Loose chippings

AugustusMinimus · 20-10-2014 4:55pm #1

In this country, on Local roads and on a lot of Regional roads, county councils still persist with laying down a layer of tar and then scattering a layer of chippings on top.

At this stage, are we the only country in Europe to persist with this outdated method of surfacing roads ? In my mind, it is quite fool hardy.

- The road surface tends to be rough and uneven
- In car noise is far worse than over tarmac sections of road
- Tyre wear has to be much worse
- These sections must be more prone to pot holes and general degradation
- The inconvenience of 6 months of loose chippings on sections of road

Is it time we stopped using this method and advance from the Stone Age ?

ardmacha · 20-10-2014 6:07pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

In this country, on Local roads and on a lot of Regional roads, county councils still persist with laying down a layer of tar and then scattering a layer of chippings on top.

At this stage, are we the only country in Europe to persist with this outdated method of surfacing roads ? In my mind, it is quite fool hardy.

- The road surface tends to be rough and uneven

Depends on the quality of the work.

- In car noise is far worse than over tarmac sections of road
- Tyre wear has to be much worse

yes. But grip is good.

- These sections must be more prone to pot holes and general degradation

A sealed road will be less prone to potholes.

- The inconvenience of 6 months of loose chippings on sections of road

Quality of work, as in 1).

Is it time we stopped using this method and advance from the Stone Age

Everything has its place. Will you pay more for complete tarmac resurfacing every time?

Decoda · 20-10-2014 6:40pm

I think the link below from Hampshire County Council in the UK explains the reason why we use Surface Dressing so widely in Ireland and the UK. It has pros and cons, the same as any road surface but for price per sq. Metre it enables local authorities to resurface a lot more roads than using other resurfacing products.......

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/roads/hampshire-roadworks/surface-dressing/surface-dressing-advantages.htm

Surface Dressing - Advantages and Disadvantages

The advantages of Surface Dressing are:

It is one of the fastest and most economical ways of sealing cracks (bitumen seals the existing surface against the ingress of harmful moisture) reducing the likelihood of potholes forming;

It reduces the harmful effects of the sun’s UV rays, slowing down the oxidisation process;

It can be applied to any class of road or footpath;

It improves grip (chippings provide a new, skid-resistant surface);

It reduces the risk of aquaplaning on roads, thereby helping to reduce the possibility of accidents;

It can extend the life of a road by up to 10 years;

It minimises the use of scarce aggregates;

It maximises the use of limited highway maintenance funding (costing only around one-fifth of conventional resurfacing). Even the simplest and cheapest of the resurfacing treatments is likely to cost four times the rate of surface dressing and the disparity in cost rises to about a factor of twelve for main road resurfacing.

It leads to less congestion to road users because of the speed at which the works are carried out.

Given these benefits, surface dressing is one of the most favoured maintenance techniques nationwide.

The Disadvantages of Surface Dressing are:

It does not remove undulations or regulate uneven surfaces or correct structural defects in a road or footpath (rutting or potholes need patching);

There will be a slight initial increase in traffic noise as a consequence of increased surface texture although this will reduce over the first few months as the chippings become embedded;

Roads often appear to be in reasonably good condition when treated and it may not be clear to road users why they are being treated;

There will be some loose chippings and householders will need to check shoes before entering the home or car

There is also a slight possibility of wet bitumen being carried on shoes but any staining may be removed with a suitable solvent.

There is a need for temporary speed restrictions to remain in place for 2-3 days after completion of surface dressing, to prevent the chippings from being torn out of the new surface before they are properly embedded.

Surface dressing is a weather sensitive process and hence works can be delayed by both wet, cold and very hot weather.

Mrs Dempsey · 21-10-2014 8:57am

Loose chippings make riding a motorcycle even more interesting.

marmurr1916 · 30-10-2014 1:15pm

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

At this stage, are we the only country in Europe to persist with this outdated method of surfacing roads?

No. It's used in Britain too. I have seen it personally in southwest England and parts of Scotland.

my3cents · 30-10-2014 1:20pm

The difference in the UK is that they put a road sweeper over the road after a couple of days and remove all the loose gravel so there is none lying around. In Ireland they do not bother.

ardmacha · 30-10-2014 5:41pm

my3cents wrote: »

The difference in the UK is that they put a road sweeper over the road after a couple of days and remove all the loose gravel so there is none lying around. In Ireland they do not bother.

This is a simplification, some jobs are done well some are not. There was a guy on the Sabre forum noting that in Donegal the workmanship was higher in his own local authority in England.

my3cents · 30-10-2014 5:50pm

ardmacha wrote: »

This is a simplification, some jobs are done well some are not. There was a guy on the Sabre forum noting that in Donegal the workmanship was higher in his own local authority in England.

A guy I know in the UK was the main contractor for one of the UK local authorities and the specification includes removing the excess gravel.

In the UK they don't afaik use tar an chippings over a crushed stone base to make the roads in the first place so they are tar and chipping over a much stronger layer of tarmac to extend the roads life.

The problem here on country roads is that the surface is so thin that it doesn't take much traffic to cause pot holes.

Hoof Hearted · 05-11-2014 5:56pm

Surface dressing wears tyres at over twice the rate as tarmac/asphalt. The extra cost to the car owner due to early tyre replacement because of driving on such surfaces negate any overall cost benefit. It looks good on the council books that they saved the tax payer money, but the same tax payer paid more in tyre and tyre fitting costs than if he paid a little more in taxes for the council to put down proper asphalt. There is also the hidden costs of surface dressing, more vibration shortening life of sensors in cars, poor image of Ireland's non-national roads amongst foreign investors/tourists due to noise and roughness, significant increase in suspension maintenance costs as surface dressing does not remove undulations or regulate uneven surfaces or correct structural defects in a road, the increased noise raises safety concerns in the use of car entertainment and mobile communications because user has to increase sound volumes and speak louder to overcome the noise.

Surface Dressing is pennywise but pound foolish and makes Ireland look like crap.

Decoda · 05-11-2014 7:29pm

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

Surface dressing wears tyres at over twice the rate as tarmac/asphalt. The extra cost to the car owner due to early tyre replacement because of driving on such surfaces negate any overall cost benefit. It looks good on the council books that they saved the tax payer money, but the same tax payer paid more in tyre and tyre fitting costs than if he paid a little more in taxes for the council to put down proper asphalt. There is also the hidden costs of surface dressing, more vibration shortening life of sensors in cars, poor image of Ireland's non-national roads amongst foreign investors/tourists due to noise and roughness, significant increase in suspension maintenance costs as surface dressing does not remove undulations or regulate uneven surfaces or correct structural defects in a road, the increased noise raises safety concerns in the use of car entertainment and mobile communications because user has to increase sound volumes and speak louder to overcome the noise.

Surface Dressing is pennywise but pound foolish and makes Ireland look like crap.

Any link to back up your statement...surface dressing wears tyres at twice the rate of Tarmac......???

punisher5112 · 05-11-2014 7:37pm

All dangerous roads and bad bends should have these types of surface as they increase grip.

Yes they will wear tyres more but I have no problem once it keeps me that little bit more on the road.

Tyres should really be tested better here and the chinese sh1t should be stopped.

Good tyres are well worth it not worth putting cheap ones on as they give little to no grip.

jrar · 10-11-2014 6:45pm

As a regular cyclist on local rural roads in Kildare, I curse the damn things.

Apart from the fact that this treatment does NOT address the undulations of the road surface to begin with, it's also lethal when the excess gravel gathers in lines outside of the regular tyre tracks on a road especially near or on corners/descents when a bike can just go from under you.

The loose material is also spat up by passing cars making for small sharp stones hitting one's legs/bike, or worse, being spat up at your face/head from in front.

Whilst car drivers experience additional noise, cyclists endure a far harder and more uncomfortable ride with no shock absorbers to reduce the effect !

Have said it before and will say it again - if county engineers responsible for roads were made to cycle everywhere for a month or two, we'd soon have far higher quality local / regional roads !

ardmacha · 10-11-2014 7:39pm

jrar wrote: »

Have said it before and will say it again - if county engineers responsible for roads were made to cycle everywhere for a month or two, we'd soon have far higher quality local / regional roads !

We wouldn't, the budget is the same and so the amount of work to be done is the same. Any engineer would love to lay down multiple courses of asphalt and have a lovely road, but the budget isn't there and cyclists do not contribute to the council revenues.

CiniO · 15-11-2014 4:25am

Decoda wrote: »

Any link to back up your statement...surface dressing wears tyres at twice the rate of Tarmac......???

My own experience.
F.e. I live in Mayo and drive majority of time on roads made with surface dressing technology.
Tyres on my car last usually around 15k kilometres over here.
Last time I bought new tyres. New - 6mm tread. I've travelled 12k kilometres, and they were gone down to 2mm. So that averages of 1mm tread wear per 3k kilometres.

Last winter I was on trip to Continent with the same car. Travelled 10k kilometres outside Ireland. Tread wear was below 1mm for that distance.

So in my experience tyre wear is over 3 times faster on surface dressing roads, than on normal asphalt used on the Continent.

On the other hand, road here in Mayo I drive on, have really good grip, even when surface is wet. So this is advantage for which we pay the price of excessive tyre wear.

CiniO · 15-11-2014 4:29am

jrar wrote: »

Have said it before and will say it again - if county engineers responsible for roads were made to cycle everywhere for a month or two, we'd soon have far higher quality local / regional roads !

Well, you can always use a mountain bike with wide off-road tyres, and the surface won't make much difference for you

jrar · 17-11-2014 11:02pm

ardmacha wrote: »

We wouldn't, the budget is the same and so the amount of work to be done is the same. Any engineer would love to lay down multiple courses of asphalt and have a lovely road, but the budget isn't there and cyclists do not contribute to the council revenues.

Well as a car driver also, I personally most certainly DO contribute to council revenues, as do most of the cyclists in my local club, so that is a false assumption.

Whilst the roads budget might indeed be the same, perhaps the approach might change in line with doing less repairs but building a road better in the first place, thereby having the road last longer.

Always amazes me how we never have the money (or time) in this country to do things once and do them right, but we have no problem in spending a multiple of time and money by re-visiting items with regularity to do ongoing repairs !

Hoof Hearted · 27-01-2015 10:34pm

Decoda wrote: »

Any link to back up your statement...surface dressing wears tyres at twice the rate of Tarmac......???

Here's the link http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=277506 From the abstract:
"The investigation showed that tyre wear on the surface dressing was about 2.5 times tyre wear on asphalt concrete."

Fabio · 28-01-2015 5:18pm

Not a thought given to motorcyclists when these are put down. Wet weather, dark evenings and loose chippings make for absolute death traps...especially when the chippings bunch up as they sometimes can do, creating a loose whole area surface.

We can make arguments all day about "quality of workmanship". Old wooden ships with great quality of workmanship may be good but they ain't as good as modern steel ones with good quality workmanship. Same with roads technology. It moves on. We should no longer be in the dark ages. Not to mention putting peoples lives at risk.

CiniO · 28-01-2015 6:24pm

ardmacha wrote: »

but the budget isn't there and cyclists do not contribute to the council revenues.

Well revenue for building and upgrading the roads come from general revenue, so every single person living in Ireland contributes to it...
Also everyone is using the roads (not only car owners). Some by driving, some by cycling, some by travelling by buses, some by shopping and buying products which were delivered to their local shops by trucks, and some by staying at homes (which were build by machinery and materials delivered by trucks using the roads) and picking up their deliveries by couriers who use the roads to deliver their stuff.

Every single person in this country is 100% dependant on roads, and we all fund them.

Saying that cyclists or any other group don't contribute to the road revenue is just silly. We all pay taxes, and we all use the roads - directly or indirectly.

Loose chippings

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