Are 4X4 becoming obsolete

whupdedo · 16-08-2015 8:03pm #1

What's the point of having a near 2 ton jeep when the total towing capacity including trailer and contents is 3.5 tons , you're allowed tow roughly 1.5 ton including a trailer.

Some of the smaller vans have a towing capacity of around 2 ton . Even the smallest berlingo has a towing capacity of nearly 1 ton, which a decent 8 by 4 car trailer would hold , including the weight of the trailer of course

So what's the advantage of having a 3 litre diesel guzzler with a diminished towing capacity because of current laws , when you could pull the same thing with a smaller van with better mpg ?

Eric Cartman · 16-08-2015 8:09pm

off road capabilities, better brakes, better suspension travel for rough roads, the ability to tread deeper water.

towing is only one element of a 4x4 , they still have a lot of use even when detached from a trailer.

paulmclaughlin · 16-08-2015 8:13pm

I think you've misunderstood towing capacities. If you have a BE licence, and a 4x4 capable of towing 3500 kg, you can tow 3500 kg, the weight of the vehicle does not matter as long as the vehicle, trailer and load combined do not exceed 7000 kg.

Read more here.

mulbot · 16-08-2015 8:18pm

pulling a max load constantly with something like a berlingo etc will wear out your clutch and other parts fairly quickly- A proper 4x4 will handle those jobs much easier.

whupdedo · 16-08-2015 8:19pm

paulmclaughlin wrote: »

I think you've misunderstood towing capacities. If you have a BE licence, and a 4x4 capable of towing 3500 kg, you can tow 3500 kg, the weight of the vehicle does not matter as long as the vehicle, trailer and load combined do not exceed 7000 kg.

Read more here.

That's what I've always understood, but I had a cpc today and the instructor was adamant that it is combined towing weight including vehicle towing , it has me confused as I always thought it was towing 3.5 not including jeep

Edit : I read through that and it seems my cpc instructor was wrong , thanks for that link , looks like I won't need to sell the diesel guzzler after all

mulbot · 16-08-2015 8:29pm

whupdedo wrote: »

That's what I've always understood, but I had a cpc today and the instructor was adamant that it is combined towing weight including vehicle towing , it has me confused as I always thought it was towing 3.5 not including jeep

If you have a B only license and say the trailer is over 750 kg,then it becomes combined weight, the whole setup can't be more than 3and half ton.

Theanswers · 16-08-2015 8:30pm

Your instructor was wrong!

Ps, I've yet to see a small car/ van pull an ifor Williams flat bed trailer up a saturated wet field with a steep slope.

.... My Discovery 3, does the job very nicely in grass,gravel and snow mode - most of time, I do need new tyres!!

GreaseGunner · 16-08-2015 8:46pm

The off road capabilities vs. that of a car or van will mean that the 4x4 will never be obsolete. It's a handy machine that can both go ~120km/h on a motorway and tackle dodgy fields just the same.

btb · 17-08-2015 8:44am

GreaseGunner wrote: »

The off road capabilities vs. that of a car or van will mean that the 4x4 will never be obsolete. It's a handy machine that can both go ~120km/h on a motorway and tackle dodgy fields just the same.

Totally off topic but.....

And it amazes me the ammount of drivers that think that they can do 120kph on the roads while towing their said trailer.

Theanswers · 17-08-2015 1:22pm

A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.

CJhaughey · 17-08-2015 3:48pm

btb wrote: »

Totally off topic but.....

And it amazes me the ammount of drivers that think that they can do 120kph on the roads while towing their said trailer.

Its all good with a car until it starts snaking and the whole thing goes bad really quickly.
You can't beat weight for towing safely, a heavy vehicle will give a measure of stability that cars mostly will never match.
Some cars do tow well, big old mercs like the 300D and so on but the current fashion for lightweight high powered cars towing big weights is crazy.

Tabnabs · 17-08-2015 3:55pm

Theanswers wrote: »

A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

In theory, yes, in practice, entirely illegal.

the maximum legal speed limit for a vehicle towing a trailer is 80km/hr.

TrailerBob · 17-08-2015 5:49pm

The 80kph limit on motorways for trailers is there to protect people from themselves. A properly loaded trailer can safely do higher speeds without any problem. The issue comes if a tyre were to blow, then the trailer becomes a huge danger. Combine that with the reality that a lot of people don't know how to load trailers properly, then snaking can become a problem. A properly balanced load will not make a trailer snake.

Back on topic, proper 4x4s will not go obsolete. A santa fe won't last long towing a fully loaded sheep trailer to the mart. The market for them is smaller, but still significant

Pkiernan · 18-08-2015 12:40pm

I don't know why people think 4x4's are for towing.

All else being equal 4x2's always have a higher towing capacity than 4x4's.

4x4's are meant to be for going places where 4x2's have difficulty.

Pkiernan · 18-08-2015 12:41pm

Theanswers wrote: »

A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.

I wouldn't like to be on the same stretch of road as you when you're towing ffs.

whupdedo · 18-08-2015 2:46pm

Also , does any one know the requirements to tow a 14 by 6 , or what are the limitations as to towing , length and axles ? Thanks for all the replies so far

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2015 2:50pm

Theanswers wrote: »

A proper 4x4 can do 120km per hour much safer than a standard saloon can do 80-100 with said trailer.

I'd be of the opinion that any good 4x4 - Land Rover, Pajero, Land cruiser would stop quicker at 120 than a saloon car with the same trailer at 80.

As noted earlier, they are setup with bigger capabilities in almost all areas of performances/ braking.

CJhaughey wrote: »

Its all good with a car until it starts snaking and the whole thing goes bad really quickly.
You can't beat weight for towing safely, a heavy vehicle will give a measure of stability that cars mostly will never match.
Some cars do tow well, big old mercs like the 300D and so on but the current fashion for lightweight high powered cars towing big weights is crazy.

I always thought 4x4 owners had failed Physics.

Glad it's confirmed now.

Kevhog1988 · 18-08-2015 2:58pm

4x4 transporter is a savage tool for towing etc imho... rare enough second hand tho

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 3:38pm

Pkiernan wrote: »

I don't know why people think 4x4's are for towing.

All else being equal 4x2's always have a higher towing capacity than 4x4's.

4x4's are meant to be for going places where 4x2's have difficulty.

Rubbish.

My Land Rover can tow 3.5 Tonne.

Find me a Two Wheel drive common vehicle that can tow the same, with equal performance.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 3:42pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

I always thought 4x4 owners had failed Physics.

Glad it's confirmed now.

You Sir no offence, must do very little towing.

Whoever thinks a euro matchbox is a towing vehicle has limited experience.

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2015 4:48pm

Theanswers wrote: »

You Sir no offence, must do very little towing.

Whoever thinks a euro matchbox is a towing vehicle has limited experience.

(full offense meant)
Muppets like you who don't understand basic physics are the reason I'd rather be driven in a bus.

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/speed.html

80km/h
Any vehicle towing a trailer, caravan, horsebox or other attachment

http://www.uktow.com/stopping%20distances.asp

Worth noting is that from 50 to 100 kph the braking distance of a car will increase from 10 metres to 40 metres. When you double the speed of a car braking distance quadruples.

This is based on the laws of physics. When a car is moving it has kinetic energy, ½mv2. When the velocity doubles the kinetic energy quadruples. The braking capability does not increase when driving faster, there are no reserves of friction. As such in any vehicle when your speed doubles braking distance is four times larger.

Vehicle weight
Weight is something that has to be considered during towing. If the trailer being towed does not have any braking system then the total weight of car and trailer is added together and spread over just the four braking tyres of the towing vehicle. If the trailer has a braking system then the weight is dispersed over all braking tyres and will give better stopping distances. On a wet or slippery surface the lack of brakes on a trailer will have much more effect on total stopping distances than in the dry.

To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 4:56pm

In the Real world - small cars are unable to cope with towing heavy loads.

I stand by my point. Ever wonder why farmers, builders and anyone who tows isn't using the latest diesel 1.6TDI.

Not Fit. I've seen said vehicles being pushed down hills due to the weight behind.

A proper 4x4 will have a low range box/ hill decent to avoid this. Likewise, the small brakes have trouble holding back big loads.

Try starting off on a steep slope with 2 tonne behind your passat. The clutch will be delighted.

You cannot argue that they are better. Even shocks/ air bags struts are better on larger 4x4s to handle weight on the back axle...

paulmclaughlin · 18-08-2015 5:07pm

A 4x4 is normally made for sturdier materials designed to cope with the stresses of towing heavier weights that cars.

Also, due to the heavier weight of a 4x4, it will generally have more grip on the road for braking due to greater pressure between the tyre and road. Therefore a 4x4 will stop a 2 ton trailer with more ease than a car.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 5:35pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

(full offense meant)
Muppets like you who don't understand basic physics are the reason I'd rather be driven in a bus.

http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/speed.html

http://www.uktow.com/stopping%20distances.asp

To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.

You are assuming all brakes are equal. They are not. Likewise you are assuming that when full brakes are applied that the heavily loaded trailer will not cause adverse effects on in your case the light towing vehicle. It will. Therefore, the larger 4x4 will handle this situation better. It's physics - the heavier the towing vehicle the better it is at absorbing the movement of the loaded trailer.

Kevhog1988 · 18-08-2015 5:52pm

Theanswers wrote: »

Rubbish.

My Land Rover can tow 3.5 Tonne.

Find me a Two Wheel drive common vehicle that can tow the same, with equal performance.

what brake setup has the landy? most defenders have **** stopping power. also newer fuma emgine is basically a transit engine

TrailerBob · 18-08-2015 5:59pm

Don't forget also, that any good factory built trailer will have proper brakes. When I have had to brake hard once or twice with my 12x6 indespension loaded with a Ferguson tractor, the trailer can actually help, even pulling back on the jeep a small bit. Physics principles will only apply when all other characteristics are equal... Which they're not. My brakes are much bigger than a passat.. I've had both, and towed with both

As for the question about lengths and axles, there is no real limit, once the weights are ok. I wouldn't recommend anything longer than 16ft though... Tail swing can be nasty on some of the very long Williams trailers

whupdedo · 18-08-2015 6:16pm

TrailerBob wrote: »

As for the question about lengths and axles, there is no real limit, once the weights are ok. I wouldn't recommend anything longer than 16ft though... Tail swing can be nasty on some of the very long Williams trailers

Cheers for that

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 6:32pm

theemigrant wrote: »

what brake setup has the landy? most defenders have **** stopping power. also newer fuma emgine is basically a transit engine

Mine has brembo... And in no way what so ever is my Land Rovers engine anything related to a transit. 245BHP TDV8.

CJhaughey · 18-08-2015 7:48pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

To wit: a HEAVIER vehicle WILL, EVERY TIME take longer to brake ; as will one travelling faster.

The weight of the tow vehicle has a big impact on how the load is controlled during braking.
The fact that a trailer has brakes means the braking load is not transferred to the tow vehicle during braking.
Braking is only one part of the equation, turning and controlling the trailer during the turn is another and the forces generated during turning are not braking forces but lateral forces, the heavier the tow vehicle the better it is able to resist the forces put through the towbar from side to side.

You can posit all kinds of physics and say that they are true but in the real world people that tow for a living and often do so in conditions that would stop a normal car from pulling away will use a 4wd because they are better for the job.

Load a family saloon with a 500kg trailer and another 700kg of timber, put the same car on a 15% incline and try and pull away, now try and do it while wet and you'll find it very difficult to make any progress without slipping the clutch and wheelspinning .
Try the same thing in a decent 4wd like a Landcruiser and you'll find the difference amazing, the low down torque that a big engine and big flywheel gives and the grip being transferred through all the big grippy tyres makes the job a lot easier.

mickdw · 18-08-2015 7:59pm

No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 8:02pm

mickdw wrote: »

No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.

4x4 means the Landcruiser or anything similar will be very grippy, unlike front or rear wheel drive cars.

Yes the have a higher centre of gravity, however they are no Reliant Robbin!!

My Land Rover for instance will lower it's suspension at anything over 45mph to lower the centre of gravity.

CJhaughey · 18-08-2015 8:02pm

mickdw wrote: »

No doubt landcruiser is a fantastic tool however it scares me the way people drive them on the road.
Yes they have come on alot over the years in terms of on road behaviour but imo they should not be thrown around like a car. Given the amount of suspension travel and the way they behave, they are not a nice machine to control if they get out of shape on a bend. I've known a few people put them on their roofs.

Yes, but this discussion is about towing not driving a big 4x4 like a sportscar.
I am in full agreement with you on that subject btw.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 8:07pm

I do agree however, they are not sport-car. They prefer no bends if possible!!

K.O.Kiki · 18-08-2015 9:30pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

You can posit all kinds of physics and say that they are true but in the real world people that tow for a living and often do so in conditions that would stop a normal car from pulling away will use a 4wd because they are better for the job.

And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.

Load a family saloon with a 500kg trailer and another 700kg of timber, put the same car on a 15% incline and try and pull away, now try and do it while wet and you'll find it very difficult to make any progress without slipping the clutch and wheelspinning .
Try the same thing in a decent 4wd like a Landcruiser and you'll find the difference amazing, the low down torque that a big engine and big flywheel gives and the grip being transferred through all the big grippy tyres makes the job a lot easier.

Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 10:06pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.

Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

No one has yet to show me a standard 2 wheel drive saloon which can tow 3.5 tonne.

Likewise, no one has yet to shown me a saloon car with a low range box for multiply the engine gearing ratio!

Let's see if we can get a smart car towing a load, now that according to the K.O.Kiki above, will be just perfect! Only in Ireland are people brainwashed with this rubbish.

Theanswers · 18-08-2015 10:07pm

Likewise, vans still are not as good as proper four wheel drives.

Very few if any are rated to 3.5 tonne.

Also a van will be more free and liable to movement, due to lighter weight than a proper 4x4.

TrailerBob · 18-08-2015 10:49pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

Oh where to start...

Put a hitch on a Nissan leaf and come back to me so I can stick the 16ft Williams on it with 2 ton of machine on top. There are realistically about 12 vehicles(excluding trucks) that should tow that, most are big 4x4s, and a few are long wheelbase, twin wheel heavy duty vans. That's it. classroom physics can't make up for real world experience..

Tbh I've done nearly 200,000 miles in my current cruiser, and it performs well on the road when driven right, and no car you can possibly find, will out perform it, or the likes of a discovery,with a trailer.

CJhaughey · 18-08-2015 10:54pm

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

And in the real world, people with vans do just as well.

Torque has nothing to do with the type of vehicle; it's to do with engine and gears.
FYI an electric car would have the most torque, and at (essentially) 0rpm.

Your average 4x4's tyres (if they are off-road tyres) will actually have LESS grip on tarmac. Off-road tyres have less rubber touching the road, ergo, less grip.

Correct, Torque is to do with the engine and gears, and if you read my post carefully you will see that I referenced big engine and flywheel.
The effect of a big displacement engine (Diesel or Petrol) is to have large amounts of torque just off idle, and the big flywheel in these engines also smoothes out the engine impulses that break the grip.
On smaller engines the torque is delivered higher in the rev range which necessitates higher revs and more clutch slip to modulate the power delivery.
I agree that a powerful electric engine would make a great towcar, but the shíte range of the current crop of cars would make towing anything a very shortlived affair not to mention that most electric cars don't have towbars.

Diesel electric trains are the ultimate solution but limited to travelling on tracks which makes parking inconvenient.

Grip is not just rubber surface area, it depends on the compound of the rubber, temperature and other factors.
Slicks on an icy road have zero grip, but huge contact area.
So your simplistic analysis of the tyre tread vs grip is wrong.

Just out of interest what towing experience have you got, or is it all theoretical?

CJhaughey · 18-08-2015 10:56pm

TrailerBob wrote: »

Tbh I've done nearly 200,000 miles in my current cruiser, and it performs well on the road when driven right, and no car you can possibly find, will out perform it, or the likes of a discovery,with a trailer.

I sold my SWB 90 LC with 275mls on it, its still running like a clock.
You've years left in yours:)

TrailerBob · 18-08-2015 11:00pm

It passed 250k last month, bought it with 60k on it.. no plans to move it on anytime soon!

CJhaughey · 18-08-2015 11:06pm

TrailerBob wrote: »

It passed 250k last month, bought it with 60k on it.. no plans to move it on anytime soon!

1KZ-TE or the 1KD-FTV?

visual · 18-08-2015 11:09pm

Most 4x4 are designed by manufacturer to be capable of towing 6 tons or more. So being restricted to 3.5 tons by law is well within there capability.

Cars and vans are stretching there abilities towing heavy trailers even if they are rated for the load

TrailerBob · 18-08-2015 11:19pm

CJhaughey wrote: »

1KZ-TE or the 1KD-FTV?

It's the KD, very last of the 95's. Running sweet. Only ever had routine maintenance. Some people prefer the older engine, but the power difference is significant.

CJhaughey · 19-08-2015 8:12pm

Hmm no reply from Koo ki kid, maybe he has gone to do his E license and prove that an EV is a great tow vehicle?

Theanswers · 19-08-2015 9:12pm

I was just thinking along the same lines... No reply!

Theanswers · 19-08-2015 9:15pm

Now this would be a good tow car. However I don't think it's what OP had in mind!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThfF_mH3xSo

Irish Steve · 24-08-2015 10:03am

Had a range of vehicles over the years that were used for towing, the current vehicle is an Isuzu crew cab 4 x 4, and I'm in no hurry to change it despite spending a lot of time recently rebuilding the rear wheel arches in order to pass the DOE.

The 4 x 4 has advantages when towing heavy loads, the braking is more effective, and the total weight of the vehicle helps to avoid problems with the trailer balance and stability, and the big fat wide tyres are a significant help on some of the less than optimum road surfaces that are all to prevalent in some parts of the country. I originally got it after major flooding issues in our area, I needed something that could pretend to be a submarine in an emergency, and it does that very well also. It was also very helpful when we needed to be able to carry a significant number of large "coffin" boxes containing flowers, and the people to work on them when we got to the venue, which for large weddings and the like was essential.

So, 4 x 4 is actually only a minor part of the scenario. I've probably only used the 4 wheel option for 1 or 2% of the total distance it's travelled, ( it lived in 4Wd for a couple of months when the weather was dire and the roads were covered in snow a few years back) , the rest of the time, it is in 2WD high ratio, it wasn't bought for off road work.

It's not a vehicle that would be chosen in large numbers, if for no other reason than that getting it in and out of parking spaces in car parks can be a pain, at 5m length and with a turning circle that could cross the county border, there are some places where it just won't go, and there's no point trying, but for the jobs it was built for, it's hard to beat it, and despite it being nearly 2 tonne emtpy, it still returns over 35 miles to the gallon, unless I push hard at high speeds, which is not unreasonable.

I'd be hard pressed to find a replacement that's as capable of doing all that this does, but at some stage, I'm going to have to, and it won't be easy.

homerjay2005 · 07-09-2015 9:20am

thinking of buying a new car (2008/2009) and the missus wants to buy something along the lines of a Kia Sportage, Hyundai Tuscon, while weve also looked at the Fiat Sedici and Ssanyoung Actyon.

my issue is they are exceptionally cheap, around €4,000 to €5,000. so what the catch, why are garages selling them at that price?

if anybody has experience of owning any of the 4 model above, would greatly appreciate any advise especially in terms of reliability and running costs. our current car is fairly petrol intensive (only get about 108 miles for €20) so looking for something that isnt less fuel efficient that at worst.

TrailerBob · 07-09-2015 11:00pm

Certainly the latter 2 you mention would be just poor quality vehicles.
The Tucson is not a bad car. A friend has one for a year now, and it's pretty reliable, though it's as bland as a bland thing painted magnolia. They are 2 wheel drive so not awful on fuel either. Built like a mid 90's Japanese car really.

07-09-2015 11:28pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

it still returns over 35 miles to the gallon, unless I push hard at high speeds, which is not unreasonable.

What 4x4 you driving?

Irish Steve · 08-09-2015 1:07am

316 wrote: »

What 4x4 you driving?

2003 Isuzu TFS 4 x 4 lwb crew cab with 2.5 Turbo Diesel engine, has a Carryboy hard top on the back, so not completely waterproof over the load area, but close enough. Not the most comfortable of machines for long distances, especially for the back seats, but it's done me well since I've had it, pretty much from new.

Reliability it's been very good, I've not had to spend a great deal over the years, it needs new rear spring shackle bushes every 2 or 3 years, and the back exhaust box has broken the pipe a couple of times, but they are cheap enough from Milner's in the UK.

Had to rebuild the rear wheel arches this year for the DOE test due to rust, but the rest of it is in good shape, and it's never given me any worries on BF Goodrich tyres, which are lasting very well. The running board supports on the drivers side rusted out earlier this year as well, but they weren't too hard to replace.

Engine is very flexible, and has the advantage of no timing belt to be replaced at regular intervals, which keeps the costs down.

It won't set the world on fire acceleration wise, but it will cruise at between 110 and 130 Kph if I need it to.

It's also not a bad towing machine either, I've had a long Ifor Williams trailer on the back with Fork Lift batteries on it, so well over 2 Tonne of load plus the trailer weight, and it takes that with no problems.

Are 4X4 becoming obsolete

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