The B121/121 class

Itssoeasy · 27-01-2012 10:26pm #1

I know the 121s weren't allowed run bonnet first soon after they arrived due to apparent visibility issues but I'm thinking the 121s were delivered in the early sixties and view from the steam engines would had the same General can view as the 121s so can any of the more knowledgeable posters here tell me was the visibility that bad from them or was it due to some other reason ?

27-01-2012 11:10pm

It was reportedly due to an accident (Sallins?) where a B121 collided with a stationary PW train after the driver failed to hear the detonators on the track.

dowlingm · 27-01-2012 11:17pm

There was an accident which led to bonnet-first running being dispensed with.
http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20175/175%20B121.htm

steamengine · 27-01-2012 11:36pm

dowlingm wrote: »

There was an accident which led to bonnet-first running being dispensed with.
http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20175/175%20B121.htm

As kids we used to refer to these locos as 'Yankees', where it came from I don't really know, but the same nickname (more or less) is referred to at the top of that article. Was the nickname initiated by the drivers one wonders ?

Itssoeasy · 27-01-2012 11:58pm

steamengine wrote: »

As kids we used to refer to these locos as 'Yankees', where it came from I don't really know, but the same nickname (more or less) is referred to at the top of that article. Was the nickname initiated by the drivers one wonders ?

I pressumed it was because they were in the style of the us switcher style.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 12:51am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I pressumed it was because they were in the style of the us switcher style.

Almost; it was simply because they were American built

Niles · 28-01-2012 12:55am

Even in recent years I've heard the term "Yanks" used in reference to the 121 class. Was it ever used with the 141/181s or just the 121s?

I seem to remember in their early years the Spanish built 2700 class were known as "Sparrows" (Spanish-Arrows, the "Arrow" branding being used for a time on IÉ's pre-29000 class railcar fleet).

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 12:55am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Almost; it was simply because they were American built

But the 141,181, 071s were American built werent they ? But they werent called the yanks were they ?

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 12:58am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But the 141,181, 071s were American built werent they ? But they werent called the yanks were they ?

They were but the 121's came first, ya see

Niles · 28-01-2012 12:59am

I presume by the time the 071s arrived being American built wasn't particularly distinctive, whereas it would have made the 121s quite distinct when they came in. Actually, I believe one of the west Cork lines had a US-built 0-6-2ST(?), possibly a Baldwin(?), but I can't think of much else in the way US traction before then.

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 1:06am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They were but the 121's came first, ya see

So the 121s were the only class called the yanks then ? Speaking of the GM locos the 071s are the loco I remember all through me life. Let's hope a few are preserved losty Dublin.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 1:10am

Niles wrote: »

I seem to remember in their early years the Spanish built 2700 class were known as "Sparrows" (Spanish-Arrows, the "Arrow" branding being used for a time on IÉ's pre-29000 class railcar fleet).

That's right, yeah. The 2600s were known as the Japs and the tin cans being the the first railcars in years as well though early in their career, one driver ended up with them failing a few times on his watch sp he dubbed them "For ****s Saki"

One other name that thankfully didn't stick on the 29000's came courtesy of then unusually bright green livery; the Day Glo Dago's.

Captain Chaos · 28-01-2012 1:12am

The 121s were the Yanks alright. When IE asked for a GM with two cabs in what became the 141s, GM called them the Irish mods and marketed future international GMs with dual cabs as such for a time. To us now the 141/181s are known or were as the Baby GMs once the 071s came along.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 1:17am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So the 121a were the only class called the yanks then ? Speaking of the GM locos the 071s are the loco I remember all through me life. Let's hope a few are preserved losty Dublin.

Yep, that's right. The 141's were the B's due to they being in the B class designation used by CIE at the time. When the 181's came on stream they were nicknamed B's by some as well as they were virtually identical to the 141's; the lettering system being discontinued by then. For what it's worth, the 001 Class were the A's and the old 201 the C's; these labels also stuck with them to this day

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 1:27am

Ya but weren't the 181s numbered B181-B192 before the lettering was dropped ? And the C class was were called B whatever once the sulzers went to loco heaven. And actually my father works in bus Eireann and has aloud of the nuacht publications and the fair well tour for the sulzers is mentioned.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 1:39am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Ya but weren't the 181s numbered B181-B192 before the lettering was dropped ? And the C class was were called B whatever once the sulzers went to loco heaven. And actually my father works in bus Eireann and has aloud of the nuacht publications and the fair well tour for the sulzers is mentioned.

Apparently, when the order was made for them it was assumed that the 567 series engine was to be installed as a continuation of the 141 class. GM used the newer and larger 645 series hence the anomaly. As the class was to be used as part of the 141's, it was decided to leave it be and they left it "B"

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 1:49am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Apparently, when the order was made for them it was assumed that the 567 series engine was to be installed as a continuation of the 141 class. GM used the newer and larger 645 series hence the anomaly. As the class was to be used as part of the 141's, it was decided to leave it be and they left it "B"

So the 141s were meant to have been 141-192 and how long could the 141s and 181s have lasted with regular maintenance beyond their end of service on IE ? And would a single 181 have made the tunnel our of cork unlike the double 141s I've seen.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 1:57am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

So the 141s were meant to have been 141-192 and how long could the 141s and 181s have lasted with regular maintenance beyond their end of service on IE ? And would a single 181 have made the tunnel our of cork unlike the double 141s I've seen.

They weren't in the sense of being actual 141s as they were slightly different in some respects, hence they being a distinct 181 class. In terms of their usage and work duties they were considered to be the same fleet as they were able to work double headed, control panel, axle load, operating speeds, train electrics etc.

I don't know if a single 181 or 141 hauled full loads out or not, sorry. 121's did operate mail trains on their own so I'd assume that the better braked 141/181's did.

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 2:07am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They weren't in the sense of being actual 141s as they were slightly different in some respects, hence they being a distinct 181 class. In terms of their usage and work duties they were considered to be the same fleet as they were able to work double headed, control panel, axle load, operating speeds, train electrics etc.

I don't know if a single 181 or 141 hauled full loads out or not, sorry. 121's did operate mail trains on their own so I'd assume that the better braked 141/181's did.

Thank you losty I genuinely mean that. I have a good knowledge of the locos but not as good as you do.my question about the. Tunnel is because I've seen a double headed 141 hauling a rake out of cork so I assumed the 181s would have made if.

Cookie_Monster · 28-01-2012 3:49am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

how long could the 141s and 181s have lasted with regular maintenance beyond their end of service on IE ?

not much longer I reckon, they did 49 and a bit years from first to last, there's only so long they can go before they are life expired. Pity IE didn't get one to limp on to the 50 year anniversary though.

146 is still in active service with the RPSI ITG, well they crashed it and it's being rebuilt, but they should get plenty more years out of her. Great photos in the Irish Mail with it missing most of the no2 end! 141 and 142 also persevered but I don't think they been used to much.

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 4:11am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not much longer I reckon, they did 49 and a bit years from first to last, there's only so long they can go before they are life expired. Pity IE didn't get one to limp on to the 50 year anniversary though.

146 is still in active service with the RPSI ITG, well they crashed it and it's being rebuilt, but they should get plenty more years out of her. Great photos in the Irish Mail with it missing most of the no2 end! 141 and 142 also persevered but I don't think they been used to much.

How did they crash her ? Wasnt she in downpatrick ? So did they just miss the end of the line and make **** of her.

Itssoeasy · 28-01-2012 4:22am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not much longer I reckon, they did 49 and a bit years from first to last, there's only so long they can go before they are life expired. Pity IE didn't get one to limp on to the 50 year anniversary though.

146 is still in active service with the RPSI ITG, well they crashed it and it's being rebuilt, but they should get plenty more years out of her. Great photos in the Irish Mail with it missing most of the no2 end! 141 and 142 also persevered but I don't think they been used to much.

I've checked and cant find any pics. Which irish DAILY Mail was it in ?

Cookie_Monster · 28-01-2012 4:45am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I've checked and cant find any pics. Which irish DAILY Mail was it in ?

The Irish Mail is an ITG magazine (sorry, should have said that

)

They ran it into a wagon of some description and bent the sheet metal just above the chassis. End result being the had to strip the cab and cut out the damaged section. So the loco is missing all the material from level with the side lights to just below the windows. I've no scanner to get a copy of the pics though.

dowlingm · 28-01-2012 5:51am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

But the 141,181, 071s were American built werent they ? But they werent called the yanks were they ?

Not the 071s. Like the 201s they were built at EMD London Ontario, not EMD La Grange, Illinois. EMD is now owned by Caterpillar's subsidiary Progress Rail. A rather nasty labour dispute is currently ongoing at the Canadian plant.

CIE · 28-01-2012 7:11am

dowlingm wrote: »

Not the 071s. Like the 201s they were built at EMD London Ontario, not EMD La Grange, Illinois. EMD is now owned by Caterpillar's subsidiary Progress Rail. A rather nasty labour dispute is currently ongoing at the Canadian plant.

Wasn't the Canadian division called GMD (General Motors Diesel Ltd.) rather than EMD (Electro-Motive Division), under General Motors ownership?

And IIRC, the 071-class JT22CWs were indeed built at LaGrange in the USA and not London in Canada, making them all-EMD; this is per Irish Railways: Traction and Travel as well as other sources. The Wikipedia page on the 071-class has it wrong.

Losty Dublin · 28-01-2012 12:58pm

CIE wrote: »

And IIRC, the 071-class JT22CWs were indeed built at LaGrange in the USA and not London in Canada, making them all-EMD; this is per Irish Railways: Traction and Travel as well as other sources. The Wikipedia page on the 071-class has it wrong.

Yep, 071's were indeed American built. Don't know about the name thing though.

Hungerford · 28-01-2012 4:14pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not much longer I reckon, they did 49 and a bit years from first to last, there's only so long they can go before they are life expired. Pity IE didn't get one to limp on to the 50 year anniversary though.

There are allegedly still three in service for shunting purposes according to Irish Rail.

28-01-2012 7:12pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The Irish Mail is an ITG magazine (sorry, should have said that )

They ran it into a wagon of some description and bent the sheet metal just above the chassis. End result being the had to strip the cab and cut out the damaged section. So the loco is missing all the material from level with the side lights to just below the windows. I've no scanner to get a copy of the pics though.

I haven't seen the photos, just saw 146 with a tarp over the number 2 end. I was due to drive her during the summer but it was called off. Never knew why until one of the local spotters told me what happened!

Cookie_Monster · 28-01-2012 8:28pm

Hungerford wrote: »

There are allegedly still three in service for shunting purposes according to Irish Rail.

IRN has, it that the last one, 171, was laid up a few months ago...

Hungerford · 28-01-2012 11:09pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

IRN has, it that the last one, 171, was laid up a few months ago...

162, 171 and 175 are the resident works pilots at Inchicore apparently.

Cookie_Monster · 29-01-2012 10:55am

Hungerford wrote: »

162, 171 and 175 are the resident works pilots at Inchicore apparently.

I hope they are still in use, it'd be great to see the class get to 50.

What exactly do works pilots do, just tow stock in and out of the various workshops, not like there's much stock to be shunted these days.

dmcronin · 29-01-2012 1:42pm

steamengine wrote: »

As kids we used to refer to these locos as 'Yankees', where it came from I don't really know, but the same nickname (more or less) is referred to at the top of that article. Was the nickname initiated by the drivers one wonders ?

AFAIK 121' s and the 141's/181's were initially called 'Yanks' and renamed 'small Yanks' after the 071's came on stream, the latter being called (pre 201 class days) the 'Big Wans'!

There wasn't a lot of loco nicknames here compared to across the water. I've heard 201's being called 'spitters' or 'bricks' (probably a reference to their shape) before...and other terms from drivers which are unprintable.

Losty Dublin · 29-01-2012 8:09pm

The 001 class Locos went one better; all 60 actually got girls names allocated to them that stuck with them over their time in traffic.

dmcronin · 30-01-2012 10:18am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The 001 class Locos went one better; all 60 actually got girls names allocated to them that stuck with them over their time in traffic.

Weren't those the girls' names that got a naughty descriptive adjective added later by someone else?!

Niles · 30-01-2012 10:22am

I believe the preserved A39 was bestowed the name Sinéad...
I think the full list was posted on IRN a few years ago.

Judgement Day · 30-01-2012 2:41pm

"Brutal Bertha" is one that sticks in my mind but don't ask which loco.

dmcronin · 30-01-2012 6:16pm

I think they went along the lines of 'Septic Susan', 'Maggoty Maud', 'Nasty Nancy' etc, scrawled inside the cab.

Back to the 121's, can anyone confirm an unofficial naming of a 121 based in Inchicore called 'Pixie'?

newmug · 30-01-2012 7:02pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

146 is still in active service with the RPSI ITG, well they crashed it and it's being rebuilt, but they should get plenty more years out of her. Great photos in the Irish Mail with it missing most of the no2 end! 141 and 142 also persevered but I don't think they been used to much.

Karsini wrote: »

I haven't seen the photos, just saw 146 with a tarp over the number 2 end. I was due to drive her during the summer but it was called off. Never knew why until one of the local spotters told me what happened!

WTF??? I drove her in April (?) last year. I wonder did a paying customer crash her? I was terrified of doing just that!

Niles · 30-01-2012 7:03pm

Apart from the unofficial A class names, was there not an official proposal to give them Celtic names? (From the list I seen I think it would have resulted in the first three bearing the same names as the 800 class steam locos, might have even included some of the names proposed for the unbuilt 800 class locos).

30-01-2012 8:03pm

newmug wrote: »

WTF??? I drove her in April (?) last year. I wonder did a paying customer crash her? I was terrified of doing just that!

It was on a footplate experience course, but if I recall correctly it wasn't the customer.

04-02-2012 3:17am

Here's a 121-related question.

Why did the CIÉ engines have the 567CR engine variant? From what I'm reading online most locos used the 567C. The 567CR was mainly used in marine applications - the R meaning reverse rotation. Apparently the CRs used a non-standard crankshaft and camshaft so may have been converted to standard rotation at some point in their lives.

foggy_lad · 04-02-2012 4:01am

Karsini wrote: »

Here's a 121-related question.

Why did the CIÉ engines have the 567CR engine variant? From what I'm reading online most locos used the 567C. The 567CR was mainly used in marine applications - the R meaning reverse rotation. Apparently the CRs used a non-standard crankshaft and camshaft so may have been converted to standard rotation at some point in their lives.

Is it because CIE owned the canals and were wanting engines they could use in canal barges if the need ever arose?