Golf Memberships

First Up · 20-12-2014 7:10pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Not everyone wants to play golf to a high standard ?

Some of the courses above would keep a sizable number of people very happy.

Going out on a big prestigious course and slogging it out for 4.5 - 5 hours is not everyone's cup of tee - not to mention 1200 to 1400 quid a year.

That's not what I'm saying. If people are happy to play basic courses for cheap rates, good luck to them. That doesn't mean better courses should feel obliged to match them.
You get what you pay for with golf as with much else.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 7:32pm

First Up wrote: »

That's not what I'm saying. If people are happy to play basic courses for cheap rates, good luck to them. That doesn't mean better courses should feel obliged to match them.
You get what you pay for with golf as with much else.

And who is saying that the better clubs should feel obliged to do this?

First Up · 20-12-2014 7:41pm

PARlance wrote: »

And who is saying that the better clubs should feel obliged to do this?

Those who keep going on about how clubs need to offer "flexible" deals to cater for this great untapped market that is out there, waiting to be discovered.

GreeBo · 20-12-2014 8:38pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Hard working effective committees are also keeping some clubs open that would otherwise close. Golfwallah talks a lot of sense and i will come back to the fact that Golf is not getting promoted enough within sections of the population that have had no direct connection with the game. Even if your Dad never played football and you wanted to start playing the path to playing competitively is so much easier when compared to golf. I looked at the Leinster interschools comp, decent amount of paticiptating schools but when you consider all the Second level schools in the province possibly only 10% are participating. Every Secondary school should encouraged, cajoled and incentivised by the GUI into competing. Only 4 per team and playing off scratch means that a lot of kids do not even get considered to play. Is Golf even part of the PE curriculum? There also needs to be competitions for school kids in the higher handicap catergories and also for beginers with no offical handicap. The GUI could also make it a requirement for their clubs to have offical links, golf promotion programmes and pupil memberships for schools in their area.

Tbh thats just not viable, you might as well argue that canoeing or pole vaulting should be taught in schools.

In any case, I still think you are missing the point that for the vast, vast majority of people (current players and potential new players) Saturday and Sunday and *maybe* Friday are the days they want to play.

All the marketing in the world isnt suddenly going to find you a bunch of people looking to play golf on a Monday morning.

Sure there will be a few, and thats why you get a few 5 day members, but not many, as most people just cant play golf on those 5 days.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 8:39pm

First Up wrote: »

Those who keep going on about how clubs need to offer "flexible" deals to cater for this great untapped market that is out there, waiting to be discovered.

Well the average age at my club is late 50s.

What should clubs do - sit on their hands and close.

They recognised they had to change and have got me as a full member now as a result.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 8:48pm

First Up wrote: »

Those who keep going on about how clubs need to offer "flexible" deals to cater for this great untapped market that is out there, waiting to be discovered.

That is a market speaking. And they're speaking, not demanding.

With the average age of golfers being 58, then I think it's safe to assume that there is a massive market out there. And if it isn't tapped up soon then today's issues will be nothing in comparison to those in 10,15,20 years. Sadly death, injury and old age will play it's part.
We could easily go from a ~10% oversupply at present to multiples of that.

Imo you're looking for your answers in the past when they're in present and future.
Golf won't go back to the model you referred to previously.
There have been major socio & economic changes in Ireland since those days!

(All this said, I completely agree that if every course went down a low cost model then non would survive. But nobody is expecting that.)

There'll definitely be a blend of premium, mid range and low cost options in future imo.
And each category will be more flexible than days gone by : Wives/partners work, work is transient, workers relocate, time is more precious, clubs offer less "added value" to members in that the weekend sanctum that was the club bar for many is non existent.... All these and many more mean it can't go back to the good old days.

Less Atari, More Apple is needed.

GreeBo · 20-12-2014 8:59pm

PARlance wrote: »

That is a market speaking. And they're speaking, not demanding.

With the average age of golfers being 58, then I think it's safe to assume that there is a massive market out there. And if it isn't tapped up soon then today's issues will be nothing in comparison to those in 10,15,20 years. Sadly death, injury and old age will play it's part.
We could easily go from a ~10% oversupply at present to multiples of that.

Imo you're looking for your answers in the past when they're in present and future.
Golf won't go back to the model you referred to previously.
There have been major socio & economic changes in Ireland since those days!

(All this said, I completely agree that if every course went down a low cost model then non would survive. But nobody is expecting that.)

There'll definitely be a blend of premium, mid range and low cost options in future imo.
And each category will be more flexible than days gone by : Wives/partners work, work is transient, workers relocate, time is more precious, clubs offer less "added value" to members in that the weekend sanctum that was the club bar for many is non existent.... All these and many more mean it can't go back to the good old days.

Less Atari, More Apple is needed.

Unless you can give historical figures to show that the average age is increasing it doesnt really "prove" anything.

Since I first took up a club the average member was always older, they are the ones who have the most disposable income & the time to spend it.

You can just make golf cheap, its not a cheap sport, a lot like yachting tbh.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 9:16pm

golfwallah wrote: »

You mustn't be paying much attention to the kind of great membership offers that are out there right now, for example the following from a cursory search on Google:

Corballis: from €299 + pay & play

Donabate: from €699

Balcarrick: From €700

Castleknock: From €600

Hollystown: From €295 + Pay & Play

Kilcock: From €349 for Flexible Membership

They are unreal deals.

I know Dublin has the population - and perhpas as prices are so low , guys will try it out. Your not really losing anything by trying. It is not even a long term commitment at that price.

But hard to see all the clubs above staying open. But again - Dublin is different.

Very impressive - bascially above is 1/2 or more of what we are told it takes to run a club to a high standard in Dublin.

It seems a bit lofty to think these clubs will need double the members.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 9:41pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless you can give historical figures to show that the average age is increasing it doesnt really "prove" anything.

Since I first took up a club the average member was always older, they are the ones who have the most disposable income & the time to spend it.

You can just make golf cheap, its not a cheap sport, a lot like yachting tbh.

Google is your friend here.

Unfortunately the GUI doesn't retain age profiles. They do however in England. It'd take quite the contrarian to say there's a big difference between the countries in terms of golf participation and trends.

From the Financial Times, August 2014:

In the UK, the average age of golfers is up from 41 in 2009 to 45, while that of “avid golfers”, those who play at least once a week, is up from 48 to 63, according to Sports Marketing Surveys.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e62feadc-29e0-11e4-914f-00144feabdc0.html

That's golfers in general, both stats on the rise.
I believe the average of GUE members is 58 which would make sense... The lesser average (45) above probably has a much higher % of casual golfers then the "avid" range.
Anyway they're both on the rise and have been for a long long time.

Plenty more info out there if you want to base it on more than how old people looked when you joined.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 9:51pm

And here's another article that references those stats and talks to the need for flexibility/cheaper golf due to socio - economic changes that I mentionned earlier.

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2014/11/average-age-golfers-massive-15-years-since-2009/

The average age of avid golfers rising, jumping....pole vaulting even.... by 15 years in 5 years is staggering and alarming.
And yet lads are willing to keep their heads in the bunkers.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 10:11pm

I've 8 good friends who play golf. Casual - society.
3 of us are big into it - 2 of them had Dad's in clubs, captains etc and were junior / student members.

They wouldn't dream of joining a golf club - but they are all at an age with young kids etc.

Society has changed and the idea of Dad heading off to the club for the weekend is gone for most people. In fact - more chance she is heading off with friends to do something (lol)

Typically these days - both people in a relationship are working, spend little or no time with their kids during week - so the idea that Dad is heading off to the club at the weekend is not on. Even getting these lads away for a weekend is a logistical 3 month plan.

Some men will - but they would want to be seriously into golf - seriously into it.

Society has changed , our Dads had a great life.

I think on here we underestimate how much we are into golf versus a lad who plays golf. The options for lads who just plays golf are too good now. And it is too easy to get a handicap too.

It is death by a 1000 cuts .

I'm seriously into my golf - but I found it very hard to justify joining a golf club. Anyway - I'm not too into the atmosphere at a "Club Club". It is an acquired taste imo. I'm just making that point , because I know all my friends would not like the atmosphere in older style clubs. I think that is also part of change in society too, things are less formal and hierarchy is flatened out. The idea of drinking in a golf club too would be daft, they socialise in a different way , or would drink at home.

I'd be serioulsy worried about golf - not to mention golf clubs.

The game simply has not done enough to promote itself. Look at Rugby - an even more niche sport , yet promting itself very very well. Look at hurling in Dublin - amazing.

Golf, nothing.

FixdePitchmark · 20-12-2014 10:15pm

PARlance wrote: »

And here's another article that references those stats and talks to the need for flexibility/cheaper golf due to socio - economic changes that I mentionned earlier.

http://www.golfclubmanagement.net/2014/11/average-age-golfers-massive-15-years-since-2009/

The average age of avid golfers rising, jumping....pole vaulting even.... by 15 years in 5 years is staggering and alarming.
And yet lads are willing to keep their heads in the bunkers.

Wow.

Nothing like a bit of actual research - seems my feelings are right.

Another major problem is it is too bloody slow. And lads on another thread think 4 hour + rounds are ok.

Golf not on TV is a big issue too.

GreeBo · 20-12-2014 10:51pm

PARlance wrote: »

Google is your friend here.

Unfortunately the GUI doesn't retain age profiles. They do however in England. It'd take quite the contrarian to say there's a big difference between the countries in terms of golf participation and trends.

From the Financial Times, August 2014:

In the UK, the average age of golfers is up from 41 in 2009 to 45, while that of “avid golfers”, those who play at least once a week, is up from 48 to 63, according to Sports Marketing Surveys.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e62feadc-29e0-11e4-914f-00144feabdc0.html

That's golfers in general, both stats on the rise.
I believe the average of GUE members is 58 which would make sense... The lesser average (45) above probably has a much higher % of casual golfers then the "avid" range.
Anyway they're both on the rise and have been for a long long time.

Plenty more info out there if you want to base it on more than how old people looked when you joined.

Thanks.

Golf has always been an older mans game, your own stats show this. 41 is hardly young.

Austerity is always going to mean that younger people have less money, financially settled people were far less impacted by austerity for example.

First Up · 20-12-2014 11:27pm

PARlance wrote: »

That is a market speaking. And they're speaking, not demanding.

With the average age of golfers being 58, then I think it's safe to assume that there is a massive market out there. And if it isn't tapped up soon then today's issues will be nothing in comparison to those in 10,15,20 years. Sadly death, injury and old age will play it's part.
We could easily go from a ~10% oversupply at present to multiples of that.

Imo you're looking for your answers in the past when they're in present and future.
Golf won't go back to the model you referred to previously.
There have been major socio & economic changes in Ireland since those days!

(All this said, I completely agree that if every course went down a low cost model then non would survive. But nobody is expecting that.)

There'll definitely be a blend of premium, mid range and low cost options in future imo.
And each category will be more flexible than days gone by : Wives/partners work, work is transient, workers relocate, time is more precious, clubs offer less "added value" to members in that the weekend sanctum that was the club bar for many is non existent.... All these and many more mean it can't go back to the good old days.

Less Atari, More Apple is needed.

I am intruiged at how an average age of 58 allows you conclude there is an untapped market out there. What that number tells you is that golf is and will be maintained by those with the income and time available to devote to it.
The model I spoke of may be from "the past" but it is to date the only one that has worked. If the future of the game has more to do with demographics than economics, then so be it. Ultimately, the scale of demand will dictate the level of supply. And by demand, I mean those prepared to pay realistic rates - not those bleating about "elitism" or similar rubbish.

Howjoe1 · 20-12-2014 11:43pm

"older" players are more likely to fork out cash on membership.

Yet price reductions are all targeted at under 30s etc.

So are clubs that are in need of new members alienanting the short-term obvious market that might fork out.

Maybe I'm speaking from personal experience, but as some one who is without a membership the last few years and looking at signing up somewhere, I am put off by clubs that I look at and see that if I was under 30 etc they would charge me less.

PARlance · 20-12-2014 11:59pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Thanks.

Golf has always been an older mans game, your own stats show this. 41 is hardly young.

Austerity is always going to mean that younger people have less money, financially settled people were far less impacted by austerity for example.

I don't think anyone thinks golf was, or is ever going to be, a young persons game in an average age sense.

Accommodating, reacting and being flexible to the needs of young golfers will be key for ~90% of clubs.

GreeBo · 21-12-2014 1:22am

PARlance wrote: »

I don't think anyone thinks golf was, or is ever going to be, a young persons game in an average age sense.

Accommodating, reacting and being flexible to the needs of young golfers will be key for ~90% of clubs.

The current market clearly shows, at least to me, that this market you think they should tap has neither the time, money or inclination to play golf.

Dropping prices and standards ever lower in an attempt to attract people who cant/wont play is a fruitless exercise.

You can play golf for a couple of hundred quid a year, thats cheaper than a hell of a lot of other sports, so complaining about costs being too high is missing the problem. It also assumes that clubs can maintain their current standards simply by cutting costs and lower subs. Not a model that I would want to follow tbh.

The biggest barrier to entry to golf is the investment of time required, you can play cheap golf easily.

Golf takes too long, perhaps the GUI needs to push the 9 hole comps to all clubs and then you can have 9 hole "competition" members.

PARlance · 21-12-2014 2:22am

GreeBo wrote: »

The current market clearly shows, at least to me, that this market you think they should tap has neither the time, money or inclination to play golf.

Dropping prices and standards ever lower in an attempt to attract people who cant/wont play is a fruitless exercise.

You can play golf for a couple of hundred quid a year, thats cheaper than a hell of a lot of other sports, so complaining about costs being too high is missing the problem. It also assumes that clubs can maintain their current standards simply by cutting costs and lower subs. Not a model that I would want to follow tbh.

The biggest barrier to entry to golf is the investment of time required, you can play cheap golf easily.

Golf takes too long, perhaps the GUI needs to push the 9 hole comps to all clubs and then you can have 9 hole "competition" members.

I wouldn't agree with that.
They have an inclination: there's a big market of non member golfers out there.
And it's not that they no time or money but rather that they have less time and probably less money but they can still be catered for.

The "race to the bottom" is a separate issue. It's related for sure, but it's another issue in its own right.
There is an oversupply at present. Prices drop in times of oversupply. Indeed it can be a good short term tactic to below cost sell if you can keep your head above water until competitors fail... They fail, supply falls, demand increases relative to supply and you're in the position to up prices again. That's not pretty but I think it's the reality and unavoidable.

Agreed that options like more 9 hole comps help tackle the time issue.

The over supply at present is only a short term issue really. There's a big cliff edge down the line in 10-20 years. The majority of members today, say 50 year olds and over, just won't be playing in 20 years time.
And all the trends are saying that they're not being replaced.

Tbh, if things continue then in 20 years I would say that golf in Ireland will be more like golf in the US rather than the Irish model 20 years ago. In the sense that will be a really high % of casual/non member golfers vs members, far less courses per golfer, the premium will be even more premium and everything else will be to a lesser standard and there'll be a lot less of them around.
It's not going to revert back to the way it was in Ireland 20 years after being rescued by the 20-30 something's of today who will all magically become "enlightened members" as they grow older.

There's a real danger that the non member culture will grow and grow. It's either let grow or addressed now imo. If that means a lowering of standards, which I think it has to, then I think it's a lesser evil tbh and the landscape of golf in general in Ireland would be better for it in the long term.

golfwallah · 21-12-2014 8:27am

GreeBo wrote: »

You can just make golf cheap, its not a cheap sport, a lot like yachting tbh.

I’d agree that golf is a lot like yachting – I do a bit of sailing myself with my brother who is a member of an “affordable” yacht club (i.e. down to earth, value for money as opposed to cheap / shoddy). We sail in a well equipped, 10 metre yacht with 4 berths and I can assure you, I and many more spend more on golf than he spends on sailing.

I find this yacht club a tonic to be in. It’s not stuffy or snobbish. They have a fabulous club house, reasonably good facilities / social scene and a good membership base drawn from a wide cross-section of the community. Some yachts in the club would be worth north of €300,000, whereas others might be worth only a few hundred Euro, with a wide variation in value between the two.

Granted it’s not Royal St. George, Malahide or Howth, with very large membership, it’s own marina and million Euro yachts, but it is well run and satisfies a sizable market niche for many people.

Golf is no different. People will join clubs they perceive to be good value in terms of price, location, quality, etc. Well managed clubs are managing this difficult balance of good quality at affordable prices. No, they are not The Old Head, St. Andrews or Pebble Beach – nor are they trying to be but they are a lot better than many more expensive places (and a lot more down to earth).

The golf market, like the economy, has changed and become much more segmented. It’s not a case of one size fits all. As with any business, clubs that adapt to changing market needs have the best chance for survival. I don’t accept that this means cheap and poor quality any more than expensive and inefficient. Some people are happy to pay high prices for premium quality – nothing wrong with than – but it doesn’t represent the entire market.

Montgolfier · 21-12-2014 9:35am

The main problem I find with my club is they make no allowances for stragglers in weekly competitions. I work shift so can only play every second weekend I have a young family so Im not at the club house bar socialising making buddies.
I don't have a regular playing partner as most of the guys I work with my age mid to late 30s are in the same situation as me.
Shift workers in Ireland are a large part of the golfing market yet not really catered for in the majority of clubs. Competition Tee times are not easy to come by even though we pay the same membership fees. They kind of assume everyone works 9 to 5 weekdays.
I would like to be able to pick a rough time to play and put into an open draw for a tee time.
A system like that would only help new members integrate. I'm sure the older guys in the club would have an issue as they like their regular 3/4 balls. But it's important to remember that it's a competition not a casual round.

Just thought this may be another angle on why memberships are down. Everybody talks about the cost vs rounds played or no time.

GreeBo · 21-12-2014 11:11am

Montgolfier wrote: »

The main problem I find with my club is they make no allowances for stragglers in weekly competitions. I work shift so can only play every second weekend I have a young family so Im not at the club house bar socialising making buddies.
I don't have a regular playing partner as most of the guys I work with my age mid to late 30s are in the same situation as me.
Shift workers in Ireland are a large part of the golfing market yet not really catered for in the majority of clubs. Competition Tee times are not easy to come by even though we pay the same membership fees. They kind of assume everyone works 9 to 5 weekdays.
I would like to be able to pick a rough time to play and put into an open draw for a tee time.
A system like that would only help new members integrate. I'm sure the older guys in the club would have an issue as they like their regular 3/4 balls. But it's important to remember that it's a competition not a casual round.

Just thought this may be another angle on why memberships are down. Everybody talks about the cost vs rounds played or no time.

I'm not sure I really follow what you are asking for....why should you have better playing options for the same money?
I'd also have to disagree that shift workers are a "large" percentage, I'd say they are very much in the minority.
Having a weekday singles competition wouldnt give you a viable field, we have an overflow on a Friday that allows people to play at any time they can get and be part of the Saturday singles field.

You can talk about cost per round for membership, it just doenst work as its always going to be more expensive than opens/greenfees.

golfwallah wrote: »

I’d agree that golf is a lot like yachting – I do a bit of sailing myself with my brother who is a member of an “affordable” yacht club (i.e. down to earth, value for money as opposed to cheap / shoddy). We sail in a well equipped, 10 metre yacht with 4 berths and I can assure you, I and many more spend more on golf than he spends on sailing.

I find this yacht club a tonic to be in. It’s not stuffy or snobbish. They have a fabulous club house, reasonably good facilities / social scene and a good membership base drawn from a wide cross-section of the community. Some yachts in the club would be worth north of €300,000, whereas others might be worth only a few hundred Euro, with a wide variation in value between the two.

Granted it’s not Royal St. George, Malahide or Howth, with very large membership, it’s own marina and million Euro yachts, but it is well run and satisfies a sizable market niche for many people.

Golf is no different. People will join clubs they perceive to be good value in terms of price, location, quality, etc. Well managed clubs are managing this difficult balance of good quality at affordable prices. No, they are not The Old Head, St. Andrews or Pebble Beach – nor are they trying to be but they are a lot better than many more expensive places (and a lot more down to earth).

The golf market, like the economy, has changed and become much more segmented. It’s not a case of one size fits all. As with any business, clubs that adapt to changing market needs have the best chance for survival. I don’t accept that this means cheap and poor quality any more than expensive and inefficient. Some people are happy to pay high prices for premium quality – nothing wrong with than – but it doesn’t represent the entire market.

In this respect golf is nothing like yachting actually!

You are always going to need a course that someone is maintaining to play golf...the same isnt true for golf.
Perhaps a better analogy is that golf is like round the world yachting, there is a basic minimum standard that you need and its not cheap.

PARlance wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that.
They have an inclination: there's a big market of non member golfers out there.
And it's not that they no time or money but rather that they have less time and probably less money but they can still be catered for.

The people in this "big market" have no inclination, Im not talking about the clubs.
Golf will always be a minority sport due the investment required to play it, typically the money was a problem, its now the time investment as golf has become incredibly cheap imo.

PARlance wrote: »

The "race to the bottom" is a separate issue. It's related for sure, but it's another issue in its own right.
There is an oversupply at present. Prices drop in times of oversupply. Indeed it can be a good short term tactic to below cost sell if you can keep your head above water until competitors fail... They fail, supply falls, demand increases relative to supply and you're in the position to up prices again. That's not pretty but I think it's the reality and unavoidable.

I dont think its separate at all, cheap golf isnt as good as expensive golf yet we are trying to address the issue by just making golf cheaper and cheaper. Its cheap enough tbh, sure there are clubs that are expensive, but there are loads of clubs out there where you can play for a few hundred a year.

PARlance wrote: »

The over supply at present is only a short term issue really. There's a big cliff edge down the line in 10-20 years. The majority of members today, say 50 year olds and over, just won't be playing in 20 years time.
And all the trends are saying that they're not being replaced.

Tbh, if things continue then in 20 years I would say that golf in Ireland will be more like golf in the US rather than the Irish model 20 years ago. In the sense that will be a really high % of casual/non member golfers vs members, far less courses per golfer, the premium will be even more premium and everything else will be to a lesser standard and there'll be a lot less of them around.
It's not going to revert back to the way it was in Ireland 20 years after being rescued by the 20-30 something's of today who will all magically become "enlightened members" as they grow older.

I think the economy will have a large say, if it recovers quickly.
Golf in the US is terrible from my experience, no middle ground in some areas, very expensive for not great quality courses.
Membership of decent clubs is up into the tens of thousands of dollars.

PARlance wrote: »

There's a real danger that the non member culture will grow and grow. It's either let grow or addressed now imo. If that means a lowering of standards, which I think it has to, then I think it's a lesser evil tbh and the landscape of golf in general in Ireland would be better for it in the long term.

I dont think it can grow in Ireland, we dont have the body of golfers to keep non members clubs afloat, other than fields with 18 flags in them.
Lowering standards doesnt fix the problem for me, it changes it.
If the problem is quality members clubs not being able to survive, replacing them with fields doenst help golf survive, thats not golf. You might as well start playing football on the land and call it a success.

First Up · 21-12-2014 11:16am

PARlance wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that.
They have an inclination: there's a big market of non member golfers out there.
And it's not that they no time or money but rather that they have less time and probably less money but they can still be catered for.

The "race to the bottom" is a separate issue. It's related for sure, but it's another issue in its own right.
There is an oversupply at present. Prices drop in times of oversupply. Indeed it can be a good short term tactic to below cost sell if you can keep your head above water until competitors fail... They fail, supply falls, demand increases relative to supply and you're in the position to up prices again. That's not pretty but I think it's the reality and unavoidable.

Agreed that options like more 9 hole comps help tackle the time issue.

The over supply at present is only a short term issue really. There's a big cliff edge down the line in 10-20 years. The majority of members today, say 50 year olds and over, just won't be playing in 20 years time.
And all the trends are saying that they're not being replaced.

Tbh, if things continue then in 20 years I would say that golf in Ireland will be more like golf in the US rather than the Irish model 20 years ago. In the sense that will be a really high % of casual/non member golfers vs members, far less courses per golfer, the premium will be even more premium and everything else will be to a lesser standard and there'll be a lot less of them around.
It's not going to revert back to the way it was in Ireland 20 years after being rescued by the 20-30 something's of today who will all magically become "enlightened members" as they grow older.

There's a real danger that the non member culture will grow and grow. It's either let grow or addressed now imo. If that means a lowering of standards, which I think it has to, then I think it's a lesser evil tbh and the landscape of golf in general in Ireland would be better for it in the long term.

The race to the bottom is not a separate issue. It is the inevitable result of seeing everything in terms of price.
Pay and play suits some people and just about every club offers it through green fees. If you want to enjoy a top notch course, built and maintained by its members, then be prepared to pay for the pleasure. If your budget doesn't stretch to that, there are other courses for you.
Golf as a club member is a different matter. The clue is in the words "club" and "member". If that suits you, you buy in. If you don't "get it", or are not prepared to pay what it costs to provide, don't expect others to pay on your behalf.

slave1 · 21-12-2014 11:25am

Regarding membership, let me first thank all those volunteers that devote time to the management of GC in Ireland, hats off.
IMHO
Golfers are often elected or volunteer in GC management without the necessary skill set.
The treasurer has be a professional accountant with industrial or management accounting background to bring emphasis on costs, cashflow and longer term sustainable strategy, not an accountant from practice and not an avid golfer volunteering.
This treasurer should be tempered by balanced (non-clic) committee e.g. folk with inroads to local sponsorship and marketing skill sets.
'Old school' beliefs and approaches e.g. lets just raise fees to increase income without proper research and financial scenario modelling, are killing clubs.

Finally, and again IMHO, GC in Ireland are still in denial, there are simply too many courses, it really is as simple as that. NAMA is 'pretty much' on the way out and in the next two to three years clubs need to start reverting back to farming or another use. I love playing different courses but from the bigger perspective folk need to wise up.
It's not a matter of can all the clubs survive, it's a simple matter of supply and demand curves, the only real question is how many need to close, without researching the area, intuitively it's probably in the region of 10%-15% for starters....

Russman · 21-12-2014 11:32am

Montgolfier wrote: »

The main problem I find with my club is they make no allowances for stragglers in weekly competitions. I work shift so can only play every second weekend I have a young family so Im not at the club house bar socialising making buddies.
I don't have a regular playing partner as most of the guys I work with my age mid to late 30s are in the same situation as me.
Shift workers in Ireland are a large part of the golfing market yet not really catered for in the majority of clubs. Competition Tee times are not easy to come by even though we pay the same membership fees. They kind of assume everyone works 9 to 5 weekdays.
I would like to be able to pick a rough time to play and put into an open draw for a tee time.
A system like that would only help new members integrate. I'm sure the older guys in the club would have an issue as they like their regular 3/4 balls. But it's important to remember that it's a competition not a casual round.

Just thought this may be another angle on why memberships are down. Everybody talks about the cost vs rounds played or no time.

That's a very fair point and I think it shows that there isn't one simple answer, in a way, everyone is sort of right IMO.
I'd be interested to know what the broad feeling is re open draws on time sheets. It's something that has come up for me lately as I've been researching other clubs that I may or may not be interested in joining should the need arise. It seems that quite a few of the clubs I've looked into are in the situation where they are so busy you're often not guaranteed a slot and have to go of a waiting list. Personally speaking, for me, thats a load of bo11ix. I wouldn't go near a club where I couldn't book a line of 3 or 4 names for my game on a Saturday or Sunday or had to go on a waiting list. For certain big comps, yes it's fine, but I don't want to be paying X amount every year and not be able to play with my regular playing partners at least some of the time. Others might obviously be different.

On the earlier posts re yachting - I can kinda see the analogy but a yacht club doesn't have to cut greens, mow fairways, rake bunkers, fertilise & maintain etc., the sea is just there (I'm sure there's more to it than that in fairness !) Maybe they're similar from a individuals point of view but from the club's point of view I don't see it. I'm not familiar with any yachting clubs but I'd guess it might even be less costly to run a yacht club than a golf club ? Haven't a clue but it's beside the point anyway.

Apart from the obvious oversupply of clubs, the biggest issue is that fixed(ish) costs in a golf club are very high. Whether you have 10 or 1,010 members, the greens still have to be cut and the fairways mowed. Maintaining 100+ acres of land is expensive and the cost has ultimately to be borne by somebody. All the descriptions of flexible options and tailored options are really other names for cheap golf. If every golfer in the country took the cheap options not many clubs would survive, so I think it needs to be kept in mind that for every cheap option taken up, someone else somewhere along the line is effectively subsidising that option. I know in my own club we've introduced a sliding scale of membership where someone joining at age 25 pays something like €275 in year 1, and this increases every two years until they're paying full subs when they're 35. If you join at 27 I think it starts at €375, something like that anyway. It'll be interesting to see how that tests the forbearance of the existing members. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with two members having the exact same full voting rights and one is paying 4 times what the other one is. Of course there needs to be different options and categories but simply reducing fees isn't the answer IMHO.

Russman · 21-12-2014 11:39am

First Up wrote: »

Golf as a club member is a different matter. The clue is in the words "club" and "member". If that suits you, you buy in. If you don't "get it", or are not prepared to pay what it costs to provide, don't expect others to pay on your behalf.

This exactly ^^^^

slave1 wrote: »

Finally, and again IMHO, GC in Ireland are still in denial, there are simply too many courses, it really is as simple as that. NAMA is 'pretty much' on the way out and in the next two to three years clubs need to start reverting back to farming or another use. I love playing different courses but from the bigger perspective folk need to wise up.
It's not a matter of can all the clubs survive, it's a simple matter of supply and demand curves, the only real question is how many need to close, without researching the area, intuitively it's probably in the region of 10%-15% for starters....

And this too ^^^^

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 12:38pm

Great posts lads.

I’ve gone through the journey of joining a club recently, so went through the experience of looking at the options of the existing market. I’m obviously nuts about golf, but I could see that traditional courses have an almost impossible battle on their hands – it is sad to see.

First up - the sizable group of golfers that don't "get it" - are as happy as larry , as they can play golf as they wish , when they wish , where they wish and way cheaper . We have seen that it is basically now 1/2 the price in Dublin. There is a generation out there and one coming up who are use to getting things quick, when needed and at their control.

Others have suggested that the quality of golf is way inferior – it isn’t that far behind. I know we talk about Dublin too much – but as the courses above were mentioned we will stick with them. Are people saying the likes of Clontarf or Forest Little are miles ahead of Balcarrick or Donabate. I’m sorry, I’ve played a good few course and they are not as far apart as ½ price. Yes the more traditional model would not tolerate the course conditions of some of the cheaper courses I have seen , but some of the more expensive clubs have course condition issues also. Serious ones with lads forking out 14 to 1800 euro a year.

If lads want to play great courses in perfect condition – a long round , they can pay for ½ price golf for serious stuff and society golf for the option of seeing other courses or The Open options- Opens are so cheap. I accept this is a bit skewed as this seems to be sold at way too low a price. But, people will go to LIDL if opened. People will use Ryainair.

I have noticed that the courses that are on the cheaper side are dropping off in course condition. But – it would be perfectly acceptable to play golf on at that price. It would keep most golfers happy out. In fact I’ve been very impressed how robust some course designs are to less care , less staff doing more , less cutting , filling in bunkers. Is a joke when they take them out of play – but some golfers can even get past that.

Even the golfers who do "get it" - 1/2 price is way too big a gap , particularly when the cheaper option is more flexible to their life.

The concern I would have is, this group of golfers don't see or are interested in the unknown to them benefits, of joining a club. Even if they take the next step , a handicap is a weekend away , or a trip back to the parents for a few weekends.

My fear is - the gap between these golfers , what they are enjoying and the step up to a golf course in the traditional sense is now too large.

Yes the market is skewed with basically what looks like (what is) below cost selling. Courses will close , but the ones that survive at lower cost model with flexible options will be more attractive to the group of golfers that "get it". It is now too large a gap IMO to step up to 1500 euro.

I would like to add my admiration for the people who run golf courses on a voluntary basis – some extraordinary individuals, they literally are running it like it was their family. This could be another issue for clubs. Is that sense of volunteerism still there for the next generation of golfers ?

Perhaps we can’t be overly negative about, the younger generation coming up , the people who do the work in a club, tend to be older gents/ladies retired. It will require people like ourselves to do this work or give something back to the game. I hope that will be the case.

After all that – Dublin has certain areas with a large wealthy catchments for certain clubs. There are a few clubs in Dublin that may be able to maintain their old structures – But I’d imagine this is what 10 to 20 clubs ?

The real problems are for clubs outside of these areas and the rest of the country.

Montgolfier · 21-12-2014 12:54pm

There is a municipal course near by the course is not great but the use an open draw for all competitions. Just pick an hour slot and your drawn. Thought it was a great idea.
The older more established do find it harder to change though that's fair enough but many are in debt it could be worth a look.

Russman · 21-12-2014 1:23pm

I can fully see why lads would take up a distance option, but how much is your average open comp to enter, €20, €30 ? if distance membership somewhere is around €200 and you play 30 times you're not that far off the cost of membership in many fine courses in the c€1k price point. Add in the advantages of being in a club - teams, friends, a few holes on a summer evening etc etc. and I don't really see that it's all that much more advantageous to do the distance thing.

FdP you're right, there is a generation coming through with different demands and expectations (however unrealistic). They played the likes of your K Clubs, Druid Glens etc etc regularly during the boom times, frequently on corporate gigs or deals on tee-times, and expect your bog standard members clubs to be of the same standard now. When they're not at that standard they can't justify paying a subscription and rather play a different course each week with their mates. Each to their own and all that, but clubs need to try to get the message across that being a member somewhere is actually worth something, and worth paying a little more than simply x number of rounds times an average price per round.

Montgolfier · 21-12-2014 1:49pm

Russman wrote: »

I can fully see why lads would take up a distance option, but how much is your average open comp to enter, €20, €30 ? if distance membership somewhere is around €200 and you play 30 times you're not that far off the cost of membership in many fine courses in the c€1k price point. Add in the advantages of being in a club - teams, friends, a few holes on a summer evening etc etc. and I don't really see that it's all that much more advantageous to do the distance thing.

FdP you're right, there is a generation coming through with different demands and expectations (however unrealistic). They played the likes of your K Clubs, Druid Glens etc etc regularly during the boom times, frequently on corporate gigs or deals on tee-times, and expect your bog standard members clubs to be of the same standard now. When they're not at that standard they can't justify paying a subscription and rather play a different course each week with their mates. Each to their own and all that, but clubs need to try to get the message across that being a member somewhere is actually worth something, and worth paying a little more than simply x number of rounds times an average price per round.

One thing is flexibility most open competitions are during weekdays when Shift workers have days off (I know broken record).
Full members have to pay for their own open competition and sometimes costs are elevated as you must buy a meal also so for an outsider 25€ member 12€.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 2:15pm

Not sure who was the lead – but someone is reading this thread – exact same topic on Back of Sunday Times Today. Joking – but have a look.

Russman.

I think that is part of the problem for clubs.

They are rightly designed not to change too fast - some of the older clubs have gone through all the tough times of the Irish Economy in the 60s and 80s - this could be looked at as another cycle.

If a club has been successful with the model they had in the past - are they right to not act upon the whim of a cultural change ?

How do you know when a change with a younger generation is a fad or not.
My own opinion is that this change is permanent and clubs not changing are wrong or in trouble. When you start telling younger people what they need and should do – you are in trouble.

The way younger people form relationships are different now. They typically from friends from education – but then extend this relationship into mid to late 30s – end up travelling, then forming families near 40. This will inevitably lead to the time they would consider joining a club being much older.

You could almost say the life cycle of a person is 10 years later on than what it was in the 70s and 80s.

Most of their 40s are about, building a family home and only getting well positioned in their career then. They have incredible choice and are use to instant variety. I can understand this attitude totally – I like it myself and am way too old for it.

Are we saying there is going to be some sort of cultural reversal – a jump back to playing the one course every week – forming new friends in clubhouses – when they are getting 20 – 30 messages from their “real friends” on whatsapp.

A golf clubhouse is not the place to meet people and form relationships – as it was in the past. They already have formed their relationships.

I’m old fashioned and admire some of the ethos of golf.

But – I just can’t see a jump back to the past.

When we start going on about the youth of today , we are in trouble lads – Socrates said that 2500 years ago. I just can’t see it.

I hope I’m wrong.

Russman · 21-12-2014 2:31pm

Ooh I agree, you can no more stop the tides as stop progress.

I do think though that when people in their 30s join a club, a lot of the time they will buy into it. Mates of mine would have been "nomadic" for a number of years with regard to golf, going from deal to deal, but two or three in particular joined my club and now love the craic and banter on Saturday and Sunday mornings after the golf has been played. For sure you're not going to meet the love of your life in a golf club these days though !!

Realistically, in Dublin the old established clubs within the M50 boundary are likely to be safe as they have huge catchment areas to replenish members as the old ones die off. But, as you said earlier, there's what, 10 or 20 of these, if that.
All the others are playing a waiting game to some degree or other, until the oversupply of clubs works itself out of the system.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 2:48pm

Yes but even some clubs in Dublin - I won't name names - they wouldn't have let me in the door 20 years ago. Would let me be a member now for my granny and a fiver.

I know lads don't like the elitist tag , but it was a real thing , no doubt about it , seen it with my own eyes.

But the big failure of golf is the failure to promote itself. The GUI are trying to do stuff now , but I'll call a spade a spade - the golf community was too happy with the status quo , they got too comfortable with their closed shops.

All closed shops and protectionism eventually falls into trouble.

Other smaller sports went for promotion and open door and have won out.

This is an awful thing I hate saying, but sometimes you need the truth from the past to start again - but golf deserved its downfall.

So - I'll drive on and see what all this Golf Club thing is about. I don't "get it" yet. But, I'm getting there.
Get "me" name in the paper (lol).

slave1 · 21-12-2014 3:20pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

...Yes but even some clubs in Dublin - I won't name names - they wouldn't have let me in the door 20 years ago. Would let me be a member now for my granny and a fiver...

Not just Dublin mate, I remember when I wanted to join my first club back in the late 90's and I had to 'attend' at the course, your man looked down on me as I was not in shirt and tie, first question he asked was what was my profession and where do I work, I politely asked what's that to do with golf membership and was told directly that if I did not work in the right area or company I would not be selected to 'go further'.
Rather than stoop to his level I thanked him for his time and walked out.
That club is in trouble now and that guy is still there.
Would not join there if they paid me.

Russman · 21-12-2014 4:01pm

That elitist thing is still very real in some clubs unfortunately. Some of them remind me of "old money" in the movies pretending they still have their status, while secretly being financially f---ed, or on the way to it, and refusing to accept the new reality. Only some, mind.
Only a few weeks ago I was chatting to someone at a work thing and, just in passing as I've no intention of joining, asked what the membership situation was in his club (an old school type club), he looked at me rather distastefully with a bit of an "........oooh" followed by "do you play ? What's your handicap ?". You probably had to be there to pick up on the body language.

Dayor Knight · 21-12-2014 4:38pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes but even some clubs in Dublin - I won't name names - they wouldn't have let me in the door 20 years ago. Would let me be a member now for my granny and a fiver.

I know lads don't like the elitist tag , but it was a real thing , no doubt about it , seen it with my own eyes.

But the big failure of golf is the failure to promote itself. The GUI are trying to do stuff now , but I'll call a spade a spade - the golf community was too happy with the status quo , they got too comfortable with their closed shops.

All closed shops and protectionism eventually falls into trouble.

Other smaller sports went for promotion and open door and have won out.

This is an awful thing I hate saying, but sometimes you need the truth from the past to start again - but golf deserved its downfall.

So - I'll drive on and see what all this Golf Club thing is about. I don't "get it" yet. But, I'm getting there.
Get "me" name in the paper (lol).

Some great posts there, Fix. I.m.o. you're right on the button. The elites of traditional golf clubs, in Dublin in particular, kept it to themselves for many years. Big hello money was used to keep the "riff raff" (everyone else) out. Why bother to encourage new members when we can keep it for ourselves. Now they're all getting old and popping off, and there's not enough interest in the younger generation to replace them (and of course lots more clubs and, as you say, different lifestyles). The ones that cop on the quickest have the best chance of surviving. Many have only recently accepted that they can't charge hello money any more (some exceptions I suppose). What planet were they on?

First Up · 21-12-2014 4:54pm

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Some great posts there, Fix. I.m.o. you're right on the button. The elites of traditional golf clubs, in Dublin in particular, kept it to themselves for many years. Big hello money was used to keep the "riff raff" (everyone else) out. Why bother to encourage new members when we can keep it for ourselves. Now they're all getting old and popping off, and there's not enough interest in the younger generation to replace them (and of course lots more clubs and, as you say, different lifestyles). The ones that cop on the quickest have the best chance of surviving. Many have only recently accepted that they can't charge hello money any more (some exceptions I suppose). What planet were they on?

You demonstrate a lack of understanding of how such clubs are constituted. They are member owned and the "hello" money is the price of your share. Once in, you are a part owner.
The more recent, commercial operations are/were doing it for revenue but characterising the traditional clubs as just being "elitist" is flat wrong.
And very few if any of those clubs have any worries about future members. Their location, quality, secure financial status and strong family tradition and linkage will see them around for a long time.
Drop the begrudgery and support your own club the way the members of the "elitist" clubs support theirs.

GreeBo · 21-12-2014 4:56pm

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Some great posts there, Fix. I.m.o. you're right on the button. The elites of traditional golf clubs, in Dublin in particular, kept it to themselves for many years. Big hello money was used to keep the "riff raff" (everyone else) out. Why bother to encourage new members when we can keep it for ourselves. Now they're all getting old and popping off, and there's not enough interest in the younger generation to replace them (and of course lots more clubs and, as you say, different lifestyles). The ones that cop on the quickest have the best chance of surviving. Many have only recently accepted that they can't charge hello money any more (some exceptions I suppose). What planet were they on?

LOL
Why would a club charge less than people are willing to pay?
For years clubs in my area were way over subscribed, as the number of members is strictly controlled by club constitution, exactly for the reason that the members want to be able to effectively choose their tee time or wander up after work and get out without any issues.

Why on earth would you accept less money for something thats in demand?
Thats terrible business management.

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 6:00pm

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL
Why would a club charge less than people are willing to pay?
For years clubs in my area were way over subscribed, as the number of members is strictly controlled by club constitution, exactly for the reason that the members want to be able to effectively choose their tee time or wander up after work and get out without any issues.

Why on earth would you accept less money for something thats in demand?
Thats terrible business management.

The so called elite clubs - had power and influence, the most important members inside and outside the game, undoubtedly influence on how the game was being shaped and run.

These fiefdoms were happy with their lot. They were not overly concerned about the development of golf - just for their own kids, even this was a mixed lot from club to club , from talking to older members. Apparently it is improving now and over the last few years.

And there is nothing wrong with that and best of luck to them. It is the world we live in.

But, in relation to securing your future as a sport, it has been a disaster. Total disaster - 3 majors from one golfer in 60 years - crazy stuff. (another days debate).

My son has been offered every opportunity to play every sport going - not a word about golf. Must be 20 courses within 5 km. Of course he will end up trying it - but I hope for the day that will come from the GUI or a local club.

The way the game is structured is totally flawed.

I think things are going to get worse - even in some of these so called unshakable clubs. I've seen how lads who are members of cubs all their life - are not taking up full options themselves.
Straight up, a few lads said they couldn't afford it. Has the younger generation got the disposable income of their father ? Do they like playing the same course for life.

Sure, "big" "big" clubs - have dropped their hello money or reduced it - or brought in ways to pay it - or considered age - or , I've seen one offer early bird reduction in entry fee , imagine offering an early bird option in a top club, would have been unimaginable 10 years.

Yes maybe a couple of courses are totally insulated - but you know what, I think many are bluffing their way through the last few years - and behind the facade , the carpets are a little worn.

I was told a very very famous club in Dublin has spent too much money in the vanity years - crazy dreams and ideas of grandeur of the past.

So - I'm interested in golf doing well. But golf's problem is - the structure is about you doing well, your club winning over another, you doing better at your club for you. It is the way real life is. But, it is not great for a sport in the end. It dies a slow painful death.

First Up · 21-12-2014 6:40pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The so called elite clubs - had power and influence, the most important members inside and outside the game, undoubtedly influence on how the game was being shaped and run.

These fiefdoms were happy with their lot. They were not overly concerned about the development of golf - just for their own kids, even this was a mixed lot from club to club , from talking to older members. Apparently it is improving now and over the last few years.

And there is nothing wrong with that and best of luck to them. It is the world we live in.

But, in relation to securing your future as a sport, it has been a disaster. Total disaster - 3 majors from one golfer in 60 years - crazy stuff. (another days debate).

My son has been offered every opportunity to play every sport going - not a word about golf. Must be 20 courses within 5 km. Of course he will end up trying it - but I hope for the day that will come from the GUI or a local club.

The way the game is structured is totally flawed.

I think things are going to get worse - even in some of these so called unshakable clubs. I've seen how lads who are members of cubs all their life - are not taking up full options themselves.
Straight up, a few lads said they couldn't afford it. Has the younger generation got the disposable income of their father ? Do they like playing the same course for life.

Sure, "big" "big" clubs - have dropped their hello money or reduced it - or brought in ways to pay it - or considered age - or , I've seen one offer early bird reduction in entry fee , imagine offering an early bird option in a top club, would have been unimaginable 10 years.

Yes maybe a couple of courses are totally insulated - but you know what, I think many are bluffing their way through the last few years - and behind the facade , the carpets are a little worn.

I was told a very very famous club in Dublin has spent too much money in the vanity years - crazy dreams and ideas of grandeur of the past.

So - I'm interested in golf doing well. But golf's problem is - the structure is about you doing well, your club winning over another, you doing better at your club for you. It is the way real life is. But, it is not great for a sport in the end. It dies a slow painful death.

Golf is no more immune to recession than anything else but I wouldn't confuse cyclical economics with the fundamental structure of the game. I think the core of golf is pretty solid, given that is both a minority sport and expensive to provide.
If you strip away the crazy over investment of the mid noughties in new courses and the occasional rush of blood by some established clubs, resulting in big debt, I am pretty confident that a fundamental equilibrium exists between "real" supply (sustainable, well run clubs) and "real" demand (golfers who are willing to give as well as take).
You will always have volatility at the margins; what really counts is a solid membership and realistic rates.
By all means applaud the clubs offering "flexible" deals, having listened to the "untapped market". Just don't be surprised when they come looking for a levy to stave off bankruptcy or foreclosure.

Milkers · 21-12-2014 10:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

LOL
Why would a club charge less than people are willing to pay?

Despite the gratuitous LOL there are many reasons a club would charge less than the market allows. In fact the only reason a golf club should base its entry criteria primarily on who can pay the most would be if the main raison d'etre of that club was to make money. If the primary purpose of the club is something else then there may well be better criteria than wealth for entry.

First Up · 21-12-2014 11:16pm

Milkers wrote: »

Despite the gratuitous LOL there are many reasons a club would charge less than the market allows. In fact the only reason a golf club should base its entry criteria primarily on who can pay the most would be if the main raison d'etre of that club was to make money. If the primary purpose of the club is something else then there may well be better criteria than wealth for entry.

What if the club is facing big expenditure - drainage, new bunkers, re-modelling greens, land acquisition or just future proofing? Member clubs are not for profit - income is used, not divided amongst the members.

grip n rip · 21-12-2014 11:33pm

Lads let me save you all a lot of debate , the world has moved on , no more are people 25-40 interested in wearing silly jumpers drinking brandy at the club bar .

The future for golf is without doubt distance or cheap membership and play other clubs open comps . Variety is the spice of life & if i can play a different course every week for €15-€20 i will . The sooner the other "established" clubs realise that and come up with a solution or alternative the better for them. Sad but true.

Otherwise a lot of established clubs will be in trouble - (and watch them offer all sorts then)

Feel free to discuss

FixdePitchmark · 21-12-2014 11:40pm

Milkers wrote: »

Despite the gratuitous LOL there are many reasons a club would charge less than the market allows. In fact the only reason a golf club should base its entry criteria primarily on who can pay the most would be if the main raison d'etre of that club was to make money. If the primary purpose of the club is something else then there may well be better criteria than wealth for entry.

Well said.
There are so many great sporting clubs and societies - that don't charge a cent.

Hello money is not just about cash for the coffers, it has a dual purpose. It is a statement.
There is a naivety if you think it is just basic economics. I'll use an actual golfers quote here.
"You couldn't let every Tom Dick and Harry in".

The best sporting organisations are based on a philanthropic ideal.
The kids in my area play hurling for free. FREE - all equipment etc.

For all the talk of people not getting golf clubs. I think it is golf (GUI) and golf clubs that have not got it - they should be trying to turn a nepotistc hobby into a national sport. There is no reason that bloody triathlon or cycling should grow and golf diminish.

It is a bit embarrassing for golf - that pubs have done more for golf , than golf has done for golf.

Target schools - Target local areas near clubs.

The penny just won't drop.

I'd give the time myself - if some kid wanted an OTT swing :P

Yes - we have reached an end point.

I will sing with joy - when the golf community approaches one of my kids to play golf. They won't have to in this instance - but that is not the point.

but - I've been waiting 20 years for something - nothing so far.

The structure of the game is wrong access to the game is wrong.
Golf is just selfish. It has to change or die.

Finished.

First Up · 21-12-2014 11:49pm

grip n rip wrote: »

Lads let me save you all a lot of debate , the world has moved on , no more are people 25-40 interested in wearing silly jumpers drinking brandy at the club bar .

The future for golf is without doubt distance or cheap membership and play other clubs open comps . Variety is the spice of life & if i can play a different course every week for €15-€20 i will . The sooner the other "established" clubs realise that and come up with a solution or alternative the better for them. Sad but true.

Otherwise a lot of established clubs will be in trouble - (and watch them offer all sorts then)

Feel free to discuss

Great plan, as long as someone else goes to the cost and trouble of providing those courses. Any suggestions?

First Up · 22-12-2014 12:03am

I'm reminded of the story of Robin Hood - Prince of Thieves. He had a great thing going - rob the rich folk coming through the forest and spread the proceeds. Result - popularity and strike a blow for the little man.
All went well until it hit a snag; the rich folk stopped coming through the forest.
Think about it.

grip n rip · 22-12-2014 12:04am

First Up wrote: »

Great plan, as long as someone else goes to the cost and trouble of providing those courses. Any suggestions?

capitalism will take care of it , its a free market . Thank to all the lads paying €1-2000 per annum for membership and upkeep of the clubs but i will pay the €20 once or twice a year to play and enjoy it. I see no problem with that .

Fact is visiting golfers open day money is an important income supply to clubs these days

Larry Wildman · 22-12-2014 12:07am

There will always be exclusive and expensive golf clubs (primarily) in Dublin because there are plenty of wealthy people.

Not everyone wants to share a golf course with a load of taxi drivers playing in a society outing.

grip n rip · 22-12-2014 12:10am

Larry Wildman wrote: »

There will always be exclusive and expensive golf clubs (primarily) in Dublin because there are plenty of wealthy people.

Not everyone wants to share a golf course with a load of taxi drivers playing in a society outing.

Hahahahahaha !!!

dan_ep82 · 22-12-2014 12:26am

The taxi driver comment is what's wrong with golf and has no place in modern day Ireland. Sure why not ask for bank statements as a prerequisite to joining.

I know a lot of golfers, generally the older generation, complain about juniors and lower fees and it sounds a lot like jealousy justified with "think of the club" instead of "think of the kids" . I know first hand the attitude juniors get as I'm unfortunate enough to look like one at first glance and it's no wonder golf is declining when they are only tolerated instead of being encouraged.

For a lot of people it's the attitude added to the fee's that put them off. 90% of the members I played with from my club were working class and without them it wouldn't be around long like every other course.

GreeBo · 22-12-2014 12:49am

Milkers wrote: »

Despite the gratuitous LOL there are many reasons a club would charge less than the market allows. In fact the only reason a golf club should base its entry criteria primarily on who can pay the most would be if the main raison d'etre of that club was to make money. If the primary purpose of the club is something else then there may well be better criteria than wealth for entry.

The main reason of a club, thats owned by its members is to make it the best club it can be, for its members.
Money does this, if you believe otherwise you dont understand the business of running a golf club.

In any case, I dont think anyone mentioned basing entry on ability to pay, other than yourself. Its a part of it of course, there is no point in allowing people into your club who cant pay to maintain and improve the club.

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