Be careful... This is a man....

Mr Freeze · 18-05-2012 10:20am

bluewolf wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/18/article-2146196-1326C87D000005DC-440_634x397.jpg

very pretty indeed

She doesn't look at all manly to me.

I'd tap that! More than likely get knocked back by her though. :pac:

noddyone2 · 18-05-2012 10:27am

Why would you need to be careful? And it should read 'was' a man.

sbsquarepants · 18-05-2012 10:27am

bluewolf wrote: »

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/18/article-2146196-1326C87D000005DC-440_634x397.jpg

very pretty indeed

I definitely would!
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, so i'll ride it, eh, like a duck:eek:

Kooli · 18-05-2012 10:27am

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's terrible and should stop, but it's nothing to do with anything I just said.
My point was, firstly, that the impression I got was that the OP was just being light hearted. If anything what he said pointed to the overall success of her efforts to switch gender as it clearly took him by surprise.
And secondly, that I just think transgender is a more accurate term than woman, mainly because our sex is determined by our chromosomes.
At no point did i advocate discrimination, inequality, harassment or abuse.

I would think that 'male' and 'female' are words that talk about biological sex and chromosone.
Man and woman are gender. Transgender is not a third category along with man and woman. It is a second category along with cisgender (cisgender being someone who's expression of gender matches their biological sex).

So I am a cisgender woman. She is a transgender woman. But we're both women.

And although the intent may have been 'lighthearted', it's always important to call people out on lighthearted 'banter' that can potentially be hurtful, discriminatory, oppressive or contribute to the perpetuation of stereotypes about certain groups i.e. 'be careful' kind of feeds into the stereotype that transgender women are out to deceive and trap men.

Not that the OP needs to be berated or anything like that. Just nice to highlight that there are a group of people out there who are frequently harassed, abused and dehumanised, and we all should make sure we're not contributing to that. And our views about what the 'accurate terms' are are probably not as important as their views.

Annasopra · 18-05-2012 10:32am

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's terrible and should stop, but it's nothing to do with anything I just said.

At no point did i advocate discrimination, inequality, harassment or abuse.

Agreed - the attitude of the OP and other posters is very discriminatory and while these attitudes are seen as acceptable and funny then daily harassment of trans people will continue. Transphobia is a disgusting reality. It includes verbal and physical harassment and people self harm and commit suicide as a result of it. It must be challenged as strongly as other forms of discrimination.
Koolio explained Transgender/Cisgender quite well

Kolido · 18-05-2012 10:32am

The King of Moo wrote: »

No. Obviously it would take a little getting used to, but they'd still be the same person.

If I was getting into a relationship with a person I would certainly want to know beforehand.
Call me narrow minded if you most, but I doubt I would even date a women who was born a man.

Links234 · 18-05-2012 10:35am

Oh. This again.

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 10:40am

mango salsa wrote: »

Agreed - the attitude of the OP and other posters is very discriminatory and while these attitudes are seen as acceptable and funny then daily harassment of trans people will continue. Transphobia is a disgusting reality. It includes verbal and physical harassment and people self harm and commit suicide as a result of it. It must be challenged as strongly as other forms of discrimination.
Koolio explained Transgender/Cisgender quite well

I totally agree that nobody should be physically or mentally abused, but people are allowed to disagree and voice their opinion on topics such as this.

I certainly don't abuse anyone. Even in a heated argument I wouldn't insult people because of their physical appearance because I am very against bullying.

But personally, I do not agree that homosexuality or people changing their gender is right, this is my personal opinion. I don't insult, abuse, discriminate against these people, I just don't agree with it.

If I get abuse for having a differing opinion then those people are as bad as the homo/transphobes.

18-05-2012 10:44am

Kev_2012 wrote: »

But personally, I do not agree that homosexuality or people changing their gender is right, this is my personal opinion. I don't insult, abuse, discriminate against these people, I just don't agree with it.
.

Yeah I don't agree with men. That's my personal opinion. Being male is wrong.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 18-05-2012 10:47am

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah I don't agree with men. That's my personal opinion. Being male is wrong.

so long as you dont abuse, insult or discriminate against them.. what's the harm?

Crann na Beatha · 18-05-2012 10:49am

This post has been deleted.

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 10:50am

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah I don't agree with men. That's my personal opinion. Being male is wrong.

Was waiting for answer like this. Listen if you're not going to add anything constructive then don't reply ya? :rolleyes:

paddyandy · 18-05-2012 10:52am

....and so shall it be in those days......as was in the days....

18-05-2012 10:53am

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Was waiting for answer like this. Listen if you're not going to add anything constructive then don't reply ya? :rolleyes:

Yeah, posting nonsense like you did is very constructive. So is using rolleyes at people.

ya :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 10:56am

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah, posting nonsense like you did is very constructive. So is using rolleyes at people.

ya :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How is it nonsense? It's my opinion. I am entitled to an opinion aren't I? I think AC/DC are a sh!t band, although a lot of other people like them. Does this make me wrong? I fail to see why you can't comprehend this

Kooli · 18-05-2012 11:04am

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so long as you dont abuse, insult or discriminate against them.. what's the harm?

The harm would be if men were a group that were routinely abused, insulted and discriminated against. The 'harmless' opinion that you continue to voice then becomes a contribution to that culture of oppression and is seen as support by those who are perpetrating the oppression, whether that is your intention or not.

the_syco · 18-05-2012 11:04am

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Would it bother you if you started meeting a transgender person and a year down the line she/he told you that they were born a different sex?

Only if I wanted kids. And I'd react to it the same way that I'd react to a woman saying she didn't want kids a year down the line.

bluewolf wrote: »

Being male is wrong.

Makes it even more fun

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Listen if you're not going to add anything constructive then don't reply ya?

But, but, but; you haven't added anything constructive. At all. In this entire thread.

Napper Hawkins · 18-05-2012 11:05am

You only have to tolerate something, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

As for me, fair play to her.

Kooli · 18-05-2012 11:06am

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

You only have to tolerate something, doesn't mean you have to accept it.

As for me, fair play to her.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction here. I would think that people do actually have to accept it because it has nothing to do with them and they have no influence or control?

DubArk · 18-05-2012 11:09am

Kev_2012 wrote: »

But personally, I do not agree that homosexuality or people changing their gender is right, this is my personal opinion. I don't insult, abuse, discriminate against these people, I just don't agree with it.

If I get abuse for having a differing opinion then those people are as bad as the homo/transphobes.

Kev_2012 wrote: »

How is it nonsense? It's my opinion. I am entitled to an opinion aren't I? I think AC/DC are a sh!t band, although a lot of other people like them. Does this make me wrong? I fail to see why you can't comprehend this

An opinion on music choice and been a bigot have nothing in common.

Dudess · 18-05-2012 11:13am

A person can't help how they feel about certain stuff though. If they try to understand it and don't give the people in question any abuse, that's better than simply refusing to have an open mind, IMO.

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 11:13am

Kooli wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand the distinction here. I would think that people do actually have to accept it because it has nothing to do with them and they have no influence or control?

Because it does have something to do with them? For example, I tolerate these things but don't agree, therefore, if I have kids, I'm going to tell them to be courteous to everyone but that being gay or transgender is wrong(remember, in my opinion ya?), and that it exists in this world, you can't do anything about it, so just get on with your own life and don't let these things affect you.

I don't care what people do as long as it doesn't affect my family, friends or myself.

CreepingDeath · 18-05-2012 11:15am

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so long as you dont abuse, insult or discriminate against them.. what's the harm?

Absolutely

The topic of gays and transsexuals is very subjective, and everyone is fully entitled to their own opinions and perception of the world.

We're all entitled to arbitrarily break up people into groups in our minds, and decide whether we relate to that group or not.

There's already legislation to stop people being discriminating in the media, in the workplace, violence, inciting hatred etc. So what is left?

So let me ask you, if you don't abuse, insult or discriminate against someone, but do hold a different opinion.... where are you doing wrong?

It might upset them yes, but where do you draw the line on differing subjective opinions, when that can include religion, politics, how to raise children etc.

IamtheWalrus · 18-05-2012 11:21am

If the boys at the back of my old school bus started a thread this would be it.

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 11:27am

the_syco wrote: »

But, but, but; you haven't added anything constructive. At all. In this entire thread.

Adding my opinion to a topic on a DISCUSSION FORUM is constructive. People, like you, ridiculing me and dismissing the opinion isn't constructive. Simples.

matt-dublin · 18-05-2012 11:28am

My post is not supposed to be taken in a derogirtory manner, its more of a wow.

A lost of post op transexuals you can really tell they were a male, but she looks a lot more like a natural woman than most.

I apologise for any offence taken but to clarify i am not transgenderphoic and to be honest I couldn't care less what someone whats to do with their body. I was posting this more in amazement at the success. If someone's taken offence to the title, get over it, it was meant in a light hearted way and yes, i should have probably should have said was a man.

Morag · 18-05-2012 11:31am

Links234 wrote: »

Oh. This again.

Ok same stupid start to the thread but, this is not the same reaction I've seen
on this topic before in ah. It is nice to see the OP being told cop on.

Mr. Presentable · 18-05-2012 11:34am

Beruthiel wrote: »

She is a woman now and no longer a man.

Only on the outside. I'm sorry but you can tart up an MR2 to look like a Ferrari and most people won't see the difference, but it is still a Toyota.

prinz · 18-05-2012 11:38am

So is she going to win or what? Surely that's the most important question of the day..

..and good choice of name, Jenna, I like it.

Dudess · 18-05-2012 11:42am

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Only on the outside. I'm sorry but you can tart up an MR2 to look like a Ferrari and most people won't see the difference, but it is still a Toyota.

Ah in fairness there's more change than just a superficial one.

Mr. Presentable · 18-05-2012 11:48am

Dudess wrote: »

Ah in fairness there's more change than just a superficial one.

I have no problem with people doing what they need to feel comfortable, but the internals are male. If a forensic pathologist examined the skeleton it would be male. The organs internal are male. It's only the outer (and possibly some of the electrics) that's female.

**Vai** · 18-05-2012 11:57am

The title Miss Universe Canada confuses me more than the point of this thread.

DubArk · 18-05-2012 11:58am

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Because it does have something to do with them? For example, I tolerate these things but don't agree, therefore, if I have kids, I'm going to tell them to be courteous to everyone but that being gay or transgender is wrong(remember, in my opinion ya?), and that it exists in this world, you can't do anything about it, so just get on with your own life and don't let these things affect you.

I don't care what people do as long as it doesn't affect my family, friends or myself.

If you have kids?? LOL you’re going to fill their heads with your bigoted cra*. That’s sort of sad. I pity them. The fact that you're protecting your family and friends too from the Homo’s and Transgenders is very noble of you….. Why not the blacks while you’re at it?!?!

(remember, in my opinion ya?),

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 12:05pm

DubArk wrote: »

If you have kids?? LOL you’re going to fill their heads with your bigoted cra*. That’s sort of sad. I pity them. The fact that you're protecting you family and friend too from the Homo’s and Transgenders is very noble of you….. Why not the blacks while you’re at it?!?!

(remember, in my opinion ya?),

So I raise them so that 1 is gay and another is transgender so just to please the PC brigade? Just because I would like to someday raise a traditional family, that automatically makes me a bigot? Get a grip.

And I'm not a racist in any way shape or form so why would I do that? Interracial marriage for me is a non issue, chalk and cheese tbh.

Lapin · 18-05-2012 12:08pm

I knew he was a bloke before I looked at the photo.

Kooli · 18-05-2012 12:20pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

So I raise them so that 1 is gay and another is transgender so just to please the PC brigade? Just because I would like to someday raise a traditional family, that automatically makes me a bigot? Get a grip.

And I'm not a racist in any way shape or form so why would I do that? Interracial marriage for me is a non issue, chalk and cheese tbh.

What if one of your kids IS gay or transgender? (or do you think only PC-brigade liberal families have gay or transgender kids?)

It would to be so, so difficult for them to manage that. Well, it's difficult anyway for most kids in those circumstances, but it would be made 1000 times more difficult if they don't have a supportive parent to turn to.

It doesn't make you a bigot that you want to raise a traditional family. It makes you a bigot that you would tell your children that being gay or transgender is wrong. And you be creating new mini-bigots who can grow up to do the same.

DubArk · 18-05-2012 12:21pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

So I raise them so that 1 is gay and another is transgender so just to please the PC brigade? Just because I would like to someday raise a traditional family, that automatically makes me a bigot? Get a grip.

And I'm not a racist in any way shape or form so why would I do that? Interracial marriage for me is a non issue, chalk and cheese tbh.

“being gay or transgender is wrong!!!” That’s your opinion and it is comparative to bigoted people in any shape or form including racists!! My point exactly… I’m glad you’re not a racist and I’m sure you’re NOT but your opinions on Gay and Transgender people are as repugnant. You need to get a grip and listen to what you’re really saying. Wrapping yourself in the blanket of the Traditional Family as some sort of an excuse for been a bigot is mirrors and smoke.

Most Gay and Transgender people have been raised in a “Traditional Family”!!

Kooli · 18-05-2012 12:24pm

Sharrow wrote: »

Ok same stupid start to the thread but, this is not the same reaction I've seen
on this topic before in ah. It is nice to see the OP being told cop on.

I would hope that the tone hasn't been 'cop on'. I think it's more helpful if people are called our respectfully on saying things that are homophobic/transphobic/sexist/racist etc. Most people's intentions are good and if they can be shown why comments might be problematic, they are often willing to listen.

But if people who make these kinds of comments are shouted down or told to cop on, they will become defensive of their position and no one gets anywhere.

We are ALL capable of thinking sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic things no matter how educated we are in these matters or how much we wish to be inclusive. If we continue this false divide between 'transphobic people who say transphobic things' and 'the rest of us right-on folk who would never say anything transphobic', it makes it harder for people to examine their own transphobia when it arises.

Kev_2012 · 18-05-2012 12:28pm

Kooli wrote: »

What if one of your kids IS gay or transgender? (or do you think only PC-brigade liberal families have gay or transgender kids?)

It would to be so, so difficult for them to manage that. Well, it's difficult anyway for most kids in those circumstances, but it would be made 1000 times more difficult if they don't have a supportive parent to turn to.

It doesn't make you a bigot that you want to raise a traditional family. It makes you a bigot that you would tell your children that being gay or transgender is wrong. And you be creating new mini-bigots who can grow up to do the same.

Well I wouldn't happy of course if they were gay, I don't think I could associate myself with them if transgender (well it would be very very very difficult).

I would be happy if they carried those values on to their kids.

DubArk wrote: »

“being gay or transgender is wrong!!!” That’s your opinion and it is comparative to bigoted people in any shape or form including racists!! My point exactly… I’m glad you’re not a racist and I’m sure you’re NOT but your opinions on Gay and Transgender people are as repugnant. You need to get a grip and listen to what you’re really saying. Wrapping yourself in the blanket of the Traditional Family as some sort of an excuse for been a bigot is mirrors and smoke.

Most Gay and Transgender people have been raised in a “Traditional Family”!!

Can I ask you a simple question? Do you think paedophilia is wrong? That is also legally a psychological condition that they can't help.

Obviously it is wrong, but I find it difficult to differentiate being gay or transgender with a paedophile if they are all supposed to be all psychological conditions that people are supposedly born with. That is just another reason why I don't agree with homosexuality or being transgender.

I'd like a proper discussion on this please, no smart answers or calling me a bigot.

KamiKazeKitten · 18-05-2012 12:36pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't happy of course if they were gay, I don't think I could associate myself with them if transgender (well it would be very very very difficult).

I would be happy if they carried those values on to their kids.

You couldn't associate with them? Why not?
They're still your child after all, does them being transgender suddenly change all that?

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Can I ask you a simple question? Do you think paedophilia is wrong? That is also legally a psychological condition that they can't help.

Obviously it is wrong, but I find it difficult to differentiate being gay or transgender with a paedophile if they are all supposed to be all psychological conditions that people are supposedly born with. That is just another reason why I don't agree with homosexuality or being transgender.

I'd like a proper discussion on this please, no smart answers or calling me a bigot.

Oh my.

Transgenders are not harming anyone by becoming a man/woman.
Gays are not harming anyone by having sex with their own sex.
Paedophiles prey on children.

That clear enough for you? I worry that you even have to ask.

I do despair sometimes.

Kooli · 18-05-2012 12:36pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

.

Obviously it is wrong, but I find it difficult to differentiate being gay or transgender with a paedophile if they are all supposed to be all psychological conditions that people are supposedly born with. That is just another reason why I don't agree with homosexuality or being transgender.

I'd like a proper discussion on this please, no smart answers or calling me a bigot.

OK so with paedophilia, if the paedophile acts on their desires it is child abuse. This usually means irreparable damage to a child who has to engage in a non-consensual sexual act before they are emotionally or sexually mature.

With someone who is gay or transgender....who gets hurt? Where is the abuse?

With paedophilia, there is risk to others. HUGE risk to vulnerable children who must be protected by other adults.
With LGBT it's just about an individual doing what's right for them in their own personal life and with other consenting adults. It has no impact on anyone else. It is none of our business.

Surely you see that?

El_Dangeroso · 18-05-2012 12:38pm

We need a name for an equivalent law to Godwin's that states that all arguments about homosexuality or transgender will have some eejit comparing it to paedophilia.

Any ideas for a name?

DubArk · 18-05-2012 12:39pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Can I ask you a simple question? Do you think paedophilia is wrong? That is also legally a psychological condition that they can't help.

Obviously it is wrong, but I find it difficult to differentiate being gay or transgender with a paedophile if they are all supposed to be all psychological conditions that people are supposedly born with. That is just another reason why I don't agree with homosexuality or being transgender.

I'd like a proper discussion on this please, no smart answers or calling me a bigot.

WOW! Now you’re putting Pedophiles into the same mix, more smoke and mirrors. You’ll find that Consenting Adults are the key words here. I’m not going to insult myself or Gay and Transgender people by entertaining your openly bigoted stance. I hope you're just Trolling for your sake!!

krudler · 18-05-2012 12:42pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't happy of course if they were gay, I don't think I could associate myself with them if transgender (well it would be very very very difficult).

I would be happy if they carried those values on to their kids.

Can I ask you a simple question? Do you think paedophilia is wrong? That is also legally a psychological condition that they can't help.

Obviously it is wrong, but I find it difficult to differentiate being gay or transgender with a paedophile if they are all supposed to be all psychological conditions that people are supposedly born with. That is just another reason why I don't agree with homosexuality or being transgender.

I'd like a proper discussion on this please, no smart answers or calling me a bigot.

Thats just fcuking idiotic.

prinz · 18-05-2012 12:44pm

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

You couldn't associate with them? Why not? They're still your child after all, does them being transgender suddenly change all that?

Why would it suprise you that someone would have difficulty coming to terms with it? Perhaps you missed Chazz Bono on the TV at the weekend describing the way Cher had ups and downs with dealing with his case. It's not simply a case of 100% supportive or 100% against for the vast majority of people.. even those going through it.

Kooli wrote: »

We are ALL capable of thinking sexist/racist/homophobic/transphobic things no matter how educated we are in these matters or how much we wish to be inclusive. If we continue this false divide between 'transphobic people who say transphobic things' and 'the rest of us right-on folk who would never say anything transphobic', it makes it harder for people to examine their own transphobia when it arises.

+1 many times over.

suicide_circus · 18-05-2012 1:03pm

Call me backward, old fashioned, bigoted or ignorant if you will but if I was about to get jiggy with a girl and she said "by the way I used to have a cock but dont worry, it's inside out now" it would give me pause.

Bad Panda · 18-05-2012 1:04pm

Thread should've just had 'Careful now...' in the title.

Beruthiel · 18-05-2012 1:04pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

if I have kids, I'm going to tell them to be courteous to everyone but that being gay or transgender is wrong

Lets hope that one of your kids don't turn out to be gay or transgender then.
Also, teaching them bigotry is a sad reflection on you as a would be parent.

KamiKazeKitten · 18-05-2012 1:06pm

prinz wrote: »

Why would it suprise you that someone would have difficulty coming to terms with it? Perhaps you missed Chazz Bono on the TV at the weekend describing the way Cher had ups and downs with dealing with his case. It's not simply a case of 100% supportive or 100% against for the vast majority of people.. even those going through it.

It doesn't totally surprise me, but I'm curious to find out his point of view on it.
I wouldn't expect him to immediately get used to it of course but from his comparison of transgenderism with paedophilia I want to hear what action he would take if his child was trans.

Logical Fallacy · 18-05-2012 1:06pm

Kev_2012 wrote: »

So I raise them so that 1 is gay and another is transgender so just to please the PC brigade? Just because I would like to someday raise a traditional family, that automatically makes me a bigot? Get a grip.

And I'm not a racist in any way shape or form so why would I do that? Interracial marriage for me is a non issue, chalk and cheese tbh.

lol, you don't have much of a say in what orientation your children will have.

You could very well end up with a gay child.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

We need a name for an equivalent law to Godwin's that states that all arguments about homosexuality or transgender will have some eejit comparing it to paedophilia.

Any ideas for a name?

Lets just call it Kev's Law.

Be careful... This is a man....

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