School patronage

Absolam · 23-10-2014 10:16am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

My mind hasn't changed and your post proves my point rather nicely I think.

Good to know... let's keep challenging so

SpaceTime · 23-10-2014 11:25am

expectationlost wrote: »

Catholic educationalists have launch an attack on integrated schools sectorhttp://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/catholic-educationalists-have-launch-an-attack-on-integrated-schools-sector-30683573.html northern ireland

the CCMS has no shame

Their response deserves serious criticism. The NI Executive has a duty to combat a culture of sectarianism in the interest of ensuring peaceful coexistence of two divided communities in what has been a society that saw armed combat, terrorism and deaths as a result of it. Things have calmed down but there is still regular issues with violence and terrorism just on a much less dramatic level.

If there's anywhere that doesn't need schools separated on religious grounds it's Northern Ireland.

Institutionalising sectarianism through different facilities for different groups is part of the cause of the problem up there.

However, sometimes it seems the term "sectarianism" only applies when it's protestants doing the discrimination. Both sides are quite capable of it.

shruikan2553 · 23-10-2014 10:14pm

expectationlost wrote: »

Catholic educationalists have launch an attack on integrated schools sectorhttp://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/education/catholic-educationalists-have-launch-an-attack-on-integrated-schools-sector-30683573.html northern ireland

the CCMS has no shame

They have a point, they can have all the schools taken from them and made for everyone to help improve ties between Catholics and Protestants. Im sure they wont mind, need to think of those limited resources.

expectationlost · 26-10-2014 5:00pm

Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 22 October 2014
What are Committees?
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Social Protection
Role of Primary School Boards of Management: Discussion

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2014-10-22a.5

expectationlost · 26-10-2014 5:47pm

In a recent High Court decision Judge Iseult O'Malley stated:

The structure by which most schools in the country are run, with a professional staff managed by a voluntary board representative of the parents, the community, the patron and the staff, is an admirable one which gives an opportunity for all those groups to participate in this most important field. However, it is a model that does place burdens on those involved. The voluntary members of the board will often be people without any particular experience in the range of matters, from budgeting to health and safety to management of staff, for which they must take responsibility. It is necessary for the board to respect the expertise of its staff, while ensuring that it does not abdicate its responsibilities.

which ruling is this https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2014-10-22a.5

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/0/89D3EBBC15433CC680257BD5004B84D7
http://educationlawireland.com/board-of-managements-decision-to-demote-principal-and-appoint-new-one-quashed-by-the-high-court/

using a case the board lost for praise

expectationlost · 26-10-2014 5:54pm

Mr. Hubert Loftus: Department of Education and Skills The O'Keeffe case related to a period in the early 1970s. The key issue was that there were no child protection procedures and processes in place for such cases to be dealt with. That case was of its time, but there are lessons to be learned from it. The landscape in terms of how child protection is dealt with now - the procedures in place, Children First being on a statutory footing and the other legislation in place - is different. However, this is not to say there are not implications from the case that will be considered. I am not a legal person and cannot answer on every legal aspect of those implications.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael) The Louise O'Keeffe judgment is very interesting because, notwithstanding the fact that it was a different time, the issue remains that boards of management are aloof and isolated from what I would call the law of the country when things go wrong.

... https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2014-10-22a.5

Hotblack Desiato · 28-10-2014 10:30pm

Fr Michael Drumm, chairman of the Catholic Schools Partnership, tells us why we must keep teh ghey out of our schools:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/denominational-school-laws-must-strike-a-balance-1.1966018

Clearly, very many parents wish, in accordance with their constitutional rights, to provide this for their children through denominational schools. These schools – Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim – are founded on a religious ethos. Religious faith is experienced by believers as a source of hope and enlightenment (not a restriction or unintelligent), a gift (not a choice or acquisition) and a blessing (not a burden or constraint).

And what about the many parents who don't wish this? No mention of them at all...

Understood as such a fundamental human good, religious faith is something believers naturally want to share with others, especially their children. Many staff and students in denominational schools also experience faith as life-giving. The hope is that all members of the school community will experience the religious vision and ethos as an invitation, not a closed door.

...except to imply that it's our tough luck if we choose to reject the great things they are offering us :rolleyes:

lazygal · 28-10-2014 10:41pm

I received the gift of faith but I never wanted it.

recedite · 28-10-2014 10:58pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

And what about the many parents who don't wish this? No mention of them at all...

Well he does say

religious faith is something believers naturally want to share with others

Sharing is caring :pac:

Cantremember · 30-10-2014 1:19pm

The fundamental problem remains: a state which will not accept its responsibilities to offer a neutral education to its citizens.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-10-2014 10:32pm

Why the funding of second-level education is inequitable

Whinge about how so-called 'voluntary' secondary schools receive less funding.

Nothing about how religious patronage gives them a steady supply of young minds to indoctrinate, freedom to discriminate in hiring and enrolment with no questions asked, and generally the right to act in a way not compatible with a 20th century secular democracy.

Yes I know what century it is

RainyDay · 01-11-2014 6:43pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

[
Nothing about how religious patronage gives them a steady supply of young minds to indoctrinate, freedom to discriminate in hiring and enrolment with no questions asked, and generally the right to act in a way not compatible with a 20th century secular democracy.

And nothing about how voluntary schools routinely ignore the Dept's rule about sharing the school accounts with the school community, so that parents have some idea where their money is going.

SpaceTime · 02-11-2014 11:02am

Cantremember wrote: »

The fundamental problem remains: a state which will not accept its responsibilities to offer a neutral education to its citizens.

The state has a history of ignoring these things until sued costing us, the citizens loads of money due to its arrogant putting the church ahead of the people.

We're still paying dearly for decades of abuse that was turned a blind eye to by a state that wouldn't say 'boo' to the church or dare to question its role in providing what are state services.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-01-2015 12:56am

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/forum-head-calls-on-church-to-speed-up-schools-handover-1.2052481

The Department of Education needs to wield a “stick” against the Catholic Church if it wants to make progress on the divestment of schools to other patrons, according to the chairman of the forum on patronage and pluralism.

Prof John Coolahan says the church’s refusal to take “a proactive stance” in promoting the divestment of schools undermined the process from the outset, and he suggests cuts in school funding might be considered to concentrate minds.

Won't happen though will it, political suicide, and funding cuts only make kids suffer anyway, not the church.

To date, however, the church has yet to hand over a single primary school to another patron, although it did merge two Catholic schools to create a vacant property for Educate Together.

No surprises there, eh.

"Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain't worth a shit -- not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal."
- William S. Burroughs

These are two of 28 areas that have been earmarked for change on foot of parental surveys in select locations.

Oh great. No survey where we live. No ET primary. Every single one of the secondary schools in the area is both single-gender and catholic.

Prof Coolahan, who oversaw the forum’s main report in April 2012 and has contributed to subsequent update reports, suggests it was a mistake to leave the Catholic bishops, as patrons, to drive the reforms.

Well duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhh :rolleyes:

RainyDay · 03-01-2015 12:48pm

Money seems to be a big issue - surprise, surprise

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/segregation-concerns-over-transfer-of-school-patronage-1.2052351?page=2

Arguing that the original plan is no longer realistic, he says “amalgamation is the way forward”. However, to achieve this, “financial supports need to be kept”. When schools merge, they find they can only access one set of grants rather than two, and if the department agreed to protect their collective funding , “it would help”, says Fr Drumm.

Why on earth would anyone expect one school to access two sets of grants?

Hotblack Desiato · 03-01-2015 1:46pm

It shows how ineffecient our education system balkanised along religious and gender lines is.

SpaceTime · 03-01-2015 1:57pm

The main thing is that all the vested interests must be appeased at all costs.

Educational services are just secondary to all that.

lazygal · 03-01-2015 2:53pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It shows how ineffecient our education system balkanised along religious and gender lines is.

And how long the teachers and their unions have put up with it. They'll shout and roar about change but never seem to bother shouting about the civil rights of their members and the pupils they serve.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-01-2015 6:39pm

More schools means more principals, €€€€

Hotblack Desiato · 04-01-2015 3:00am

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/catholic-first-school-admissions-policies-may-be-illegal-1.2053401

School admissions policies run on a “Catholic first” basis may be in breach of both equality legislation and the Constitution, the State’s equality watchdog has been told.

A report commissioned by the Equality Authority – now part of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (IHREC) – argues that article 44.2.4 of the Constitution puts an onus on Catholic schools to demonstrate exactly why positive discrimination in admissions is necessary to maintain their ethos.

The report, authored by Fergus Ryan, a lecturer in law at DIT, says: “In relation to the Catholic First policy, there is certainly at the very least a case to be answered that in its potential application to schools in receipt of state funding, the policy may be in breach of the Constitution . . . by excluding children from state-funded schools on the basis that they intend to exercise a constitutional right not to attend religious instruction therein.”

The constitution does not mention ethos, that's a fabrication of the Equal Status Act.

There is an explicit constitutional right to attend a state funded school without attending religious instruction at that school. There is no constitutional justification for favouring pupils of a certain religion or who do not choose to opt out.

SpaceTime · 04-01-2015 10:06pm

But sure you can ignore all constitutional articles that don't suit the established agenda.

The most important one is the 8th Amendment which will be enforced vigerously as it suits a ultra religious agenda.

The stuff about educational rights and religious freedom... Ah sure they probably didn't mean to put that in ... It's only decorative.

Same with that bit that extended the university constituency for the Seanad. I mean did anyone realllllly think they'd let plebs from redbrick institutions vote for senators? ? They'd probably stink the place up and get stains on the carpet!

That seems to be the attitude here. Some bits of the constitution have a lot more weight than others.

katydid · 04-01-2015 10:12pm

lazygal wrote: »

And how long the teachers and their unions have put up with it. They'll shout and roar about change but never seem to bother shouting about the civil rights of their members and the pupils they serve.

What do you suggest they do? They are only employees, they have no control over management.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:14pm

The other problem is that by the time parents would have had the case heard and appeals from the state etc the child would be finished school.
The single most frustrating thing for me being a parent of young children in Ireland is the passive religious stuff my peers all do because it's just the done thing, and how they continue that into the education of their children. It's so weird that a religious education is acceptable as normal by so many parents.

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:17pm

katydid wrote: »

What do you suggest they do? They are only employees, they have no control over management.

Maybe they could ask management to stop the legal discrimination against their colleagues who act outside ethos? Maybe they could support their gay or otherwise in contravention of ethos colleagues in other ways at teacher conferences by calling for change?

katydid · 04-01-2015 10:18pm

lazygal wrote: »

The other problem is that by the time parents would have had the case heard and appeals from the state etc the child would be finished school.
The single most frustrating thing for me being a parent of young children in Ireland is the passive religious stuff my peers all do because it's just the done thing, and how they continue that into the education of their children. It's so weird that a religious education is acceptable as normal by so many parents.

A lot of it is because they don't want to have to do the work themselves of giving their children a religious education. Heaven forbid they would get up early on a Sunday to take them to mass, or go out on a cold dark night to take them to communion or confirmation classes...

lazygal · 04-01-2015 10:24pm

katydid wrote: »

A lot of it is because they don't want to have to do the work themselves of giving their children a religious education. Heaven forbid they would get up early on a Sunday to take them to mass, or go out on a cold dark night to take them to communion or confirmation classes...

A lot of it is done allegedly because of the grandparents or some other such guff. In reality it's a handy way of having Big Days Out and rubbing a bit of Good Moral Stuff into children without having to think too deeply about it.

katydid · 04-01-2015 10:26pm

lazygal wrote: »

A lot of it is done allegedly because of the grandparents or some other such guff. In reality it's a handy way of having Big Days Out and rubbing a bit of Good Moral Stuff into children without having to think too deeply about it.

Yes. Lots of reasons. Very few of them to do with religious conviction.

Which is fine, but such options should not be available in state funded schools.

Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2015 2:25am

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe they could ask management to stop the legal discrimination against their colleagues who act outside ethos? Maybe they could support their gay or otherwise in contravention of ethos colleagues in other ways at teacher conferences by calling for change?

Fat chance. Teachers are one of the most conservative & rural groups in the country - the irish language requirement helps ensure that. DeV knew what he was doing... and our TDs are disproportionately rural teachers with Irish also, even those elected in urban areas.

katydid wrote: »

A lot of it is because they don't want to have to do the work themselves of giving their children a religious education. Heaven forbid they would get up early on a Sunday to take them to mass, or go out on a cold dark night to take them to communion or confirmation classes...

I agree wholeheartedly - a religious 'education' should require significant time and money opt-in on the part of those parents who desire it. Everyone else's children going through state funded schools should be spared all religious nonsense.

RainyDay · 05-01-2015 9:25am

katydid wrote: »

What do you suggest they do? They are only employees, they have no control over management.

Actually, they do. They have two people out of eight on the Board of Management - the principal and the teachers' nominee. That's a significant factor, and a great opportunity to influence the development of the school.

But by and large, they toe the patron's line.

katydid · 05-01-2015 10:37am

RainyDay wrote: »

Actually, they do. They have two people out of eight on the Board of Management - the principal and the teachers' nominee. That's a significant factor, and a great opportunity to influence the development of the school.

But by and large, they toe the patron's line.

The principal acts as secretary to the BOM, but is not part of it, as far as I know. He or she doesn't have voting rights. Not in my place of work anyway. I've been a teacher's rep on the BOM of my school. I can guarantee you that in my case, I had little or no influence. In the case of my workplace, the parents' places are taken by students themselves, as they are adults, and the politicians paid great heed to the students (presumably they would to the parents as well) but I might as well have been talking to the wind.

It's the parents are the ones here who have the influence, and they are the ones who could affect change, not only on the BOM but by voting with their feet. But they don't want to, because then they would have to take responsibility for the religious education of their children.

School patronage

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