at mass" or something along those lines. There were others, I can't remember exactly - I remember my daughter coming home very angry about it. It was a few years ago, I'd be delighted to hear they have changed it, but I doubt it.

Is that sectarian or asking what Catholics believe? Sure you learn that in JC history wher you're doing the reformation. I suppose that should be off the course in schools too?

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:45pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

There's also a bit of a difference between an exam/syllabus and the approach that book writers/publishers take on.

Teachers should be more vocal in insisting on better material, but they don't seem to see it as an issue

byhookorbycrook · 31-10-2015 10:45pm

Textbooks must be approved by the DES for use in Irish schools so it's a DES issue.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:46pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is that sectarian or asking what Catholics believe? Sure you learn that in JC history wher you're doing the reformation. I suppose that should be off the course in schools too?

The point is the word WE. Assuming all the readers are Roman Catholic.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:47pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Textbooks must be approved by the DES for use in Irish schools so it's a DES issue.

Yep, and they don't seem to see sectarian language as an issue in religious studies textbooks. Which says it all, really

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 10:49pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

Is that sectarian or asking what Catholics believe? Sure you learn that in JC history wher you're doing the reformation. I suppose that should be off the course in schools too?

There's a bit of a subtle difference between "What do Catholics believe" and "What do we believe". The implication being that everyone reading the book is catholic... so really it is indoctrination. Rather than the 'study of religion', it's 'the study of other religions by us as catholics'.

But i don't know, I havn't read the book myself and it might be out of print now.

katydid · 31-10-2015 10:52pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

There's a bit of a subtle difference between "What do Catholics believe" and "What do we believe". The implication being that everyone reading the book is catholic... so really it is indoctrination. Rather than the 'study of religion', it's 'the study of other religions by us as catholics'.

But i don't know, I havn't read the book myself and it might be out of print now.

Hopefully. What shocked me at the time was the attitude of the teacher. She wasn't bothered in the slightest, although there were 3 non Roman Catholics in the class, and when I suggested she devise her own material (as I, as a teacher in FE have to do) she dismissed the idea.

evolving_doors · 31-10-2015 11:03pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Textbooks must be approved by the DES for use in Irish schools so it's a DES issue.

Well I suppose it's everyones issue if it's indoctrination pretending to be 'the study of all religions and none'. Once everyone is on board with it (kids and parents etc) then I'd say ya sure go for it. Although if you were a parent of a different faith or none you might be wondering what this 'we business' thing.

But anyway we're hanging our hat on 1 word.

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:07pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Well I suppose it's everyones issue if it's indoctrination pretending to be 'the study of all religions and none'. Once everyone is on board with it (kids and parents etc) then I'd say ya sure go for it. Although if you were a parent of a different faith or none you might be wondering what this 'we business' thing.

But anyway we're hanging our hat on 1 word.

One very important word. But there were more instances, I just can't remember them.

seavill · 31-10-2015 11:19pm

How long ago was this? Is the same book still used today?

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:22pm

seavill wrote: »

How long ago was this? Is the same book still used today?

About eight years ago. I don't know if it's still in use.

derb12 · 31-10-2015 11:53pm

My dd's JC religion book defined atheism as "the denial of the existence of God" - I thought that was pretty scary and I personally don't think it belongs in any type of educational text.
However, I don't see why we can't secularise the system without going all "we're so innovative", "we want to do something new in education", "calling teachers by their first names shows that we are all equal", "wearing a uniform suppresses individuality" rhetoric.

katydid · 31-10-2015 11:58pm

derb12 wrote: »

My dd's JC religion book defined atheism as "the denial of the existence of God" - I thought that was pretty scary and I personally don't think it belongs in any type of educational text.
However, I don't see why we can't secularise the system without going all "we're so innovative", "we want to do something new in education", "calling teachers by their first names shows that we are all equal", "wearing a uniform suppresses individuality" rhetoric.

You are being as judgemental as that textbook by assuming that using first names and not wearing a uniform are just "rhetoric". For some people, they are a very important facet of a certain view of education.

Documentary on new school

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