dilemma

confused husband · 19-03-2013 9:20pm #1

Hello everyone,

My wife and I have a dilemma and I’m posting here for your views on the situation. Mods, if this needs to go someplace else please move it to the appropriate place.

We are planning on having children in the near future and my wife has suddenly decided that when they are old enough they should attend Sunday school and church.

The dilemma arises because now she wants me to attend the church when this occurs, and be part of the church community. I am agnostic, we talked about our religion before marriage (she is an atheist), and even in front of our parents, and everyone seemed ok with the fact that I am agnostic. Until children are involved and I feel that being a member of a religious community that is not my own is wrong. Before marriage I have made this belief very clear. Now it its causing arguments obviously.

My feelings of this entire argument shout that it’s wrong. My view is if we follow through with this we are going to someone else's community just for the benefits, and not their beliefs. If we can't share the same beliefs with the community how can we be a part of it?

19-03-2013 9:28pm

Your wife is an atheist and she wants her (unborn) children to attend Sunday school and church. Why does she want this, may I ask? What are her reasons? I cannot understand why an atheist would wish for her children to attend church — excepting cases where, say, baptism is required to attend primary school.

confused husband · 19-03-2013 9:34pm

she believes this will provide structure and a sense of community into the child.

and as my post says, how can we be a member of that specific community if we ourselves are not in agreement with their beliefs?

fitz0 · 19-03-2013 9:56pm

Is she a part of this community herself?

I struggle to follow her logic in this. Being forced to attend something like mass or sunday school that his parents don't believe in is hardly going to set a consistent example for a child. I'm not sure what sort of community other religions engender but I didn't find Catholicism to be a very inclusive community. It was always a go to mass, leave mass and that's it for another week sort of thing.

What values and structure does your wife see religious devotions giving your child?

Sulla Felix · 19-03-2013 10:45pm

Bring them to the local GAA/rugby club. Hell of a lot more community spirit engendered in there.

magicbastarder · 19-03-2013 10:45pm

what breed of christianity has she settled on?
i suppose the benefit of being an atheist and making a decision like this is you get to pick the best religion. you should suggest frisbeetarianism.

Obliq · 19-03-2013 11:38pm

It's my guess that it's Church of Ireland and she had that sense of community from those activities herself, as a child. I've noticed in friends who are COI that it's more a lifestyle choice rather than a belief system. In fact (and I know I'll be corrected here) no belief in God seems to be required, just a healthy love of getting together for songs and cake, jumble sales and sunday school for well behaved children. (Not bitter - only went once, when in "exploring religion" mode aged 9)

robindch · 20-03-2013 12:31am

confused husband wrote: »

she believes this will provide structure and a sense of community into the child.

The function of a church is to propagate its own beliefs. So it's strange that somebody would choose to join one with which they presumably disagree profoundly, that they'd force their partner into joining too, then allow if not encourage the church to indoctrinate their kids with whatever random religious beliefs the church happens to hold.

I'm not quite sure what she means about "providing structure", though I assume that it means teaching the ten commandments etc. Well, have a look through the majority of what the churches are teaching up to now -- homophobia, the AIDS + condoms mess, anti-marriage-equality and so on. Hell, pick up a few issues of the "Alive!" trashzine (available here) and ask her if that's the kind of "structure" and values she wants for her kids. Invite her to read John Waters and ask the same question.

Neither am I sure what she might mean by a "sense of community" either. Here, I think she probably means, unconsciously, membership of a group. In this case, that's typically a religious ingroup defined as much by a sense of its own superiority, as it is by its rejection and judgement of the beliefs and characters of other religious groupings (and those of no religion at all). Does she really want to have her kid coming home asking her "Mum, are you going to burn in hell?" Or could your kid be subjected to somebody (or turn into somebody) who would tell a six-year old girl (as happened to my 6yo daughter a few weeks back) that she'd burn in hell because she didn't believe the right religious stories? That's pretty frightening stuff for kids to have to deal with and while not all will have to face it, some will.

In any case, There are plenty of outlets other than churches that encourage a far more wholesome kind of social cohesion -- extended families themselves, sports clubs, dancing schools, mountain walking, cycling, charity and volunteer work etc, etc. All of which offer the opportunity to take part and contribute to inclusive, social activities carried out for open and honest reasons, and which do not involve sitting on hard benches, listening to a string of mostly elderly, (possibly) sexless men attempt to secure their own jobs by lying to everybody in general terms, and frightening young children in particular.

Andrewf20 · 20-03-2013 1:57am

Theres many other possible alternatives for your kids to get involved. Why she is choosing this difficult route seems bizarre. In most villages you will find, drama / panto, soccer, GAA, karate, scouts etc.

My vote is to let the kids pick something for themselves. Id say most kids have little or no interest in religon anyway. If they want to do Sunday school, then great, but if not, then ask what they want to do instead and go from there.

It sounds like she wants you's (husband and wife) to be part of the community as much as the kids. Again, theres loads of clubs for adults to deal with this dilemma. Forcing you to do Sunday school so to speak is similar to you saying to her, that you want her to attend soccer practice (assuming she has no interest in it) with you and the kids to get involved in the commmunity.

I dont see the whole idea as being fair tbh.

GCU Flexible Demeanour · 20-03-2013 2:14am

confused husband wrote: »

If we can't share the same beliefs with the community how can we be a part of it?

tbh, I'd expect that whether you'd feel a part of that particular community would depend more on the people you'd meet there rather than on the basis of formal adherence to a belief system. I mean, if you attend a funeral in a church setting, do you feel utterly distant from all the people there - at least some of which you must know, as you'd hardly be there otherwise? I find my focus is more on the people, the religious trappings are just incidental.

That said, it does seem strange to actively seek out a group when you don't share their fundamental principle. Fair enough, people might join the local GAA club just to use the bar. But this means a more fundamental commitment.

I do (I think) see where your wife is coming from. She wants to provide the children with a proven model, something that helps them find their feet in the world. I just think she'll find it increasingly difficult to, on a day-to-day basis, practice a religion that she thinks is hogwash. She'd better to reflect on what she really holds dear, and what she feels it would be helpful for your children to experience. And I don't mean that in a judgmental way - I just feel, after a couple of years, she'll throw her hat at the whole business in frustration.

Dades · 20-03-2013 4:02pm

I think the first step is to reassure her that you don't have to go to church to be part of a great community. (If you do - you're doing it wrong.) Community usually evolves from neighbours, school and activities such as sport. No religion required.

I've always told my wife she's welcome to bring my children to mass herself, but I won't ever be there (with the exception of family masses etc). The number of times she's brought them in 4 1/2 years? Zero.

Stand your ground from the outset and let your wife stand hers. Likely as not she'll have better things to do when kids come along. Like maybe one lie-in a week!

dmw07 · 20-03-2013 5:58pm

I kept scrolling down expecting this thread to be closed but it's not, so I have to ask some things.

I don't mean to be unfair to the OP but i'm going to ask about what I think is a giant blue elephant in the room.

I am agnostic, we talked about our religion before marriage (she is an atheist)

being a member of a religious community that is not my own is wrong

Am I as confused as the OP, or did I miss the memo where atheism and agnosticism became religions?

If we can't share the same beliefs with the community how can we be a part of it?

What beliefs?

l may have finally fallen off the skeptical cliff but this is a troll, or not?

Dades · 20-03-2013 6:41pm

dmw07 wrote: »

If we can't share the same beliefs with the community how can we be a part of it?

What beliefs?

I assume this to mean they won't share the beliefs of the community his wife wants them to be part of. And as for referring to discussing "their religion" I guess that's a way of saying they discussed their lack of belief.

I'll be very disappointed if you haven't fallen off the skeptical cliff with this one!

dmw07 · 20-03-2013 9:51pm

Dades wrote: »

I assume this to mean they won't share the beliefs of the community his wife wants them to be part of. And as for referring to discussing "their religion" I guess that's a way of saying they discussed their lack of belief.

I'll be very disappointed if you haven't fallen off the skeptical cliff with this one!

Haha. Maybe, maybe. If the OP comes back I'll ask.

Beruthiel · 21-03-2013 9:14am

confused husband wrote: »

she believes this will provide structure and a sense of community into the child.

With all due respect to your wife, that's a complete lack of imagination on her part.
There are a bazillion ways you can can get involved with your community and none of them to do with religion.
This community you wish to join, is it so narrow minded that it will only allow people of a certain religion to join?
If so, why would anyone want to get involved with such a group?

I find it quite shocking that she would push a particular god on her child when she doesn't believe in one herself.
You need to sit down with her again and talk this through logically.
Also, do some research on all the different activities going on in your area and point out how they would be a much better alternative to filling your childs head with fairy tales.

dilemma

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