How much Irish is too much?

iguana · 13-09-2012 6:40pm #1

I'm doing an edit on a book I've written and I'm not sure if I'm crossing a line between having an authentic Irish vibe and being alienating to any possible non-Irish audience. The book genre is probably best described as commercial fiction and I do plan on trying to publish it if I ever feel it's ready. I don't want limit my options but on the other hand it is a book about Irish people, (mostly) in Ireland, experiencing events that have a very Irish slant and I want it to feel like that as the setting is important to the story.

It isn't Oirished up or anything but we do use words and phrases that don't translate well out of Ireland. Even small things like how grand means normal-fine and press means cupboard. We reference cultural things like The Late, Late, Liveline or Bosco and on occasion even the least gaeilgeoir among us might throw an Irish word or two into conversation. Things like this are definitely present in my story, not a lot but they are there, and I'm swinging between thinking they are an essential part of setting the scene or that they will hobble my chances of anyone outside of Ireland giving it a chance.

martinedwards · 13-09-2012 11:14pm

Ah, sure the yanks'll lap it up!

be honest. write honestly. an Irish publisher will be able to streamline it for a wider audience if they think it needs it.

EileenG · 14-09-2012 12:28pm

Cut the Irishisms.

I'm astonished at how often friends in America don't understand my e-mails, never mind my books, and I don't reference Bosco or stuff like that.

It's fine to use an Irish turn of phrase, so that your reader has no doubt those are Irish characters, but there's no point losing potential readers for the sake of press/cupboard.

I think I'd be inclined to use Irish English, but not to use Irish slang, except in special cases. Apart from anything, even young Irish people don't necessarily use press or messages.

Also, watch "bold", we use it as a synonym for "naughty" but in the rest of the world, it's a compliment.

There are more Irish people living outside Ireland than in it, who are likely to buy a book about Ireland. Don't alienate them by usages that exclude anyone who living in the country.

Musiconomist · 14-09-2012 12:51pm

Roddy Doyle's books, like them or loathe them, wouldn't work & wouldn't be genuine without the strong cultural contexts. Some books make up their own slang, like a Clockwork Orange, which I also think can be cool.

I think it's more important for your work to be authentic on it's own, a world unto itself.

Morzadec · 17-09-2012 10:50pm

Kevin Barry has had a lot of success recently and his books are strewn with Irish-isms, some of which are even I as a Dubliner might not know (Barry is from Tipperary I think).

Daniel Woodrell is an author I love and I think he writes amazingly well but a decent chunk of the vocabulary goes over my head because it is about a very specific place - the Ozarks. That hasn't stopped his novels becoming critically acclaimed and achieving decent commercial success.

David Peace is another who's book drew me in and I loved the Yorkshire vocab, such as the lack of definite articles (e.g. 'Put kettle on').

'How late it was' by James Kelman has a lot of Glasgow slang dialogue and that won a Booker prize.

Authenticity is important and can be one of the big draws of a book. Your primary audience if you did get published would initially be Irish and if your language is overly-Americanized it might put people off.

For me I think you have to look at your audience. How would you describe the genre of your book? For me the more 'literary' a book is, the more you get away with this. In fact this would be encouraged. But if you're writing more of a popular-page-turner-thriller style book, too many Irish-isms would be discouraged, and comprehension and ease of reading need to be prioritised.

In other words strike a balance, but strike it in the appropriate place for your perceived audience.

PurpleBee · 18-09-2012 2:22pm

Ah if the book is good enough then no one is going to give up on it because you used press instead of cupboard.

niall mc cann · 18-09-2012 2:32pm

I'd say keep it authentic.

If the character would say "press" rather than "cupboard", its got to be "press". You're not going to necessarily pick up on every piece of slang in every book that you read, but you don't need to, if it's written well enough.

EileenG · 18-09-2012 2:51pm

PurpleBee wrote: »

Ah if the book is good enough then no one is going to give up on it because you used press instead of cupboard.

Sorry, this isn't true. I've had exactly this situation, and it does make a difference. Too many Irishisms can get a book rejected.

I'd use Irish phrases and speech patterns, but be very wary of using words in a way that only some Irish people (usually the old ones) understand.

Just because Roddy Doyle or Kevin Barry managed something doesn't mean that's the way to go. 50 Shades is an example of a book that succeeded, but isn't an example of what to do.

If you are entering a competition, particularly an Irish one, then go as Irish as you like. But if you are hoping for commercial publication, then make sure the majority of your readers outside the country can follow and understand the story easily.

pickarooney · 18-09-2012 3:04pm

Go with your gut. If you try to pander to the lowest common denominator you'll end up with a book with no soul that you hate. On the other hand, if you want to actually sell the book, write to the audience you think will buy it.

Morzadec · 18-09-2012 6:56pm

EileenG wrote: »

Sorry, this isn't true. I've had exactly this situation, and it does make a difference. Too many Irishisms can get a book rejected.

I'd use Irish phrases and speech patterns, but be very wary of using words in a way that only some Irish people (usually the old ones) understand.

Just because Roddy Doyle or Kevin Barry managed something doesn't mean that's the way to go. 50 Shades is an example of a book that succeeded, but isn't an example of what to do.

If you are entering a competition, particularly an Irish one, then go as Irish as you like. But if you are hoping for commercial publication, then make sure the majority of your readers outside the country can follow and understand the story easily.

This may not rank highly in the importance of his target audience though.

I agree with your general point, probably for most types of fiction he would need to rein the Irish-isms in.

But do you not think it depends on the genre/style of his fiction?

Joseph O'Connor's Star of the Sea is another brilliant book that has come to mind. How much would that have lost if O'Connor put 'ease of understanding' as his number 1 priority?

I believe if he is to market his book more as 'literature' rather than 'popular fiction', then he should have this authenticity in his dialogue and perhaps even his prose.

I totally agree that it could hinder him and make it inaccessible if he is looking for a more 'bestseller' type of approach. For example, if he wants to write a fast-paced thriller, a page-turner, it's probably best not to bog down the reader with these type of difficulties.

Like I said before, it totally depends what type of book you're writing in my opinion, and about striking the balance between comprehension and authenticity in a way that suits your genre and your perceived target audience.

iguana · 18-09-2012 8:37pm

PurpleBee wrote: »

Ah if the book is good enough then no one is going to give up on it because you used press instead of cupboard.

I'm not sure that's the right way to approach it. Obviously if I get to the point of trying to get it published I will think it's good enough but as it's not up to me, I want to make sure that I do everything to avoid annoying the people who it is up to. While I don't think writers should spend all their time thinking about what the market dictates, the fact is only a tiny percentage of aspiring writers ever get published so it's a good idea to take a little time to do what you can to maximise your chances.

EileenG wrote: »

Sorry, this isn't true. I've had exactly this situation, and it does make a difference. Too many Irishisms can get a book rejected.

Eileen was this for a book that was set in Ireland?

Morzadec wrote: »

For me I think you have to look at your audience. How would you describe the genre of your book? For me the more 'literary' a book is, the more you get away with this. In fact this would be encouraged. But if you're writing more of a popular-page-turner-thriller style book, too many Irish-isms would be discouraged, and comprehension and ease of reading need to be prioritised.

I'd love to describe it as a literary masterwork but to be very honest if this book does ever get published it will be the type you can pick up for €5.95 at Tesco. I wrote it because I find the plot an interesting one but it's honestly more popcorn than steak in terms of substance.

I think what I'll do is keep on as I am with this draft and then go over it to see if any of the language is or references are confusing to the point of alienation. It really is important to the story that the setting is Irish, so I definitely don't want to lose the Irish feel either.

EileenG · 19-09-2012 1:48am

iguana wrote: »

Eileen was this for a book that was set in Ireland?

Mine wasn't, but my friend had a book set in the centre of Dublin, and still had to cut the Irishisms.

PurpleBee · 19-09-2012 1:43pm

Eileen I take your point and you have far more experience than me but let's not be too hasty to confuse the publisher with the average reader.

hcass · 19-09-2012 6:43pm

Christ, if I can enjoy Irvine Welsh's books then I can't think of how a few Irish slang words would stop anyone enjoying a book.

If anything Welsh's use of slang and the vernacular raised his books above the usual sh!te that panders to the "everyman". Yes, it took a bit more effort but it was worth it. It adds an authenticity that I think is invaluable.

I say go with the Irish words. There are so many writers who use them successfully. Roddy Doyle, Frank McCourt, Steinbeck, Welsh, Neville Thompson, James JOyce for christ's sake! I can't see why anyone would think of dropping them - it would rob those books of their soul.

When I say "them" I mean the vernacular in general - be that Irish, Scottish, American or otherwise.

Antilles · 19-09-2012 7:01pm

If you're writing a story where "Irishness" is essential to the story, then have lots of slang if you want, but if its not absolutely essential then minimise it as best you can.

I'm writing a sci-fi story at the minute where its totally irrelevant if the character is Irish, so that means he's not.

If I was writing a sci-fi about how Ireland and Irish people dealt with an alien invasion then I'd have plenty of slang and Irish-isms because it serves the narrative.

echo beach · 21-09-2012 12:14am

EileenG wrote: »

Sorry, this isn't true. I've had exactly this situation, and it does make a difference. Too many Irishisms can get a book rejected.

I didn't know there were Irishisms on this holy catholic island of saints and scholars for the sort of stuff you write about Eileen.:D

pickarooney · 21-09-2012 12:20am

echo beach wrote: »

EileenG wrote: »

Sorry, this isn't true. I've had exactly this situation, and it does make a difference. Too many Irishisms can get a book rejected.

I didn't know there were Irishisms on this holy catholic island of saints and scholars for the sort of stuff you write about Eileen.:D

Masochist: give us a few flakes o' that wavin pipe there boss
Sadist: indeed an' I won't

EileenG · 21-09-2012 12:20am

echo beach wrote: »

I didn't know there were Irishisms on this holy catholic island of saints and scholars for the sort of stuff you write about Eileen.:D

Even the smut has Irishisms!

deirdremf · 06-05-2013 10:49pm

EileenG wrote: »

Mine wasn't, but my friend had a book set in the centre of Dublin, and still had to cut the Irishisms.

Just as a matter of curiosity, was the publisher an Irish company?
Even at that, I'm sure different publishers have different policies, depending on who the readership are likely to be.
If the book was well-received in Ireland, couldn't a separate edition be prepared for the yanks and the brits at a later date?

EileenG · 07-05-2013 10:56am

deirdremf wrote: »

Just as a matter of curiosity, was the publisher an Irish company?
Even at that, I'm sure different publishers have different policies, depending on who the readership are likely to be.
If the book was well-received in Ireland, couldn't a separate edition be prepared for the yanks and the brits at a later date?

No, it was an American one. One who likes foreign flavours, but in American.

No, they don't do a seperate version. On the Penguin book, there were a lot of comments from American readers about typos. American readers often don't even know that the rest of the world puts a U in color.

I suggested doing an American version for the e-book for this one, it would be a quick edit for us, but they said that it would effectively be a new book, and would cost a fortune.

How much Irish is too much?

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