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UNBELIEVEABLE!!! N81 forgotten about again!

  • 04-02-2008 7:22pm
    #1
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭


    Tallaght By-Pass Extension

    Click to see location map. - Section within the adminstrative area of South Dublin County Council shown diagramatically in red and marked a - b.

    Present Position: January 08 - NRA have decided that this scheme be transferred to the Kildare National Roads Design Office. The scheme has been extended to Hollywood Cross, Co Wicklow. The EIS is being prepared for that section within the administrative area of South Dublin County Council. The balance of the scheme requires a route selection process to be commenced in Kildare and Wicklow.
    Construction is unlikely to commence prior to 2010. mad.gifmad.gifmad.gif



    I honestly do not believe this bull****!! How much longer are they going to make us wait in these poxy traffic ques. We need to do something about this crap. Does any one have any ideas on what could be done.
    For a start i am passing on this sdcc message to all tallaght councillors and reprasentatives- for all thats worth! Any one else know other avenues we could persue?!
    user_online.gifreport.gif progress.gif


Comments

  • #2
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Why exactly did you post the same post three times? :confused:


  • #3
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    micmclo wrote: »
    Why exactly did you post the same post three times? :confused:
    Basically so more people would see this news and post coments. i did post in two differnt forums.


  • #4
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Fair enough. I was referring more to the fact that it's posted twice in the Infrastructure forum.


  • #5
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    In fairness, the N81 is a road to nowhere! The southern terminus at the N80 is a windswept T junction on another national secondary road that doesn't carry all that much traffic. The towns the N81 serves are of little consequence beyond Tallaght. Blessington must be the biggest town the N81 passes through outside Dublin?

    Anyway....the N81 as an entirety is being overshadowed by the rapidly improving N11 to the east and the (relatively) soon to be complete M9 to the west. The M9 is going to take a large amount of traffic off the N81, as it will from the N78.

    In my opinion the N81 and N78 should have their national status stripped from them upon completion of the M9. There's probably more chance of SDCC building the Tallaght Bypass Extension than the NRA as they have far more pressing priorities than improving links to Blessington as following the completion of the M9 only traffic eminating from Blessington is likely to continue using the N81 to reach Dublin.

    It's a bad road but I don't think it should be a national route. I also think the priorities for the N81 lie beyond the area of that map, ie some of the really twisty sections further south.

    Ultimately it must be remembered there are many Nnational primary routes in worse nick than the N81!


  • #6
    Ham'nd'egger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Tallaght By-Pass Extension

    Construction is unlikely to commence prior to 2010.
    I honestly do not believe this bull****!! How much longer are they going to make us wait in these poxy traffic ques. We need to do something about this crap. Does any one have any ideas on what could be done.
    For a start i am passing on this sdcc message to all tallaght councillors and reprasentatives- for all thats worth! Any one else know other avenues we could persue?!
    user_online.gifreport.gif progress.gif

    OP, In all fairness, you can't just decide to build a road quicker because of a few e mails or petitions. The pecking order on priority on road building is made years back; traffic congestion, traffic levels, funds, political pressure, anticipated growth, industrial needs and other local roads all play a part in this, to name a few. Just because personally you are affected sadly will not accelerate the project. Final designs, route selection, CPO's and relevant appeals, tendering for a contractor; they all need to be undertaken as well as Environmental Studies on the road route before it can begin.

    Road building takes time, you just need to bide your time and be thankful that you have some idea as to when work will begin. In the meantime, have you contacted your local TD or councillors to ascertain what has been done in relation to the road and if there is issues that may help or hinder it's timeframe?


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  • #7
    Doodah7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭Doodah7


    murphaph wrote: »
    In fairness, the N81 is a road to nowhere! The southern terminus at the N80 is a windswept T junction on another national secondary road that doesn't carry all that much traffic. The towns the N81 serves are of little consequence beyond Tallaght. Blessington must be the biggest town the N81 passes through outside Dublin?

    Anyway....the N81 as an entirety is being overshadowed by the rapidly improving N11 to the east and the (relatively) soon to be complete M9 to the west. The M9 is going to take a large amount of traffic off the N81, as it will from the N78.

    In my opinion the N81 and N78 should have their national status stripped from them upon completion of the M9. There's probably more chance of SDCC building the Tallaght Bypass Extension than the NRA as they have far more pressing priorities than improving links to Blessington as following the completion of the M9 only traffic eminating from Blessington is likely to continue using the N81 to reach Dublin.

    It's a bad road but I don't think it should be a national route. I also think the priorities for the N81 lie beyond the area of that map, ie some of the really twisty sections further south.

    Ultimately it must be remembered there are many Nnational primary routes in worse nick than the N81!

    Such rubbish.

    You make out that N11 is right next door to the N81 but it is about 50km over the Wicklow Mountains!!!

    The M9 will have little or no effect on the N81 as the N81 is not used anyway to get to Athy, Carlow or anywhere else on that route.

    In addition the N81 is one of the main roads leading to Citywest and the traffic mornings and evenings is a nightmare. You have a case where a dual carriageway is reduced to a single lane that twists and turns its way to one of the largest industrial estates in the country.

    The original plan was two seperate projects: a) extend the Tallaght by-pass to Citywest and b) widen the rest of the N81 to Blessington. By combining the two projects it will delay extending the road to Citywest which should be a priority.

    Just because a road to end up anywhere of significance, doesn't mean that the areas that the road serves along the way are not important.


  • #8
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The N81 as pointed out is a feeder road of some significance. It's the only road which takes you along the western edge of the Wicklow mountains. The N9 isn't a feasible alternative for most of the route because most of the roads joining the N9 and N81 are tiny backroads meandering through mountains.

    There are also tonnes of towns and other areas along its length. Surely if it was a "road to nowhere", you wouldn't have tailbacks from Tallaght to Blessington every morning and the reverse in the evening?

    It's also a pretty dangerous road, in the scheme of things. There have been a number of serious accidents and deaths along its length. It has a tendency to become quite slippy in light rain and blind in the dark. While perhaps 2010 is a little late, if you drive the route, you can see the issues they probably have with planning and CPOs. That it goes straight through green belt doesn't help, but most of the land bordering the road is privately owned and would need significant work to allow it to handle a road.


  • #9
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Perhaps (anyone) buying a house along the very poor N81 wasn't such a good idea then. There's been quarries and the associated slow moving HGVs up along it since I was a kid (I grew up near enough it in County Dublin). I wouldn't have bought a house in Blessignton 20 years ago due to those trucks, let alone today.

    Anyone living in or around the southern end of the N81 who opts not to head over to the N11 or M9 to reach Dublin will need their heads examined. Rather than wasting tonnes of money on a national secondary road, why not detrunk it and spend the monies on upgrading the east-west routes to provide better access to the two national primary routes either side of it.

    People have gone a bit mad with their roads expectations. I calculate that when our planned interurbans are complete and all HQDCs converted to blue signs we'll have in the order of 700 miles of motorway in the RoI. That is a LOT and doesn't include the likes of the N11 at all! The problem with such roadbuilding is that people expect every single national route to be replaced with a D2 or better and it's not going to happen. There is still no direct motorway connection across the Pennines between Manchester and Sheffield and a similar road to the N81 connects the two cities!


  • #10
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    So Kildare and Wicklow County councils should build a DC

    Blessington -> Naas

    and DC Blessington->N11 over the wicklow mountains through the Sally Gap ?

    and change the N81 to a cart track

    Yes, a wonderfully inclusive approach to road planning there


  • #11
    Doodah7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,769 ✭✭✭Doodah7


    Murphaph: you are admitting that the N81 is poor yet begrudge an upgrade of the road. Bizarre.

    In addition, you seem obsessed with the end of the N81 and that people should use the N11 or N9. You forget that there is some 80km of road IN BETWEEN that serves thousands of people. Also you don't seem to realise that an awful lot of people living in Naas and it environs use the N81 rather than the N7 becuase of Newlands and the Red Cow, so your alternatives are worthless.

    Personally I don't see any difficulty whatsoever have hundreds of kilometres of motorway or HQDC. Great. Hopefully they might double the amount over the next twenty years. The more the better.


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  • #12
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tallpaul wrote: »
    Murphaph: you are admitting that the N81 is poor yet begrudge an upgrade of the road. Bizarre.
    I'm not against minor upgrades of bad bends etc. but I would be against the notion of anything approaching dualling the N81 to Blessington.
    tallpaul wrote: »
    In addition, you seem obsessed with the end of the N81 and that people should use the N11 or N9. You forget that there is some 80km of road IN BETWEEN that serves thousands of people. Also you don't seem to realise that an awful lot of people living in Naas and it environs use the N81 rather than the N7 becuase of Newlands and the Red Cow, so your alternatives are worthless.
    Well the N81 can't be all that bad if "an awful lot of people in Naas" use it instead of the N7. Surely a road as bad as you purport the N81 to be would discourage use by folks who live right beside a major arterial route. You can't argue the toss both ways. The N81 is a national secondary route. All the national primary routes should be above it in the pecking order for upgrade and when we have the likes of the N20 linking Cork to Limerick, well, you can see there are higher priorities than the N81.

    Also, you believe my alternative route (N7) is worthless. Well it's a D3AP with motorway characteristics and Newlands Cross is included in the roads funding for 2008 and the Red Cow is currently being converted to fully freeflowing but you believe this to be worthless? Just how much roadbuilding do you expect? The N81 junction with the M50 is not even due to be freeflowed as part of the M50 upgrade.
    tallpaul wrote: »
    Personally I don't see any difficulty whatsoever have hundreds of kilometres of motorway or HQDC. Great. Hopefully they might double the amount over the next twenty years. The more the better.
    I don't see any problem with it eaither either. However it does not imply that every national route could or should be upgraded to dual carraigeway or better. if people have chosen to live along a secondary road then moan that it keeps getting overlooked while primary routes are upgraded ahead of it, well I have no sympathy because buying a house along a twisty national secondary road with a long history of HGV traffic to the quarries, and expecting to be in Dublin in 20 minutes or something was plain dumb.


  • #13
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    ok;
    murphaph you obviously arent stuck in traffic day after day on the n81 as many thousands of people are, either that or you enjoy traffic.
    If the n81 is improved then traffic flow in the wider area is also improved. If you look at this closley this has massive potential as the n82 would be "de-clogged" thus releiving citywest. Light sequences can then be altered so as to push traffic onto the n81 quicker thus relieving traffic on the greenhills road which will somewhat "de-clogg" the walkinstown area and.
    Another example being the belgard road which would also benefit from this upgrade as there would be more capacity on the n81 for its traffic.
    So what im trying to say is the upgrade of the n81 will not just benefit (conservative estimate) 64,282 people living in tallaght and the rest further out along the route, but a much larger area of south west dublin.


  • #14
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tom1ie wrote: »
    ok;
    murphaph you obviously arent stuck in traffic day after day on the n81 as many thousands of people are, either that or you enjoy traffic.
    If the n81 is improved then traffic flow in the wider area is also improved. If you look at this closley this has massive potential as the n82 would be "de-clogged" thus releiving citywest. Light sequences can then be altered so as to push traffic onto the n81 quicker thus relieving traffic on the greenhills road which will somewhat "de-clogg" the walkinstown area and.
    Another example being the belgard road which would also benefit from this upgrade as there would be more capacity on the n81 for its traffic.
    So what im trying to say is the upgrade of the n81 will not just benefit (conservative estimate) 64,282 people living in tallaght and the rest further out along the route, but a much larger area of south west dublin.
    I'm afraid you don't really understand commuter paterns at all. World experience tells us that widening and building new roads does little or nothing to reduce overall congestion. Ultimately all traffic from the commuter belt is city bound and at some point it will start to move slowly (unless we go back to that diamond, underground motorways to massive underground carparks or other such sci-fi). It just depends where it begins to move slowly.

    I'm sure you don't really believe that an upgrade of the N81 would miraculously cure traffic woes in the greater Tallaght area overnight. If you do, take a look at international experience.

    Anyway, for the record, i work on the Greenhills Road and I live in Clonsilla D15. It takes me 20 to 25 minutes on the R112/R109 etc. through many may sets of traffic lights to get to/from work regardless of time of day. I use a motorcycle and leave the cage (car) in the drive mon-fri. If more people walked/cycled/biked/mopeded into work then congestion would be reduced. Thousands and thousands of commuters who CHOSE to live along a poor secondary road with no prospect of rail transport etc. can hardly complain about traffic now can they?


  • #15
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    So who works for Roadstone on this thread? :D
    tom1ie wrote: »
    ok;
    murphaph you obviously arent stuck in traffic day after day on the n81 as many thousands of people are, either that or you enjoy traffic.
    If the n81 is improved then traffic flow in the wider area is also improved. If you look at this closley this has massive potential as the n82 would be "de-clogged" thus releiving citywest. Light sequences can then be altered so as to push traffic onto the n81 quicker thus relieving traffic on the greenhills road which will somewhat "de-clogg" the walkinstown area and.
    Another example being the belgard road which would also benefit from this upgrade as there would be more capacity on the n81 for its traffic.
    So what im trying to say is the upgrade of the n81 will not just benefit (conservative estimate) 64,282 people living in tallaght and the rest further out along the route, but a much larger area of south west dublin.
    Huh?


  • #16
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    No mention of the Belgard Road would be complete without seeking a rational explanation of it`s reduction from a Dual Carriageway from the N7,Newlands to a botharìn between the Old Blessington Rd and the N81 itself.

    It`s almost as if somebody within SDCC or perhaps the NRA downed a full bottle of Southern Comfort before entering their password into Microsoft Winda`s Road Design wizard.

    I can never see a poster for that animated film,The Incredibles,without wondering if it was set in or around the SDCC HQ (County Hall?).

    There is little doubt that the current Tallaght (Roads) Strategy is a fiasco which is being overshadowed by the M50 Grand Design.

    The Tallaght roads network stands alone as testimony to a complete and total lack of understanding as to how to deal effectively with urban traffic flow management.

    Although in mitigation it must be realized that the Burke/Lawlor/Redmond principles were in full flow around the time when the current setup was being built.

    Ah well,sure won`t d`oul Metro solve all the traffic problems anyway..... :eek: :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #17
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    murphaph wrote: »
    I'm afraid you don't really understand commuter paterns at all. World experience tells us that widening and building new roads does little or nothing to reduce overall congestion. Ultimately all traffic from the commuter belt is city bound and at some point it will start to move slowly (unless we go back to that diamond, underground motorways to massive underground carparks or other such sci-fi). It just depends where it begins to move slowly.
    Absolutely. From my experience of the N81 though, a massive amount of woes (both in terms of traffic and safety) would be solved by providing a better means for overtaking, i.e. a second lane. As you know, all it takes is one gravel truck with a nervous driver behind him and everyone is driving 50km/h from Blessington to Tallaght.

    Straightening the bends wouldn't help that much and widening the road wouldn't help. Even a number of overtaking lanes along the route, signposted (e.g. "1km to overtaking lane") would be preferable.


  • #18
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    As someone who travels the route at lot; it does actually move along except in the mornings from embankment->M50 and then really only from embankment->fortunestown.

    But we see political promises being abandoned; wasn't fox's daughter promised N81 DC Blessington-Tallaght as part of supporting FF two governments ago ?

    Murphaph - people buy houses for their own reason, until your government puts in disincentives to buy in certain areas then what else can you do ?

    Alek : No buses go up that bit of the Belgard Road; also it moves fairly quick , it's single carriage to facillitate the zebra crossing from the Abberley court to the Square

    it slows down by being blocked from the oncoming traffic on the roundabout from the Square, which it would also be if it was DC


  • #19
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    trellheim wrote: »
    Murphaph - people buy houses for their own reason, until your government puts in disincentives to buy in certain areas then what else can you do ?
    Are you telling me that the government should force you into buying in a particular place? Don't you have free will? People buy in certain areas because they want 'a house that's too big for them with garden they rarely see in daylight' generally. People believe they are buying quality of life in the country or whatever but in reality they are buying into the commuter nightmare and would have better quality of life in a smaller apartment dwelling closer to where they work. If the traffic nightmare I keep hearing about here isn't a disincentive than not much the government could or would do will stop people buying into this 'idyllic dream'.

    Btw, I bolded the "your" because although they are the government of my country, I certainly didn't vote for FF.


  • #20
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Quote Trellheim:

    " Alek : No buses go up that bit of the Belgard Road; also it moves fairly quick , it's single carriage to facillitate the zebra crossing from the Abberley court to the Square

    it slows down by being blocked from the oncoming traffic on the roundabout from the Square, which it would also be if it was DC"

    Yes indeed Trellheim it IS a single carriageway,but not as we know it :rolleyes:

    The Zebra Crossing from the Abberley to Mc Donalds has to be one of the most dangerous of it`s type,if only for the ambiguity with which it operates.

    Road surface colouring,Belisha Beacons (!!) and the presence of upright railway sleepers behind which many pedestrians are concealed all serve to make it a textbook case in Tomfoolery.
    The issue of Buses using the road is of no relevance,except perhaps to underline some possibly good reasons why they SHOULD be using it.

    I remain bamboozled at why a Local Authority would REDUCE the original lane setup at this location to one which is of appreciably higher risk.

    There are some other more acceptable means of "facilitating" a pedestrian crossing on a Dual Carriagewaywhich might be of greater benefit here.

    The present setup smacks of somebody realizing that a pedestrian crossing here was a non-runner but being in thrall to a motley crue of various "developers" as to facilitating pedestrian access.

    I have always considered this particular location as being ideal for a raised pedestrian walkway beginning much further back towards the old Tallaght village and ramping gently upward to bring the walker down to ground MUCH nearer to the Square itself,possibly even directly into the centre via an atrium or somesuch...however this would effectively short circuit The Retail Centre and Mc D`s which may explain tthe reasoning behind the current bit of an oul crossing... :rolleyes:

    The entire issue does underline our National reluctance to effectively plan ANYTHING as the manner in which the Tallaght Square Area has "developed" cannot be said to display much committment to any notion of Urban "Planning" as opposed to facilitating developers and speculators. :eek:


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #21
    trellheim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,965 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Alec : yes it seems strange to me why they did it that way; as with so much else, they seem to have budget to do something, then forget all about it once it's done.


    Murphaph : never said you did vote for FF . doesn't stop them being your government though.

    and I did say people buy for their own reasons. If they want to buy on the N81 and drive the N81 to Tallaght and beyond - that's their choice

    [ Note I don't live anywhere near the N81 but have driven it more times than I care to remember over the last 25 years ]


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  • #22
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    trellheim wrote: »
    Murphaph : never said you did vote for FF . doesn't stop them being your government though.
    I prefer the term "the government" ;)
    trellheim wrote: »
    and I did say people buy for their own reasons. If they want to buy on the N81 and drive the N81 to Tallaght and beyond - that's their choice
    As it is their choice to sit in traffic when there are apartments available for sale at similar cost in Dublin proper.


  • #23
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Murphaph you are obviously against the upgrading of the n81. What would your soloution to the traffic problem caused by the lack of capacity on the n81 be exactly? Without banning cars from tallaght of course :D


  • #24
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Also more info i forgot to post yesterday, but it looks like kildare county council have got the task of upgrading the n81. Thats confirmed from an e mail from a councillor. Apparently sdcc dont have adequate resources to deal with it while the m50 upgrde is going on! oh oh:o


  • #25
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    tom1ie wrote: »
    Murphaph you are obviously against the upgrading of the n81. What would your soloution to the traffic problem caused by the lack of capacity on the n81 be exactly? Without banning cars from tallaght of course :D
    Read my posts properly tom1ie. I said I was all in favour of eliminating bad bends through minor realignments and so on. Even climber lanes/2+1 if they can fit them in the existing corridor but I would be totally against a large scale project such as dualling the N81 from Tallaght to Blessigton.

    My (and any mature country's) solution to the lack of capacity on all our roads is to improve public transport and discourage sprawl through the provision of such public transport in a core city area. You seem to believe that you can roadbuild your way out of congestion when experience the world over (including our own) tells you this is generally not the case.


  • #26
    tom1ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,729 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    I totally agree that intergrated public transport is the soloution. Not crazy ass road building-Like ive alredy said when i mentioned the p+r idea at citywest (possibly in a different thread apologies if so). However where a large road building scheme is warrented- and i belive that in this case it is, then it should be built. Why should people in tallaght and beyond be forced to endure constant gridlock because their main road is an n with two digits instead of one.


  • #27
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,888 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    I have mixed views on this - the N81 Tallaght Bypass should have been extended westwards to the Embankment years ago - in fact, there were plans do do this as far back as 1989 but nothing in the intervening 20 years has since been done and the road is now an absolute shambles.

    I think that the N81 should be dualled as far as the Embankment and then 2+1 or Rooskey bypass style 2+2 in places to Blessington, but a complete dualling to Blessington would just encourage the town, already considerably expanded, to mushroom out of all proportion.

    After Blessington, the N81 is fairly quiet although its alignment and width are poor. These sections should be gradually improved with wide and straight S2.


  • #28
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    After Blessington, the N81 is fairly quiet although its alignment and width are poor. These sections should be gradually improved with wide and straight S2.
    They are doing some work on the section between Hollywood and the turn off for Donard. It's not clear what exactly, just a bit of resurfacing and tidying up.


  • #29
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Alun wrote: »
    They are doing some work on the section between Hollywood and the turn off for Donard. It's not clear what exactly, just a bit of resurfacing and tidying up.
    Resurfacing and widening really. There was tonnes of overgrown hedging and the edge of the road was very poor. There's a bridge just before the pub that I think they're reinforcing.


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