Plumbing question?

darbar · 10-04-2014 2:29pm #1

Sorry if this is a stupid question or if this is the wrong place to ask this. I tried looking online for an answer.I know if you get any electricial work carried out on your house new legislations require that the electrician carrying out the work is a registered contractor with RECI for insurance purposes. I was just wondering is their a similar scheme in place for Plumbers I know you have to have to hire a registered gas installer. But if a plumbing job was carried out, a leak occurred and the resident puts in an insurance claim is there a prerequisite in place for what plumber you must hire to carry out domestic work?

Also another question with Irish Water adding a new dynamic and water meters coming in. Is their a requirements for plumbers carrying out work to be registered contractors or has that been decided yet? If a leak occurs with residents paying for water per litre and it went unnoticed e.g if a leak occured in the main water pipe to a house (very unlikely I know) but who would foot the bill? I think though with Irish Water coming in people will be more hesitant to carry out DIY plumbing so that must be a plus for ye :P.

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 12:21pm

There seems to be a lot of confusion about electricial work in the home & the new laws. I haven't posted enough posts yet to be allowed post a link so you'll have to google "Safe Electric" yourself. It states very clearly that the new laws only cover the fusebox. You are allowed get a handyman, plumber etc to move / put in extras sockets, lights, pull cord switch, replace electric showers etc so long as no work is carried out on the fusebox.
There is no legal requirement to issue a safe Ireland or reci cert for these jobs no is there a need to be an electrictian. A plumber can still repair / replace electric & power showers, pumps, elements in the hot press etc. Having said all that you do need to know what you are doing & an electrictian would be safer than most handymen.

Another thing that causes confusion is , just because someone is gas redgistered doesn't mean they are plumbers. Some have very little knowledge about plumbing. Some are Electricians belive it or not. There was an oap on Joe Duffy last year. She rang the Gas company & said her heating wasn't working. They made an appointment with her. Out comes Gas registered man, looks at the boiler & tells her its the pump. He then tells her he is not a plumber & cant do the pump on her heating system. She rings Gas company they say she has to pay for the visit from the fool that doesn't seem to know anything & then for another gas registered EXPERT to come out & replace her pump!
Certs & being registered doesn't beat real know how.

JohnnieK · 17-04-2014 2:48pm

At present there is nothing in place for plumbers.

At the moment my advice to you would be to ask questions.

First Qualifications, trade cert and the likes.
Second insurance details.
Third references.

I carry a folder with me showing my national craft certificate, my master plumber diploma (city & guild's ) my insurance details and any other certs i have.

I'm amazed at the amount of people that don't even ask if I'm a plumber let alone look for insurance.

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 3:14pm

Spot on Johnniek. All tradesmen should be able to show their insurance. The cheapest price isn't always the best. Ask yourself how can he be so cheap? what corners are being cut so he is the cheapest.

17-04-2014 3:26pm

Good questions OP and I have to say there is a great risk involved when having plumbing work done.

I often wondered why the unskilled can happily portray themselves as tradesmen meeting no real criteria and nothing or nobody stops them, sadly.

The unskilled should be doing community service not plumbing or gas fitting jobs, i'v recently seen four heating jobs that now require extensive and expensive work to put right the issues caused by card carring RGIs, the householders have no way of preventing these card carrying RGIs from continuing to cause their special brand of mayhem in other peoples homes or getting their money back for the terrible boiler installes.

There are lots of good/decent plumbers out there you just have to put the effort in to not getting caught by those pretenders who are given a free reign to rip you off .

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 3:55pm

gary71 I agree with you. The RGI is a rip off for plumbers. You must realise a lot of RGI are electricians, surveyers etc. They are qualifide to work on a gas line & gas boilers. Thats it. some have never done basic plumbing, cylinders, attic water tanks itc.
While there are a few good plumbers with the RGI, most are guys that can't get work as plumbers. There are more plumbers not with RGI than with them. Overall the better plumbers are not with RGI. They are busy enough without the Gas company. They have their loyal custom base built up after years of quality work. Two thirds of gas boilers installed last year were installed by non RGI installers. In most cases a better job though illigal just the same.

17-04-2014 5:38pm

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

gary71 I agree with you. The RGI is a rip off for plumbers. You must realise a lot of RGI are electricians, surveyers etc. They are qualifide to work on a gas line & gas boilers. Thats it. some have never done basic plumbing, cylinders, attic water tanks itc.
While there are a few good plumbers with the RGI, most are guys that can't get work as plumbers. There are more plumbers not with RGI than with them. Overall the better plumbers are not with RGI. They are busy enough without the Gas company. They have their loyal custom base built up after years of quality work. Two thirds of gas boilers installed last year were installed by non RGI installers. In most cases a better job though illigal just the same.

Is it national generalisation day

Your well of the mark there.

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 7:30pm

gary71 wrote: »

Is it national generalisation day

Your well of the mark there.

I didn't mean to offend here. My point is Joe public see RGI as being the experts in everything plumbing where in fact a lot of RGI are not plumbers at all. They are the experts in gas lines & boilers. That is it. If they have more of a plumbing knowledge it has nothing to do with the RGI badge that they bought. This gives clients a false sense of confidence in the tradesmen. That doesn't say that all RGI guys are not good. But a lot of them are really bad.

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 9:09pm

So true lads
Why cant we have a plumbing organisation instead of cutting each other throats to get a job
A tradesman under cut me the other day he put in a gas boiler for €250 labour only the other day madness

17-04-2014 9:11pm

The OP raised some very good points on the suitability of plumbers working in homes.

Anybody seeking to employ a tradesman is at risk unless questions like the ones Johnnyk mentioned are looked at so that skill/accountability is prioritised over price.

Now as RGIs are mentioned and that would be my area of expertise as i'v had many years of dealing with the aftermath of bad workmanship from plumbers and non plumbers.

Some of the points you've mentioned are old wives tales normally told by qualified plumbers who aren't RGIs and a little bit grumpy about the situation and is up there with the sparkies beliefs that they really make the best RGI's:eek:,

I deal with lots of RGIs from Horse Island to Derry, there are very good RGIs out there and not all of them are qualified plumbers so it's unfair to knock them.

But your absolutely right the RGI ID card is sadly meaningless and has led far to trusting customers to lose thousands because their beliefs in the system.

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 9:16pm

I'm RGii registered myself
Also OFTEC,SOLAR BIOMASS,HEAT PUMP AND ANYTHING ELSE I FORGOT TO MENTION

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 9:18pm

gary71 wrote: »

The OP raised some very good points on the suitability of plumbers working in homes.

Anybody seeking to employ a tradesman is at risk unless questions like the ones Johnnyk mentioned are looked at so that skill/accountability is prioritised over price.

Now as RGIs are mentioned and that would be my area of expertise as i'v had many years of dealing with the aftermath of bad workmanship from plumbers and non plumbers.

Some of the points you've mentioned are old wives tales normally told by qualified plumbers who aren't RGIs and a little bit grumpy about the situation and is up there with the sparkies beliefs that they really make the best RGI's:eek:,

I deal with lots of RGIs from Horse Island to Derry, there are very good RGIs out there and not all of them are qualified plumbers so it's unfair to knock them.

But your absolutely right the RGI ID card is sadly meaningless and has led far to trusting customers to lose thousands because their beliefs in the system.

You said what I was trying to say. I did say there are good RGI. My main point was the trust put in the RGI logo. I didn't mean to put down good RGI. But you have RGI electricians trying to install heating systems where they should be sticking to the boiler.

17-04-2014 9:24pm

richieburke01 wrote: »

I'm RGii registered myself
Also OFTEC,SOLAR BIOMASS,HEAT PUMP AND ANYTHING ELSE I FORGOT TO MENTION

Yep, powerflushing extraordinaire.

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 9:26pm

gary71 wrote: »

Yep, powerflushing extraordinaire.

Rainwater harvesting?

:-)

17-04-2014 9:27pm

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You said what I was trying to say. I did say there are good RGI. My main point was the trust put in the RGI logo. I didn't mean to put down good RGI. But you have RGI electricians trying to install heating systems where they should be sticking to the boiler.

You should feel sorry for me, I'm a City and Guilds gas service engineer:cool: and i'v got plumbers trying to be gas fitters:eek:

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 9:29pm

you forgot to mention Kane analyser extraordinaire

Sleeper12 · 17-04-2014 9:34pm

gary71 wrote: »

You should feel sorry for me, I'm a City and Guilds gas service engineer:cool: and i'v got plumbers trying to be gas fitters:eek:

It's scandalous how cheap some guys are doing boiler swaps. You'll be glad to hear that I gave up all plumbing & just stick to showers.

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 9:38pm

you forgot to mention Kane analyser extraordinaire

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 9:39pm

Sorry lads double post

17-04-2014 9:44pm

The bit about my job that I hate with a passion and didn't sign up for is explaining to customers that the boiler they've had fitted last year is damaged and then telling them the cost/work involved to do the job correctly, decent RGI suffer at the hands of these gangsters as we're painted with the same brush.

17-04-2014 11:37pm

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

I haven't posted enough posts yet to be allowed post a link so you'll have to google "Safe Electric" yourself. It states very clearly that the new laws only cover the fusebox.

This is incorrect, and very misleading.
Only a REC (Registered Electrical Contractor) is legally allowed to carry out any electrical work on a domestic installation with the exception of "Minor electrical works".
This is described in the "Restricted Works Decision Paper" as:

Minor Electrical Works
The CER when defining Controlled Electrical Work recognised that a certain amount of Do-It-Yourself (or “DIY”) electrical installation work is a feature of electrical installations in domestic premises in this country and generally involves “like for like” replacements of switches, sockets, lighting fittings and/or additions to an existing circuit. This work must also be in compliance with the National Wiring Rules. However, Minor Electrical Works are currently outside the scope of Controlled Electrical Works and also, under the definition, outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.

See link to Restricted Electrical Works Decision Paper

You are allowed get a handyman, plumber etc to move / put in extras sockets, lights, pull cord switch, replace electric showers etc so long as no work is carried out on the fusebox.

To be more specific, this work must be carried out by a "competent" person and must comply with the "National Rules for Electrical Installations", ET101.

Too many "handymen" with more confidence than ability have made unsafe modifications to electrical installations over the years.
Here are some statistics compiled by the ETCI on fatal electrical accidents:
http://www.etci.ie/accidents/tables.html

Another thing that causes confusion is , just because someone is gas redgistered doesn't mean they are plumbers. Some have very little knowledge about plumbing. Some are Electricians belive it or not. There was an oap on Joe Duffy last year. She rang the Gas company & said her heating wasn't working. They made an appointment with her. Out comes Gas registered man, looks at the boiler & tells her its the pump. He then tells her he is not a plumber & cant do the pump on her heating system. She rings Gas company they say she has to pay for the visit from the fool that doesn't seem to know anything & then for another gas registered EXPERT to come out & replace her pump!

Sounds to me like you are suggesting that it is best to get qualified plumbers to do plumbing work. Perhaps it may be best to get electricians to do electrical work rather than a "handyman" that has little or no understanding of the regulations ?

I can understand a some minor works (as described by CER above) being carried out by a competent person, but you are suggesting that anybody can do just about any electrical work that does not involve working on the distribution board.
A virtual "free for all" is not the solution.

richieburke01 · 17-04-2014 11:44pm

Don`t be like that lads
Plumbers and Electricians in the one room

shane 007 · 17-04-2014 11:46pm

The key being "competent". That is somebody who is suitably trained, suitably experienced & suitably qualified to do so. Qualified can be qualified by experience but they must be able to carry out the defined works to industry best practice & would therefore have the correct knowledge of those standards.

17-04-2014 11:58pm

shane 007 wrote: »

The key being "competent". That is somebody who is suitably trained, suitably experienced & suitably qualified to do so.

As it happens the ETCI (Electro-Technical Council of Ireland) spell out what they mean by a "competent person" as follows:

A: Competent Person:For the purposes of the relevant statutory provisions, a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size or hazards (or both of them) of the undertaking or establishment in which he or she undertakes work, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken.

In order to carry out the certification for the maintenance and inspection of Portable equipment, a competent person must possess the following:
(a) Sufficient training
(b) Experience
(c) Knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work.

This means that the three elements must be satisfied by the following:
(a) Sufficient appropriate training is of a standard demonstrated by being qualified to the National Craft Certificate (electrical) level or equivalent;
(b) Have sufficient experience (a newly qualified electrician may not have sufficient experience, may require additional training and supervision);
(c) Must possess knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work; must be in a position to carry out knowledgeable testing with appropriate test instruments and be in a position to analyse the results and complete appropriate test record sheets.

At present a qualified experienced electrician is competent to carry out testing and verification.
A qualified electrician who has fulfilled (a) (b) and (c) above is competent to carry out testing and verification.

Link:
http://www.etci.ie/safety/faq.html#ComPers

Qualified can be qualified by experience but they must be able to carry out the defined works to industry best practice & would therefore have the correct knowledge of those standards.

Perhaps, but a "qualified electrician" or a "qualified plumber" is someone that has completed a recognised apprenticeship and passed the necessary exams. On successful completion of an apprenticeship, a FETAC Advanced Certificate is awarded; this is recognised internationally as the requirement for craftsperson status. This full time apprenticeship takes 4 calendar years to complete, no shortcuts, no excuses.

18-04-2014 12:07am

Think of the mayhem and silliness that could be prevented if the only persons allowed to work in any trade were time served apprentices who then become qualified tradesmen/women.

If only.

Sir Arthur Daley · 18-04-2014 12:08am

tpmcompany1 wrote: »

You are allowed get a handyman, plumber etc to move / put in extras sockets, lights, pull cord switch, replace electric showers etc so long as no work is carried out on the fusebox.

Highlighted in bold, is this correct?

shane 007 · 18-04-2014 12:10am

2011 wrote: »

Perhaps, but a "qualified electrician" or a "qualified plumber" is someone that has completed a recognised apprenticeship and passed the necessary exams. This takes 4 calendar years to complete, no shortcuts, no excuses.

I agree, but you will most likely find that it is a standard set out by the ECTI & not a law.
If there is harm or negligence caused by works carried out inappropriately, then you will find that e ECTI will only have an advisory role & it will be the HSA that will be taking the legal action route.
Unless, of course, the culprit was working within the consumer unit, then it will be a criminal offence & that would be pursued by the CER.

Sir Arthur Daley · 18-04-2014 12:12am

shane 007 wrote: »

Unless, of course, the culprit was working within the consumer unit

The culprit could be caught in alot of other situations.

18-04-2014 12:13am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Highlighted in bold, is this correct?

As above, it is permitted for this work to be carried out by a "competent person" (see description above) and the must comply with the "National Rules for Electrical Installations", ET101.

18-04-2014 12:18am

shane 007 wrote: »

I agree, but you will most likely find that it is a standard set out by the ECTI & not a law.

The Restricted Electrical Works is law.
Break it and if pursued you can face criminal prosecution.

Sir Arthur Daley · 18-04-2014 12:19am

2011 wrote: »

As above, it is permitted for this work to be carried out by a "competent person" (see description above) and the must comply with the "National Rules for Electrical Installations", ET101.

Differs to the conversation I had with my Ecssa inspector last week.

18-04-2014 12:21am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Differs to the conversation I had with my Ecssa inspector last week.

I have backed up my posts with a link to CER's "Restricted Works Decision Paper" so you don't have to take my word for it.

shane 007 · 18-04-2014 12:23am

Sheesh, typical electricians come into the Plumbing Forum & start arguing with each other on a Plumbing Question thread!

richieburke01 · 18-04-2014 12:27am

I no Yeah:)

Sir Arthur Daley · 18-04-2014 12:27am

2011 wrote: »

I have backed up my posts with a link to CER's "Restricted Works Decision Paper" so you don't have to take my word for it.

I cant back up mine unless you want me to get my inspector to register on boards.ie, must ring my inspector to state his mistake.

18-04-2014 12:31am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I cant back up mine unless you want me to get my inspector to register on boards.ie, must ring my inspector to state his mistake.

If you could please, I always wanted to ban me a inspector:D

18-04-2014 12:32am

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

I cant back up mine unless you want me to get my inspector to register on boards.ie, must ring my inspector to state his mistake.

Regardless, of what he says CER's "Restricted Works Decision Paper" is the law and this document is very clear.
I pasted the relevant part into post #21.

shane 007 · 18-04-2014 12:33am

2011 wrote: »

The Restricted Electrical Works is law.
Break it and if pursued you can face criminal prosecution.

I think you may have misread my post. I said any works outside the consumer unit are a standard & nobody doing so is not committing a criminal offence. If they cause harm or negligence, they would be pursued by the HSA. I then went on to say that if the culprit does work within the consumer unit, he is indeed breaking the law & it would be the CER that would pursue this.
The ECTI in all cases would only be there on an advisory role. This is identical as RGII. All illegal gas works is pursued by the CER & RGII is involved as an advisory.

18-04-2014 12:34am

On that note I will leave you plumbers alone

Goodnight

DGOBS · 18-04-2014 8:19am

A: Competent Person:For the purposes of the relevant statutory provisions, a person is deemed to be a competent person where, having regard to the task he or she is required to perform and taking account of the size or hazards (or both of them) of the undertaking or establishment in which he or she undertakes work, the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken.

In order to carry out the certification for the maintenance and inspection of Portable equipment, a competent person must possess the following:
(a) Sufficient training
(b) Experience
(c) Knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work.

This means that the three elements must be satisfied by the following:
(a) Sufficient appropriate training is of a standard demonstrated by being qualified to the National Craft Certificate (electrical) level or equivalent;
(b) Have sufficient experience (a newly qualified electrician may not have sufficient experience, may require additional training and supervision);
(c) Must possess knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work; must be in a position to carry out knowledgeable testing with appropriate test instruments and be in a position to analyse the results and complete appropriate test record sheets.

At present a qualified experienced electrician is competent to carry out testing and verification.
A qualified electrician who has fulfilled (a) (b) and (c) above is competent to carry out testing and verification.

This quotation only refers to competency in 'general terms' in the first paragraph.
The rest of it is only competence for the testing etc of portable equipment

18-04-2014 2:06pm

DGOBS wrote: »

This quotation only refers to competency in 'general terms' in the first paragraph.

Agreed, but this statement (extracted from that very paragraph) says it all in very clear unambiguous language: ".....the person possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge appropriate to the nature of the work to be undertaken."

I think this says it all, why would you want anything more specific?
What would be gained by more detail?
This is a simple statement that gets the point accross.

The rest of it is only competence for the testing etc of portable equipment

I posted that after midnight, what can I say...? I got carried away with my copy and pasting

This does not take from my point which is dealt with in the first paragraph, which is: A person carrying out electrical work should be competent.

DGOBS · 18-04-2014 2:31pm

Agreed, the first paragraph is a great definition of competency

Plumbing question?

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