Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

mike65 · 27-05-2012 7:17pm

FSG want a structure that means when a manager is sacked/nicked/retires/drops dead from frustration that the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bathwater.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 7:32pm

djPSB wrote: »

Thought I was involved in the goal? Clip doesn't show it.

whatawaster · 27-05-2012 7:46pm

djPSB wrote: »

If Rodgers is a serious contender for the Liverpool job, I'm surprised that Swansea seem to have sealed the signing of Sigurdsson.

I would imagine, the deal would be heavily dependent on Rodgers been at Swansea next season.

They have a structure in place above and beyond the manager. I believe they have a DOF.

If Rodgers is leaving and that transfer is going ahead it is a perfect illustration of how a director of football can help a club

Revolution9 · 27-05-2012 7:48pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Thought I was involved in the goal? Clip doesn't show it.

The pass at 1:02 was the assist for Young's goal.

djPSB · 27-05-2012 7:52pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Thought I was involved in the goal? Clip doesn't show it.

1.02 I think.

Also, noticed that Carroll has been playing more like a number 10 than a number 9 lately.

Coming short, holding up the ball and linking the play.

djPSB · 27-05-2012 7:54pm

whatawaster wrote: »

They have a structure in place above and beyond the manager. I believe they have a DOF.

If Rodgers is leaving and that transfer is going ahead it is a perfect illustration of how a director of football can help a club

The point I am getting is that, Sigurdsson would wait until after the managerial mess was sorted out before he signed.

If anything, it's an indication to me that Rodgers is staying at Swansea.

G.K. · 27-05-2012 7:58pm

I think wou misunderstood waw's post.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 8:03pm

Liverpool scouts spotted in the crowd at Old Trafford tonight.
£14m pound offer for William Ferrell in the offing.

Glico Man · 27-05-2012 8:13pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Liverpool scouts spotted in the crowd at Old Trafford tonight.
£14m pound offer for William Ferrell in the offing.

He'd be good in the anchorman role alright

BERBA · 27-05-2012 8:21pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

£14m pound offer for William Ferrell in the offing.

He's old school

klose · 27-05-2012 8:23pm

Sign up sergio pizzorno!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 8:25pm

whippedcream wrote: »

Sign up sergio pizzorno!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's 31 but would be a good replacement for Bellamy on lower wages.

spockety · 27-05-2012 8:30pm

Has anyone got any public pronouncements or direct quotes from FSG which give credence to the assertions that are being made on the type of structure they want in place, the type of manager they want in place, the role of that manager, etc?

There is an awful lot of things being said with very high levels of confidence.

Tusky · 27-05-2012 8:30pm

EchoO wrote: »

They're over-complicating the selection process and the management structure. An exercise in trying to reinvent the wheel. Just hire the best manager available, Rafa or Van Gaal, then give them the funds to improve the squad. Simple.

It's clearly not that simple. They are at the beginning of a long term plan and are taking their time to put everything into place. The time to criticise is not now - it's in a year or two or three IF the plan doesn't work.

People have an opinion on everything these days. For example, there was tonnes of people complaining that the club, momentarily, didn't have a Director of Communications. I would hazard a guess that most fans previously knew nothing about that role or who was in charge of it.

Fans need to step away from their keyboard and let things happen before giving out. By all means, return to your keyboards, and criticise if you don't like what you see, but nit-picking about every little detail of a managerial selection process is fairly pathetic.

Who on this forum actually knows anything about managerial section processes and how they work anyway? Because I certainly don't. I know bits from what I read in the media, like everyone else, but very little about the inner workings or what goes on behind the scenes.

klose · 27-05-2012 8:30pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

He's 31 but would be a good replacement for Bellamy on lower wages.

Thats the kind of finishing we've been lacking all season, he looks like good craic too.

Turtyturd · 27-05-2012 8:41pm

BERBA wrote: »

He's old school

Only a semi pro though, so it would be stranger than fiction if he signed. However I heard his Step Brothers aint bad players. How long is this going to go on for?

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 8:46pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

Only a semi pro though, so it would be stranger than fiction if he signed. However I heard his Step Brothers aint bad players. How long is this going to go on for?

He's old school.

dubdamo · 27-05-2012 8:47pm

mike65 wrote: »

FSG want a structure that means when a manager is sacked/nicked/retires/drops dead from frustration that the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bathwater.

By the same token if the DOF is sacked/nicked etc then does the baby not get thrown out with the bath water. The more levels of management you have the less accountability there is . Team is playing s!!!!te after a year, that is put to the manager who complains'i only work with the players I'm given'. DOF blames the manager for poor team selection, motivation , tactics etc. On the other hand you hire a manager, give him an idea of his transfer budget and then tell him what's expected, top 4 finish or whatever and he lives or dies by that record. I imagine any manager that's worth his salt would prefer the latter,(Rafa for example)

BERBA · 27-05-2012 8:47pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

Only a semi pro though, so it would be stranger than fiction if he signed. However I heard his Step Brothers aint bad players. How long is this going to go on for?

Wouldnt he be from Land of the Lost if he signed for ye? would all end in a bucket of blood.

paddy kerins · 27-05-2012 8:52pm

BERBA wrote: »

Wouldnt he be from Land of the Lost if he signed for ye? would all end in a bucket of blood.

Talladega nights!!

djPSB · 27-05-2012 8:53pm

Tusky wrote: »

It's clearly not that simple. They are at the beginning of a long term plan and are taking their time to put everything into place. The time to criticise is not now - it's in a year or two or three IF the plan doesn't work.

People have an opinion on everything these days. For example, there was tonnes of people complaining that the club, momentarily, didn't have a Director of Communications. I would hazard a guess that most fans previously knew nothing about that role or who was in charge of it.

Fans need to step away from their keyboard and let things happen before giving out. By all means, return to your keyboards, and criticise if you don't like what you see, but nit-picking about every little detail of a managerial selection process is fairly pathetic.

Who on this forum actually knows anything about managerial section processes and how they work anyway? Because I certainly don't. I know bits from what I read in the media, like everyone else, but very little about the inner workings or what goes on behind the scenes.

I don't but walking down a public street with a candidate for the job is a big no-no!

djPSB · 27-05-2012 9:09pm

Luke Edwards ‏@LukeEdwardsTele
I've a feeling Roberto Martinez will disappear quite quickly from #lfc hunt for a new manager. Hearing search remains wide and far reaching

Ardent · 27-05-2012 9:34pm

Tusky wrote: »

I wish people would give the owners a bit of a chance to do their thing. People are full of criticism but the reality is they have got most of the decisions right so far.

They sacked Hodgson (correct decision) and brought in Dalglish to steady the ship (great decision). This proved such a shrewd move that Dalglish was offered a longer contract. Probably not the right thing to do, but hard to blame them for it as everyone was calling for him to get the job (myself included). It hasn't worked out and they have sacked Dalglish (decision will be judged based on what happens next) and Comolli (correct decision - awful transfer business since he came to club).

We are now at the point that the owners wanted to be at when they first came to the club. Starting fresh. I'm excited to see what they do but many seem keen to criticize everything before it even happens.

Well said.

mike65 · 27-05-2012 9:58pm

Do you think Kasabian would take Stuart Downing for Sergio Pizzorno?

ush · 27-05-2012 10:01pm

spockety wrote: »

Has anyone got any public pronouncements or direct quotes from FSG which give credence to the assertions that are being made on the type of structure they want in place, the type of manager they want in place, the role of that manager, etc?

There is an awful lot of things being said with very high levels of confidence.

No direct quotes from FSG. They don't owe us that. We might owe them some trust and patience.

I think the Barnes interview, where he spoke about an overriding club philosophy and structure à la Barcelona, was a PR-exercise from the owners. Thats the closest you'll come to the owners directly telling us what they're at.

They could think that telling the world their plans could have a negative impact on the interviewing process. Doesn't matter anyway. They own the club. They listened to the fans last time. That got them 8th.

What does worry me from both a communications angle is the talk about Martinez holding a press conference, or releasing a statement on Tuesday, about his decision. I can accept the risk with appointing a manager with limited success. But having to publicly wait for his decision doesn't feel right.

ush · 27-05-2012 10:07pm

djPSB wrote: »

Luke Edwards ‏@LukeEdwardsTele
I've a feeling Roberto Martinez will disappear quite quickly from #lfc hunt for a new manager. Hearing search remains wide and far reaching

Could explain the whole Martinez telling us all about his future plans on tuesday thing. He wants to look like he's turning down LFC, rather the job going to someone else after being being pictured with his prospective employer.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 10:13pm

mike65 wrote: »

Do you think Kasabian would take Stuart Downing for Sergio Pizzorno?

Think we'd need to sweeten the deal. Another £20m might do it.

El Inho · 27-05-2012 10:54pm

paddy kerins wrote: »

Talladega nights!!

would he not be more used to playing saturday night live?

plus himself and andy would be trouble together spending nights at the roxbury.

mike65 · 27-05-2012 10:56pm

djPSB wrote: »

Luke Edwards ‏@LukeEdwardsTele
I've a feeling Roberto Martinez will disappear quite quickly from #lfc hunt for a new manager. Hearing search remains wide and far reaching

telegraph going with Rodgers interview in tomorrows paper They also name Van Marwijk as being interested as manager but no contact made. While some Lancashire paper is backing up the above from Luke Edwards (ie they probably saw the tweet as well!)

Fromthetrees · 27-05-2012 10:58pm

Possibilities wrote: »

Of course Rafa had unlimited funds to sign all the strikers in the whole wide world!

Of course he didn't but he did spend money, he did buy 80 players, and he did have 6 years to win a premiership. He still spent 40 million on players in his last season, to not buy a striker from that money was madness. You can't win a premiership with one proven striker, that's it.
Liverpool need to move forward not backwards.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 11:02pm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

Of course he didn't but he did spend money, he did buy 80 players, and he did have 6 years to win a premiership. He still spent 40 million on players in his last season, to not buy a striker from that money was madness. You can't win a premiership with one proven striker, that's it.
Liverpool need to move forward not backwards.

Just no.

2008/09:
IN: £7m Dossena; £3.5m Cavalieri; £1.5m N’gog; £19m Keane; £8m Riera; Free Degen. Total: £39m.
OUT: £4m Riise; £11m Crouch; £2.25m Guthrie; £3.25m Carson; £16m Keane; Free Kewell; Undisclosed Le Tallec, Finnan, Hobbs. Total: £36.5m.
NET SPEND: £2.5m.
PREMIER LEAGUE: 2nd

2009/10:
IN: £17.5m Johnson; £17.1m Aquilani; £2m Kyrgiakos; £160,000 Ayala; £1.5m Maxi Rodriguez. Total: £38.26m.
OUT: £250,000 Anderson; £3m Leto; £3.5m Arbeloa; £30m Alonso; £4.4m Dossena; £1.5m Voronin; Free Pennant, Miki Roque. Total: £42.65m.
NET SPEND: -£4.39m.

His transfer budget was negative in the last two seasons.

Fromthetrees · 27-05-2012 11:16pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Just no.

2008/09:
IN: £7m Dossena; £3.5m Cavalieri; £1.5m N’gog; £19m Keane; £8m Riera; Free Degen. Total: £39m.
OUT: £4m Riise; £11m Crouch; £2.25m Guthrie; £3.25m Carson; £16m Keane; Free Kewell; Undisclosed Le Tallec, Finnan, Hobbs. Total: £36.5m.
NET SPEND: £2.5m.
PREMIER LEAGUE: 2nd
2009/10:
IN: £17.5m Johnson; £17.1m Aquilani; £2m Kyrgiakos; £160,000 Ayala; £1.5m Maxi Rodriguez. Total: £38.26m.
OUT: £250,000 Anderson; £3m Leto; £3.5m Arbeloa; £30m Alonso; £4.4m Dossena; £1.5m Voronin; Free Pennant, Miki Roque. Total: £42.65m.
NET SPEND: -£4.39m.

His transfer budget was negative in the last two seasons.

What do you mean no?

I said he bought 80 players in 6 years, which he did.
I then said he spent 40 million in his last season, which he did.
If he was under orders that he had to sell to buy, than that's what he had to do. 35 million on Johnson and Aquilani my arse, wanting to challenge for the title and he was relying on Torres to stay injury free for the season, my arse, the priority that summer was to buy a striker, he had 40 million to get one, he didn't.
Most clubs run on tight enough budgets bar Chelski and City, that's it.
Should we get Rafa back for another 6 years?
and then if Liverpool don't win a title go sure at least he had a fair crack of the whip?
A half dozen years is enough time in my book.

djfitzerjnr · 27-05-2012 11:25pm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

What do you mean no?
I said he bought 80 players in 6 years, which he did.
I then said he spent 40 million in his last season, which he did.
If he was under orders that he had to sell to buy, than that's what he had to do. 35 million on Johnson and Aquilani my arse, wanting to challenge for the title and he was relying on Torres to stay injury free for the season, my arse, the priority that summer was to buy a striker, he had 40 million to get one, he didn't.
Most clubs run on tight enough budgets bar Chelski and City, that's it.
Should we get Rafa back for another 6 years?
and then if Liverpool don't win a title go sure at least he had a fair crack of the whip?
A half dozen years is enough time in my book.

How many of them 80 were youth players? Youth players that have helped rejuvenate our academy. It's only now that it is showing the benefits.

How many of them players were bought as squad players who were then sold on for profits?

The summer of 09/10, we all know is the summer we thought we were going to push on and win the league. If you bothered to look up stuff on Rafa, you will see that he had to sell Alonso, and asked the owners to replace him with Aquilani and Jovetic. Jovetic could play behind the striker or upfront if needs be. He had to choose Aqua as Roma owed us money, as with Pompey and Johnson.

Just look at this team of Rafa transfers and don't tell me that it would not challenge, even still today.

Reina

Johnson----Agger----Skrtel----Arbeloa

Lucas----Masch---Alonso

Kuyt

Torres

Yossi

Kerrigooney · 27-05-2012 11:26pm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

A half dozen years is enough time in my book.

More than enough.

Especially when you`re starting to go backwards again.

Which we were.

Unfortunately we`re still going backwards.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 11:26pm

Blah blah blah, net spend, you may as well just say that and nothing else.
No one wins the title threading water with their transfer budget season after season, they might get away with it if they had the best squad already but even then they just wouldn't attempt it.

spockety · 27-05-2012 11:28pm

Is there anything other than Rafa's failings which may have contributed to the lack of a league title between 2005 and 2010?

Anything at all? Anyone?

Is there anything needed over the next 5 years, other than the right managerial appointment, to ensure a league title for Liverpool?

Anything at all? Anyone?

mike65 · 27-05-2012 11:35pm

Luck? Money?

spockety · 27-05-2012 11:41pm

mike65 wrote: »

Luck? Money?

Aye.

So if either of those things are lacking, and continue to lack, does it make sense to fire a manager?

What I am driving at here is that for Liverpool to have won a league between 2005 and 2010 would have required hopeless over achievement and/or influences beyond the control of any manager.

With man city the new chelsea, that will probably remain the case for the next 5 years. We need a manager who has demonstrated an ability to succeed against odds and against vastly superior resources.

And even then its highly unlikely, bordering on remote.

Unless fsg turn out to be the new Abu Dhabi.

Fromthetrees · 27-05-2012 11:41pm

djfitzerjnr wrote: »

How many of them 80 were youth players? Youth players that have helped rejuvenate our academy. It's only now that it is showing the benefits.

How many of them players were bought as squad players who were then sold on for profits?

The summer of 09/10, we all know is the summer we thought we were going to push on and win the league. If you bothered to look up stuff on Rafa, you will see that he had to sell Alonso, and asked the owners to replace him with Aquilani and Jovetic. Jovetic could play behind the striker or upfront if needs be. He had to choose Aqua as Roma owed us money, as with Pompey and Johnson.

Just look at this team of Rafa transfers and don't tell me that it would not challenge, even still today.
Reina
Johnson----Agger----Skrtel----Arbeloa
Lucas----Masch---Alonso
Kuyt
Torres
Yossi

Yeah, that's fine, many of his transfers were youth players but he had a lot of marque signings as well, just like any manager who's at a club for 6 years.
Actually Alonso left because Rafa had tried to get rid of him the season before, if he hadn't done that he might have had even less money to spend that summer just to say, still think he could have found money for a striker.
Looking at the team above it seems all you really need is a second striker.;)

Fromthetrees · 27-05-2012 11:48pm

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Blah blah blah, net spend, you may as well just say that and nothing else.

I think it's your making the point about net spend, I'm saying he still had money to buy players in spite of a net spend.

No one wins the title threading water with their transfer budget season after season, they might get away with it if they had the best squad already but even then they just wouldn't attempt it.

I know, that's why Arsenal haven't won it in so long and the big spenders do. I just think Liverpool had the capability to make a real push with smarter signings that summer, I think Rafa failed in them that year.

Jesus Wept · 27-05-2012 11:48pm

Fromthetrees wrote: »

What do you mean no?
I said he bought 80 players in 6 years, which he did.
I then said he spent 40 million in his last season, which he did.
If he was under orders that he had to sell to buy, than that's what he had to do. 35 million on Johnson and Aquilani my arse, wanting to challenge for the title and he was relying on Torres to stay injury free for the season, my arse, the priority that summer was to buy a striker, he had 40 million to get one, he didn't.
Most clubs run on tight enough budgets bar Chelski and City, that's it.
Should we get Rafa back for another 6 years?
and then if Liverpool don't win a title go sure at least he had a fair crack of the whip?
A half dozen years is enough time in my book.

Fair enough, perhaps he could have unearthed some bargains that summer and managed to pull it out of the bag however it was against the odds, and that is before one factors in the utterly mental working conditions he was operating under.

GEM_13 · 27-05-2012 11:54pm

There is a very interesting piece on The Swiss Ramble website.Go to it and click on Liverpool down the left hand side.

I'm not sure if it has been seen on here before but it is well worth the read if you haven't seen it.It's a lot of stuff you will probably have seen before in bits and pieces.When you read it as one piece,it will have you wondering how it got so bad.

It does,however,make it crystal clear why we have fallen to where we are now-any club would find it hard to compete in the circumstances we are in.

mike65 · 27-05-2012 11:57pm

Linked that here weeks ago, like all SR articles very interesting for digging down into the numbers.

Its Klopp!
http://www.oddschecker.com/football/football-specials/liverpool-specials/next-permanent-manager

GEM_13 · 28-05-2012 12:05am

I noticed the one you linked about Martinez alright and that brought me to notice the other one.

Very frustrating to read but outlines why we have been struggling.Excellent read.

Fromthetrees · 28-05-2012 12:07am

Andy Carroll wrote: »

Fair enough, perhaps he could have unearthed some bargains that summer and managed to pull it out of the bag however it was against the odds, and that is before one factors in the utterly mental working conditions he was operating under.

He was under pressure and to be fair to him he generally bought and sold quiet well, I just remember that summers pre season friendlies and looking at the first goal scorer markets and it was like Torres and that was it, totally freaked me out, N'gog was second choice and he was around 20 like.

TOTAL BOUGHT: £229,340,000.
TOTAL SOLD: £151,000,000.
TOTAL NET SPEND: £78,340,000.

His net spend actually looks brilliant, thinking that Torres is included in the bought section and not in the sold section, knock 50 off the 78 milllion, then factor in what Liverpool will sell Maxi, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas even Kuyt and maybe a few others and he actually will have turned a tidy profit for Liverpool during his reign. Seems like he earned his multi-million payoff in the end.:P
I still think he should have bought a striker though, never forgive him for that.

wcarey1975 · 28-05-2012 12:08am

Fromthetrees wrote: »

He was under pressure and to be fair to him he generally bought and sold quiet well, I just remember that summers pre season friendlies and looking at the first goal scorer markets and it was like Torres and that was it, totally freaked me out, N'gog was second choice and he was around 20 like.

TOTAL BOUGHT: £229,340,000.
TOTAL SOLD: £151,000,000.
TOTAL NET SPEND: £78,340,000.

His net spend actually looks brilliant, thinking that Torres is included in the bought section and not in the sold section, knock 50 off the 78 milllion, then factor in what Liverpool will sell Maxi, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas even Kuyt and maybe a few others and he actually will have turned a tidy profit for Liverpool during his reign. Seems like he earned his multi-million payoff in the end.:P
I still think he should have bought a striker though, never forgive him for that.

Dont forget to include the Masch money also.

Jesus Wept · 28-05-2012 12:27am

Dave Whelan keeps talking.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/wigan-will-spend-big-money-to-try-850354

He looks like Andy Gray's Great Granddad. :-/

Hannibal · 28-05-2012 12:41am

Fromthetrees wrote: »

He was under pressure and to be fair to him he generally bought and sold quiet well, I just remember that summers pre season friendlies and looking at the first goal scorer markets and it was like Torres and that was it, totally freaked me out, N'gog was second choice and he was around 20 like.

TOTAL BOUGHT: £229,340,000.
TOTAL SOLD: £151,000,000.
TOTAL NET SPEND: £78,340,000.

His net spend actually looks brilliant, thinking that Torres is included in the bought section and not in the sold section, knock 50 off the 78 milllion, then factor in what Liverpool will sell Maxi, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas even Kuyt and maybe a few others and he actually will have turned a tidy profit for Liverpool during his reign. Seems like he earned his multi-million payoff in the end.:P
I still think he should have bought a striker though, never forgive him for that.

the figures I have off the reliable LFC history are.

Total bought: £231,651,000 on 58 players
Total sold: £161,700,000 on 72 players
Total net spend: £69,951,000
Average net per season: £11,658,500

Although 58 players bought seems a lot for six seasons you have to list off the likes of Hobbs, Idrizaj, Roque, Barragan, Martin, Ajdarevic, Brouwer, Duran, Nemeth, Anderson, San Jose, Ayala and Dalla Valle who although very small fees were paid they were all young players and apart from a few games each for Ayala and Hobbs none made it to our first team. Although Hobbs, San Jose, Barragan, Anderson and Ayala were sold on for a considerable profit.

You have to factor in Champs League success 2005 and runners up in 2007, semi finalists in 2008 and quarter finallists in 2009 and Europa semi finalists in 2010 because of the prize money and TV money that was earned through successive stints into the latter stages of Europe. Rafa's reign was on the whole a profitable period for the club it's a pity H&G ran the club into the ground though.

You talk about buying strikers and I agree but we had to sell Cisse, Morientes, Bellamy and Garcia to buy Torres in the first place. It was a case of sacrificing decent players and squad depth to buy a world class player. Crouch wanted to head back to London and Keane was a disaster and thankfully we only lost £3m on him. Financial constraints made it impossible to buy a decent striker, our first choice XI from 2007 until 2009 was top notch but we had no squad depth.

CL7 · 28-05-2012 12:41am

Fromthetrees wrote: »

He was under pressure and to be fair to him he generally bought and sold quiet well, I just remember that summers pre season friendlies and looking at the first goal scorer markets and it was like Torres and that was it, totally freaked me out, N'gog was second choice and he was around 20 like.

TOTAL BOUGHT: £229,340,000.
TOTAL SOLD: £151,000,000.
TOTAL NET SPEND: £78,340,000.

His net spend actually looks brilliant, thinking that Torres is included in the bought section and not in the sold section, knock 50 off the 78 milllion, then factor in what Liverpool will sell Maxi, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas even Kuyt and maybe a few others and he actually will have turned a tidy profit for Liverpool during his reign. Seems like he earned his multi-million payoff in the end.:P
I still think he should have bought a striker though, never forgive him for that.

Why do opposition fans take the piss out of Liverpool supporters when we used net spend to defend Benitez's transfer dealings? I've never understood this. It's the only figure that makes any sense to me but I could be missing something.

Jesus Wept · 28-05-2012 12:44am

CL7 wrote: »

Why do opposition fans take the piss out of Liverpool supporters when we used net spend to defend Benitez's transfer dealings? I've never understood this. It's the only figure that makes any sense to me but I could be missing something.

Most people are none too smart.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 11/12 MOD POST #1130

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