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Tesco. no comeback with unsuitable DTT TV

13

Comments

  • #102
    maxg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    watty wrote: »
    Hmm ... search other posts by maxg and axer. Clicking on someone's name ...

    Is it possible to perform these discussion without any form of insults?


  • #103
    matt-dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭matt-dublin


    With all this argument I still haven't seen any evidence showing any if the retailers are returning tv's contrary to several claims in this thread.

    If this was the case everyone and their aunt would be going back to get their money back.

    Also is a tv bought a year ago refused at original purchase value? A full hd digital tv last year is almost the same price as a 3d tv this year.

    There's way too many claims but no evidence to back anything up


  • #104
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    matt-dublin wrote: »
    With all this argument I still haven't seen any evidence showing any if the retailers are returning tv's contrary to several claims in this thread.
    The branches must contact head office before they can refund, if not you go to the small claims court and say that Tesco knowingly sold you a pup. It costs €15 to fight the case over a €1500 telly, now that is good value :cool:


  • #105
    HappyHarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭HappyHarry


    maxg wrote: »
    Where wrote Tescos on the box the sanyo TV from 2009 will support irish TV? The name saorview was not choosen at the time.

    Another attempt at a strawman argument? Or are you just trying to wind people up? It seems that in every post you try and twist or mis-represent what people are saying and avoid the topic at hand. Maybe you just enjoy arguing for the sake of it. Kind of ruins the credibility of you posts.

    No-one said it was written on the box that it "will support Irish TV" but something sold as a TV in ROI should serve that purpose.

    In the cases we are discussing the box said "Digital TV" not just TV.
    matt-dublin wrote:
    With all this argument I still haven't seen any evidence showing any if the retailers are returning tv's contrary to several claims in this thread.

    So you think people are making it up? If you require proof of everything that is said why waste you time on the internet? What evidence do you expect? Perhaps people should video their trips to the retailers and post them online?

    I see you are a fan of Maxg's posts, that explains a lot :rolleyes:


  • #106
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Skyuser wrote: »
    Tesco are not in the wrong here. They never advertised the tv as Saorview capable.
    You need a TV license for a TV.

    If you have a device that doesn't have a TV tuner it's not a TV. Monitors don't require TV licenses, but a video recorder with a tuner does.

    Shortly Saorview will be the only game in town. You will either need a TV with an MPG4 tuner OR a separate device with it's own tuner to receive TV broadcasts.


    The TV said DIGITAL - if you use a SCART set top box you are still on analogue. If you use HDMI then (like SCART) you are using the TV as a monitor and would not have to buy a TV license.




    Short version : Once analogue transmissions are turned off , the device will no longer be able to receive broadcast transmissions and it will cease to be a TV, so it will no longer be as described.


  • #107
    maxg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    HappyHarry wrote: »
    Another attempt at a strawman argument? Or are you just trying to wind people up? It seems that in every post you try and twist or mis-represent what people are saying and avoid the topic at hand. Maybe you just enjoy arguing for the sake of it. Kind of ruins the credibility of you posts.

    Do you know the saying play the ball and not the man?
    Are your arguments so weak?
    No-one said it was written on the box that it "will support Irish TV" but something sold as a TV in ROI should serve that purpose.

    Nobody can say something against "should". In your older posting you are saying the law say so without any proof.
    In the cases we are discussing the box said "Digital TV" not just TV.

    Ah well and why such TV's don't have to support satellite in your opinion? Digital broadcast is digital broadcast.


  • #108
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The TV said DIGITAL - if you use a SCART set top box you are still on analogue. If you use HDMI then (like SCART) you are using the TV as a monitor and would not have to buy a TV license. .

    Only if the legal definition of a television set is suitably amended which unfortunately seems unlikely..


  • #109
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    maxg wrote: »

    Ah well and why such TV's don't have to support satellite in your opinion? Digital broadcast is digital broadcast.

    Satellite isn't terrestrial. It's an add on service like cable.

    Note that the TV licence is not about a TV per-se, but about an overall apparatus that can be more than one box (i.e. tuner box + monitor box), but since 1936 or so the universally accepted definition of a Television is display of video and Sound sound via demodulation of an RF Signal from an aerial using an integral tuner. Since about the same time the universal definition of a "Monitor" is a display (sound is optional connection) that takes un-modulated "baseband" video without any RF tuner, directly.

    No need to confuse TV sets with TV licences. Not the same thing.

    A Digital TV is designed that the aerial receives a Terrestrial signal feeds an RF tuner, the analogue output (baseband) from the tuner is digitised and decoded to give the video display and sound output. The only difference from Analogue TV to Digital TV is that the Analogue Modulation and the Terrestrial Radio signal represents digital data and not analogue brightness levels.

    Analogue
    There are basically two main incompatible types of SECAM, Two main kinds of PAL (sub types of PAL have incompatible sound), and one main kind of NTSC. All of these use a separated added Colour analogue signal to what was originally a 625 line (576 digital is same visible lines) or a 525 line Monochrome signal.

    Only TVs compatible with PAL-I where sold in Ireland via Retail. Later some added extra compatibility such as NTSC, SECAM or PAL B/G. No one would have expected to sell a TV set without PAL-I, as that is implied by selling a TV set in Ireland. Note that NO monitor uses PAL-I, even if it's PAL Composite. Some unscrupulous retailers in Ireland did sell some UK market PAL-I sets which had no UHF tuner. They always refunded/replaced if there was a complaint. Originally Argos would not sell UHF only TVs or Aerials here.

    Sale of Goods Act and Common sense applied.


    Totally Defunct TV signals are:
    405 line, 441 line, 819 line monochrome (NTSC 405 was tested though!)
    The Hybrid Analogue Digital never used Terrestrially, only on Satellite.
    625 line hybrid Digital (Satellite only, DMAC, D2MAC)
    1125 line Hybrid. (1080 visible NHK HD )

    There many Terrestrial (via Aerial ) Digital
    400px-Digital_broadcast_standards.svg.png
    So we have
    • DVB-T Originally MPEG2 (Now also backward compatible DVB-T, and MPEG4 versions)
    • ATSC (North America Compromise Modulation similar to Analogue Spectrum)
    • ISDB-T (includes Japanese and South America, Incompatible)
    • DMB-T

    Just like there were different PAL versions (one totally incompatible and the rest incompatible on Sound) but PAL-I was for UK, Ireland and a few other places, but Ireland needed a VHF tuner a Digital TV sold Retail in Ireland implies:
    1. Signal is received via the Aerial and integral RF tuner. Just like Analogue.
    2. Must be DVB-T (just like Analogue Must be PAL)
    3. The DVB-T flavour must include MPEG4, not just MPEG2 video and AAC+, not just MP2 audio and MHEG5, not just basic DVB information. Just like PAL-I and a VHF /UHF tuner was implied by an Analogue TV sale.

    The UK market packaging always has
    Freeview Logo and/or word. This is separate from Digital. This is one of two UK services. This means it has the MHEG5 needed for Ireland.
    Digital tick logo or Digital wording. This indicates it's DVB-T and since for UK market, not ATSC, ISDB-T or DMB-T
    Additional descriptive text about Digital
    Occasionally DVB/T
    Very occasionally mentions MPEG2. Rarely mentions MPEG4 even if the TV does it.

    The government warned people and CEDA warned Retailer and Manufacturers in February 2008 about labelling.

    After March 2008 and Before October 2009
    1) Simply putting a label Analogue Only in Ireland is fine.
    2) Labelling it Incompatible with Irish Digital is fine.
    3) Labelling it May be compatible with Irish Digital (because it has MPEG4) is fine.
    4) Leaving the labelling on packaging "as is" implies it's a Digital TV for Ireland. Because unless there is a disclaimer that it has no MPEG4, then "freeview" (indicates needed MHEG5), Digital tick (Indicated correct tuner) etc are correct and sale in Irish Retail implies MPEG4, like Analogue PAL sales in Ireland implied PAL-I.

    In the Sale of Goods Act, there is clear Refund, Repair or Replacement if the unit is not fit for use or of merchantable quality. The Package Description specifically is mentioned in the act as defining the Contract between Retailer and Customer as to the Use, so as warned by Government and CEDA the Retailers needed to amend the labelling.

    There was no onus to sell compatible TVs. Only to not mislead about what they actually selling.

    Why did no retailer anywhere to my knowledge amend the labelling? A phone call or fax quickly establishes which (ever increasing from late 2008) Models are compatible or not to slap appropriate labels.

    Could it be that the Retail trade assumed that would hurt sales of incompatible models and they thought they would get less than 10% complaints/returns anyway due to 80% used as Monitors and few people knowing consumer rights?

    They didn't break the law. As long as they sort out people that are firm about replacement/refund they are not breaking any law.

    But it's a travesty to suggest this is not covered by the Act and it shows how poor Consumer protection and Publicity is that nothing whatsoever was done or is being done about the labelling of Retail stock in Ireland.

    It's a separate bizarre issue as to why the "public" information campaign didn't start in Mid 2008 and is only due to start end of February 2011, elections permitting. http://www.saortv.info/2011/01/21/saorview-launch-on-track-for-may-2011/ Partly that is due to DCNER/Government/BCI/BAI wanting to "hold back" Public Service DTT information and Rollout till search for someone to take up Pay DTT licence was exhausted.

    No one is claiming the Retailers had to sell compatible TVs in 2008 to 2010.
    No one is claiming the Retailers broke any law then or now.
    But if they ARE selling a TV that says Digital on it, they are obliged to sort out complaining customers if the "Digital" doesn't work. A "no Freeview" disclaimer is irrelevant as that is just one of two UK services on DVB-T (Digital) and wasn't even on UK DTT originally. Saorview is even really the same name!

    Again the Government has fallen down on the job. Minister Ryan should have signed an SI or whatever as provisioned by the Broadcasting Act to set the ASO date back probably in August 2010. RTE assumes, and Ryan has said (but not signed to law) Q4 2012. November 2012 has been Mentioned. N.I. ASO plan has not been published because they want / need to co-ordinate with Ireland. But Ireland despite "mentioning" November 2012 and q4 2012 has not signed anything. The UK in previous ASO by area avoids a switch off between November and January, so 31th October/1st November 2012 makes sense.

    Any Retailer with any sense ought since December (before Christmas rush) have had prominent notices warning that all Analogue Only TVs will only be SCART or HDMI monitors (no Aerial signal) after Q4 2012. Argos are verbally warning customers.

    Why is no Retailer doing this yet? Too many incompatible Digital TVs they hope to get less than 10% returns on?

    Meanwhile my recommendation stands. Print pages from the Sale of Goods Act. If you didn't buy the TV in last month or so have a good explanation as to why you left it so long to complain. (didn't know service had started, so had not done a Digital Scan would be true for most. After all the Publicity doesn't start for over a month yet!) print RTE http://www.rte.ie/saorview/ pages and www.saortv.info pages. Be firm and polite. You need proof of purchase but not package.

    The retailer will likely refund or replace. It's worth going to Small Claims Court if they don't.

    Known reports of Replace/Refund of TVs labelled Digital, but incompatible
    • DID electrical - Replace TV bought several months ago this week. Unusually Video Worked, but no MHEG5. MHEG5 unlike Teletext isn't optional for compatibility. All "Freeview" and "Freeview HD" sets do MHEG5.
    • Argos - many refunds since November 2010
    • M&S - obtained replacement model not even in store. Prior Nov 2010
    • Aldi - 3rd Nov 2010: Refund on 2009 sale.
    • Tesco: After 28 days they never replace/refund without call to HQ. HQ usually authorise refund. You need to insist that they ask HQ.
    • Power City: yes
    • Lidl: Replacements (when they had them) and Refunds
    • PCWorld/Currys: Yes

    The longer you leave it past November 2010, the harder it will be to explain your case, even though the time limitations for "Damages" under the Act is 6 years. The NCA site explains this too.
    via http://www.wattystuff.net/2011/01/money-back-if-it-isnt-a-tv/


  • #110
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Further on Watty's post above, I bought a Picnic box from Curry's and every part of the box had the original material covered with blank labels. The Picnic box was to provide a new Sky service that never happened and so were dumped on the market, with no claims whatsoever as to what they could do, as the service was never going to happen

    All that is needed to cover retailers is to put a label over the Freeview words saying 'NOT SUITABLE FOR IRELAND's DIGITAL TV SERVICE' or words to that effect.


  • #111
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    All that is needed to cover retailers is to put a label over the Freeview I]and Digital [/I words saying 'NOT SUITABLE FOR IRELAND's DIGITAL TV SERVICE' or words to that effect.

    The €1,500,000 question is why did they not?

    Why was Currys selling a Picnic in Ireland at all? It's not even usable as Monitor. You can't even sell it as a satellite Radio unless a 7" LCD monitor included for the GUI.


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  • #112
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Maybe I am wrong .... not being a legal eagle .......

    but if I purchased a

    "Digital TV"

    in this jurisdiction then I have every right to expect that device to function correctly within the jurisdiction in a manner that I as purchaser would reasonably expect. (Will receive and display correctly Irish Digital TV signals)

    The matter then, IMO, would hinge around whether or not the seller had reasonable access to the specifications (at the time of sale) to determine if the device would indeed work in the jurisdiction.
    I believe that to be the case ...... the specifications had been determined and published.

    So if I purchased a Digital TV in Ireland in late 2009, and even if I did not test the functions of that TV until 2011, I would have every right to expect those functions to be present and working correctly.

    If the Irish Digital TV service is not receivable on that device then I believe that device does not comply with its advertised functions.
    That it may be suitable in another jurisdiction is of no interest or concern to me the purchaser. Likewise if I purchased Digital TV in France, I would not necessarily expect it to function in this jurisdiction, and would not expect to have any claim on the seller because of that.

    As such I would fully expect to receive a refund or replacement should I chose to return the device.

    regards.


  • #113
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Indeed, nothing to do with digital. What you describe was exactly the case during Analogue in 1970s to 1990s.

    Same applies to an FM radio. A Japanese Home market model does about 76MHz to 90MHz approx. Our Band is 87.5Mhz to 108MHz, I think. It says FM radio on the box.
    A few were sold by accident. Also a problem of course on many of the 2nd hand Car Japanese Imports.


  • #114
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    Why was Currys selling a Picnic in Ireland at all? .

    They did not sell them in Ireland. I bought mine in the UK.


  • #115
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    new argos catalogue out today.. mentions that the digital and freeview facilities on most of its tv's are not available in the republic of ireland... so much for clarity re mpg4 and saorview...


  • #116
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's what they SHOULD have said over two years ago.
    Does it identify ANY TVs as compatible (That's not important, they don't have to, nor obliged to sell any).

    What does it say about Analogue Switch Off?

    They told me a fortnight ago that the new Catalogue would identify compatible TVs, becuase in the store that didn't know and had been told to verbally warn anyone buying a TV that "Analogue would be turned off in 2012 and Most Digital TVs not compatible unless they have MPEG4".

    http://www.argos.ie/static/Browse/ID72/14419667/c_1/1|category_root|Home+entertainment+and+sat+nav|14419512/c_2/2|cat_14419512|Televisions|14419667.htm

    I'm not sure...
    Please note that the digital and Freeview features of this TV are not available in the Republic of Ireland
    Correct wording of disclaimer unlike Tesco,
    BUT do they actually have it on the correct Models?
    No disclaimer on Bush http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5369973.htm

    This LG 42LD450 is 100% compatible as far as I can tell
    http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5368644/c_1/1|category_root|Home+entertainment+and+sat+nav|14419512/c_2/3|cat_19780832|Televisions|14419667.htm
    Please note that the digital and Freeview features of this TV are not available in the Republic of Ireland
    I have one here and it even does the TV3/TG4 EBU teletext vs RTE MHEG text on RTE channels properly (some Strict D-Book models will ignore EBU Teletext if there is MHEG5 text)

    Oh dear. Anyone else want to check out a few?


  • #117
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    watty wrote: »
    It's what they SHOULD have said over two years ago.
    Does it identify ANY TVs as compatible (That's not important, they don't have to, nor obliged to sell any).

    What does it say about Analogue Switch Off?

    They told me a fortnight ago that the new Catalogue would identify compatible TVs, becuase in the store that didn't know and had been told to verbally warn anyone buying a TV that "Analogue would be turned off in 2012 and Most Digital TVs not compatible unless they have MPEG4".

    http://www.argos.ie/static/Browse/ID72/14419667/c_1/1|category_root|Home+entertainment+and+sat+nav|14419512/c_2/2|cat_14419512|Televisions|14419667.htm

    I'm not sure...

    Correct wording of disclaimer unlike Tesco,
    BUT do they actually have it on the correct Models?
    No disclaimer on Bush http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5369973.htm

    This LG 42LD450 is 100% compatible as far as I can tell

    I have one here and it even does the TV3/TG4 EBU teletext vs RTE MHEG text on RTE channels properly (some Strict D-Book models will ignore EBU Teletext if there is MHEG5 text)

    Oh dear. Anyone else want to check out a few?

    This disclaimer is not right either. When laundry indications were required to placed on garments, a lot of producers put 'Dry Clean Only' on everything. This was found to be misleading if in fact the garment could be laundered by more normal methods.

    Putting a disclaimer on a product saying 'No claims are made re this product and the purchaser accepts full responsibility for its use' would be nonsense and would be thrown out by any court as going against every consumer law.

    There has to be good faith on behalf of the retailer. That is fundamental to any consumer law, and erring with no disclaimer, or a blanket disclaimer, is no real defense. It is just as much a misleading ruse.

    But at least the purchaser will be made aware that questions should be asked. Worth only two cheers, I'm afraid.


  • #118
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    watty wrote: »
    You simply stated you didn't agree. Not once have you offered a clear explanation or evidence of why your opinion is correct.
    You are working on the assumption that fit for purpose lasts a certain amount of time but that is not in the law anywhere. If goods are fit for purpose at the time of purchase then they are fit for purpose. I have asked for some proof in law, a judgement or even something from a body like the NCA but you have not provided this - as I dont think there is such information available. At best this is a grey area and is far from clear in law.

    TV's bought with UHF/VHF tuners will work as televisions in Ireland right now thus they are fit for purpose and from what I know there are no definitive dates for switch off of the analogue signals yet.

    My opinion is that your opinion has no evidence to back it up just complete unqualified speculation.

    Is this clear enough for you? Can you provide any specific evidence?


  • #119
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Short version : Once analogue transmissions are turned off , the device will no longer be able to receive broadcast transmissions and it will cease to be a TV, so it will no longer be as described.
    Its description only matters at the time of contract formation. Its caveat emptor! A TV is a device that is capable of recieving television broadcast signals and displaying the picture and outputing the audio.

    A TV does not stop being a TV just because there is no signal for it to pick up. Is a television in specific parts of Ireland where you cannot receive RTE etc not a TV?


  • #120
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    you are splitting hairs. I know someone that will sell you a 405 TV.

    axer, don't you care at all about consumers in this country?

    Both Minister Ryan, RTE and others that are official have stated Analogue is ceasing in q4 2012. Minister Ryan has stated this in public record in answer to TDs. It is a fact.

    axer you are just choosing to ignore the plain meaning of law, when Retailers are not. You are helping no-one and simply thing that if you repeat your refutation of facts that people will somehow go away and not bother looking for refunds.

    I have no vested interest. What's yours?


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  • #121
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    axer wrote: »
    TV's bought with UHF/VHF tuners will work as televisions in Ireland right now thus they are fit for purpose and from what I know there are no definitive dates for switch off of the analogue signals yet.
    How many people would buy them if the Shop clearly labelled them:
    Incompatible with Irish Digital TV.
    This TV will not receive TV via the Aerial after Analogue Switch off in Q4 2021

    There is not an exact date set yet. But it is 100% fact that in January 2013 there will be no Analogue TV.

    Currently the is no law to stop Shops selling TVs that are not Digital Compatible. But the shop is generally going to lose if the consumer can show they were misled at time of sale.


  • #122
    maxg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 516 ✭✭✭maxg


    watty wrote: »
    y
    Both Minister Ryan, RTE and others that are official have stated Analogue is ceasing in q4 2012. Minister Ryan has stated this in public record in answer to TDs. It is a fact.

    From what date is this statement?
    The theme of this thread is still a sanyo TV bought from Tescos in 2009.
    Maybe you should check post#1 again.
    Btw wild guesses about consumer law without any proof help nobody.


  • #123
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    watty wrote: »
    axer, don't you care at all about consumers in this country?
    Yes, if you look through my posts you will see I have helped quite a number of them in the consumer forum but there is nothing I hate more when it comes to consumer rights is when people "know" and are so "sure" of their rights.
    watty wrote: »
    Both Minister Ryan, RTE and others that are official have stated Analogue is ceasing in q4 2012. Minister Ryan has stated this in public record in answer to TDs. It is a fact.
    My understanding is this is not law either though that I believe the october 2010 launch date was put into law but the end of analogue signal is supposed to happen q4 2012 but no date has been finalised thus we do not know for sure if it will even happen then.

    This means that because no date has been finalised as to when analogue will be turned off then we cannot assume for certain whether it will happen in 2012 or god knows things might completely change as time goes. We just do not know for sure. It is supposed to be then but a lot can change in the meantime.
    watty wrote: »
    axer you are just choosing to ignore the plain meaning of law, when Retailers are not. You are helping no-one and simply thing that if you repeat your refutation of facts that people will somehow go away and not bother looking for refunds.
    Obviously if you think retailers are breaking the law by selling the tvs then you must also think they are ignoring the meaning of the law. I have already stated that people should try and get refunds from retailers but not by quoting a law that does not cover their situation. They can chance their arm if they want but if they go in guns a blazin' they had better be concious of the fact that the law is far from clear on this issue.
    watty wrote: »
    I have no vested interest. What's yours?
    I have no vested interest other than correcting the people that seem so sure on the legal side of this issue when the law is far from clear on this.

    In general I don't stand up for the consumer nor do I stand up to businesses, I stand up for reality. Just take a look at posts like this where I challenge currys regarding their statutory obligations to consumers which was in relation to a TV in this instance. but then why are you making this personal when this should not be about me but rather about facts? I cannot see a reason to get personal over this.

    I wish the government had legislated on this (and for cases like this) but the fact is they haven't. I wonder why you keep posting definitives about the law when you have no proof other than your own unqualified speculation and optimism - thats what I take issue with and what I will continue to take issue with.


  • #124
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    watty wrote: »
    How many people would buy them if the Shop clearly labelled them:
    I would if I got a good deal. In fact there was a 400 euro 42" tv in tesco that was not saorview compatible that I was thinking of purchasing as I only use satellite anyway.
    watty wrote: »
    There is not an exact date set yet. But it is 100% fact that in January 2013 there will be no Analogue TV.
    I will believe it when it is legislated for. It is only europe that says there needs to be an ASO by the end of 2012. I'd say Ireland would be happy enough to just have DTT fully up and running for their 98% figure of coverage by then. They could decide to leave analogue on for another year after this - we cannot be 100% sure what will happen - this is Ireland after all, we couldnt plan a snow fight in the north pole.
    watty wrote: »
    Currently the is no law to stop Shops selling TVs that are not Digital Compatible. But the shop is generally going to lose if the consumer can show they were misled at time of sale.
    Thats far from clear in law so we will just have to wait and see what happens. In the meantime I would suggest you do not post information that it is clear in law that people are entitled to a refund since that is misleading.


  • #125
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    This thread could go on for ever and ever and ever and ever and I understand the make it a fully legal requirement. This fact alone means only one thing, retailers cannot be trusted! True of most retailers I suppose. Of course it should not be tolerated. FTA may not be everyones cup of tea, but having the basic tuners on board should be provided (and is a reasonable expectation). This is 2011. Let the customer decide what they will use the TV for. Its not an excuse to sell old tat.

    The simple facts are:

    1. Analogue Switch Off is the end of 2012, the final date the EU has mandated for. (referenced everywhere including Saorview Site, DCENR and in nearly every National and Local newspaper)

    2. The technical requirements for Irish digital terrestrial television (DTT) were first published by the DCENR in February 2008. In December 2008 RTÉ published its Minimum Receiver Requirements. RTÉ did not add any further technical requirements beyond what was already required in the Department’s specification (ie MPEG4 and MHEG5 as minimum requirements).

    3. CEDA (the electrical retailers association) members were written to so in 2008 to let them know this.

    4. DTT in its current form has actually been on since August 2008.

    5. We are still seeing old warehoused "MPEG2/Freeview/Digital" UK stock being sold in conjunction with MPEG4 suitable stock side by side by major UK chainstores without any proper information as to the TVs capabilities. This is misleading to the consumer who may not have time/be reluctant/not be able to absorb or get into intricate discussion about what they are buying the TV for and may believe and interpret the logo's and description as suitable for basic needs i.e. FTA reception. Bear in mind these TVs are being sold in Ireland not the UK and should be labeled as such!

    Whether its legal or not, the consumers association should be the last port of call for any decent large chainstore to end up on the end of. The worst form of advertising.

    Lets just give you an example of how the customer can easily have bought a suitable product or not. Take yourself out of the confusion that is a large TV showroom with loads and loads of TVs (all connected to the same Sky decoder box and showing Sky News). Forget that lets go to the Irish website, where you can peruse at your own ease. Should be easier ?

    Pop Quiz
    So heres 4 32" LCD Digital TVs in the €300-350. All described as:

    "HD ready"
    32 inch (82 cm) 16/9
    Freeview

    Some even make claims that "this high quality TV comes with a built-in Freeview tuner for a vast choice in TV channels and digital radio stations".

    Which will work suitable for Irish Digital and Analogue reception and which will work for only Analogue TV reception despite their digital claims and only then for less than 2 years at which stage no tuners will work and the television will be effectively become a monitor.

    1. SHARP LC32D12E

    2. SAMSUNG LE32C450

    3. LG 32LD450

    4. LOGIK L32DIGB20

    You still wouldn't know, would you ? Especially if you are any ordinary Joe. Well I can tell you that 2 are fully perfect (No 2 and 3) and 2 are useless (1 and 4) and ALL are in or around the same price (but remember I am posting on a technical forum).

    Thats what consumers are up against.

    So remember that when you make "legal" arguments for "Irish" retailers. They do not need your help believe me! They are more than capable at providing little/wrong/confusing advice whilst second guessing consumers and/or shifting incompatible stock. :)


  • #126
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    maxg wrote: »
    From what date is this statement?

    From March 2008
    Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Eamon Ryan): ...
    My Department has made it clear to all stakeholders involved in the development of Digital Terrestrial Television that 2012 is the date by which switch-over from the analogue to digital terrestrial services should be achieved.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2008/03/12/00048.asp
    STB wrote: »
    The simple facts are:

    1. Analogue Switch Off is the end of 2012, the final date the EU has mandated for. (referenced everywhere including Saorview Site, DCENR and in nearly every National and Local newspaper)

    There is no mandate yet (ask them for a link to the mandate). Back in 2005 and again last year they recommended 1st Jan 2012.

    Mandate on the way to clear the Digital Dividend spectrum of analogue TV by the end of Dec 2012. This is the closest I know of an EU ASO mandate.


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  • #127
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    axer wrote: »
    Yes, if you look through my posts you will see I have helped quite a number of them in the consumer forum but there is nothing I hate more when it comes to consumer rights is when people "know" and are so "sure" of their rights.

    You are helping nobody with your tiresome trolling, I see you have carefully avoided answering all the questions I put to you a few days ago while inelegantly cluttering the thread up. :(

    Read this again, sections 41 to 46 of the linked Consumer Protection Act 2007 are what I asked you to address.


  • #128
    STB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭STB


    The Cush wrote: »
    There is no mandate yet (ask them for a link to the mandate). Back in 2005 and again last year they recommended 1st Jan 2012.

    Mandate on the way to clear the Digital Dividend spectrum of analogue TV by the end of Dec 2012. This is the closest I know of an EU ASO mandate.

    Back in 2005 they did indeed recommend early 2012 despite some advising it would be end of 2012 according to the league tables. Some member States not listed in that table had not indicated their plans or had not yet indicated a switch-off date (Ireland for example).

    Since then we have indeed openly committed to a 2012 switch off, be it the Broadcasting Minister, the BAI the broadcaster and PSB RTE or indeed the legislation Section 139 of the Broadcasting Act 2009. All are clear and consistent published intentions. End 2012.

    The 2012 EU target for switch-off is expected to be met by almost all Member States. Ireland's will be coordinated with NI.


  • #129
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    STB wrote: »
    Since then we have indeed openly committed to a 2012 switch off,

    ...
    The 2012 EU target for switch-off is expected to be met by almost all Member States. Ireland's will be coordinated with NI.

    We've committed to the end of 2012 but no official EU mandate as some official Irish sites are saying.

    Post 2012 - Poland, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania.


  • #130
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    ok got my hands on the new hard copy of the argos catologue and as watty was told every tv has now either got "will not work with irish digital tv set top box or satellite box needed" or "irish digital compatable" on its item description...that leaves tesco as the only ones stuck with their heads in the sand like ostriches....denying that saorview even exists..


  • #131
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Read this again, sections 41 to 46 of the linked Consumer Protection Act 2007 are what I asked you to address.
    Is there a remedy for a refund or exchange for the consumer in this act?


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  • #132
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    channelsurfer2 wrote: »
    ok got my hands on the new hard copy of the argos catologue and as watty was told every tv has now either got "will not work with irish digital tv set top box or satellite box needed" or "irish digital compatable" on its item description...that leaves tesco as the only ones stuck with their heads in the sand like ostriches....denying that saorview even exists..
    is it accurate and does it agree with argos.ie website?


  • #133
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    axer wrote: »
    Is there a remedy for a refund or exchange for the consumer in this act?

    Different act, now tell us how tesco is complying with the law like I told you to.


  • #134
    channelsurfer2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    watty wrote: »
    is it accurate and does it agree with argos.ie website?

    its more accurate than the argos website...and seems to be spot on at least on the few models i looked at.. the website just seems to have the generic digital not available and freeview quotation.


  • #135
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    70% of homes have cable or satellite

    UPC are going digital, so soon people will find that they can't use the built in tuner on any TV's not connected directly to the decoder box anymore. At present you can watch Basic TV in all rooms without having to pay extra. But people know that if the worst came to the worst they would still get the Irish channels with an aerial, what they know is wrong.

    If as a lot of people are, cutting back on SKY or UPC and going FTA + Terresterial this is a big issue.

    To expect a device described as a TV to receive terresterial broadcasts during the warranted life time of the product is fair and resonable exepectation.

    625 Line PAL has been the standard here since 1962, , and there are still people out there who don't know that it will soon be gone forever .


    Do any TV shops still do the 3 years interest free credit thing - that would be interesting !


    The 405 to 625 line changeover took 20 years between 1962 and 1982. Again people without the full facts might reasonably expect a similar time transition.


  • #136
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    channelsurfer2 wrote: »
    its more accurate than the argos website...and seems to be spot on at least on the few models i looked at.. the website just seems to have the generic digital not available and freeview quotation.

    Good.

    Some possibly incompatible Tvs on web site don't have disclaimer.


  • #137
    HappyHarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 350 ✭✭HappyHarry


    Axer,

    I see you are still banging on the same drum but avoiding the awkward questions.

    You try to cling onto legal technicalities and request proof in law, but where is your legal proof? (rhetorical question)
    Your claim that as long as something worked as advertised on at the time of purchase and it doesn't matter what happens after that is absurd. As previously stated, the duration can vary depending on the reasonable exceptions of the buyer taking into account the price and nature of the goods. The EU directive does mention 2 years for electronic goods if I recall correctly, but that is beside the point.

    People are not wrong to quote the SoG act or EU Directive if they feel it applies to their situation. It is up to the retailer to counter with why they feel it doesn't apply if it doesn't. If either party isn't happy then they can take it to someone else to adjudicate, that's the way the system works.

    As previously stated, ultimately the judgement will be passed in the small claims or other court if it gets that far, not by Axer or HappyHarry on this forum.

    Why don't you want people to fight for their rights against un-scrupulous retailers? If you only post one more reply to this thread please answer that.

    How about answering the questions in my post - #88
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70190438&postcount=88


  • #138
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Different act, now tell us how tesco is complying with the law like I told you to.
    Not sure what you are trying to imply. If you read back the thread you will see that I brought up the consumer protection act first many posts ago and suggested that it might come in under that. My issue is really regarding people's rights to refunds which the likes of watty said was clear in law when it is far from clear. Claims such as that should be backed up with clear evidence in law etc or should not be made at all as it will confuse the regular consumer making them think they have legal rights that they do not have.


  • #139
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    HappyHarry wrote: »
    You try to cling onto legal technicalities and request proof in law, but where is your legal proof?
    I am not the one making claims that it is clear in law.


  • #140
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hmmmm...
    It seems quite [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/may/23/tesco-consumer-guarantee[/url] obvious [/url] to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.


  • #141
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hmmmm...
    It seems quite obvious to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.
    TV's that cannot pick up saorview using an in built tuner are not broken since they were never made to pick up those signals via the inbuilt tuner so those examples are apples and oranges.


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  • #142
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    axer wrote: »
    TV's that cannot pick up saorview using an in built tuner are not broken since they were never made to pick up those signals via the inbuilt tuner so those examples are apples and oranges.
    Thats simply rubbish.
    It's tuner either receives tv for more than 2 years or it doesn't.
    If it doesn't the tuner isn't working.


  • #143
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thats simply rubbish.
    It's tuner either receives tv for more than 2 years or it doesn't.
    If it doesn't the tuner isn't working.
    just because there is no signal doesnt mean the tuner is faulty/not working.


  • #144
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    axer wrote: »
    just because there is no signal doesnt mean the tuner is faulty/not working.
    More nonsense from you.
    A tuner that receives no signal is a tuner that has stopped working.

    Do you think retailers here would get away with selling secam sets?
    405 line sets?
    Ntsc only sets?
    You are just trolling.
    Anyone can see that.

    Post more codswallop in reply to this if you wish,thats your prerogative.


  • #145
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    More nonsense from you.
    A tuner that receives no signal is a tuner that has stopped working.

    Do you think retailers here would get away with selling secam sets?
    405 line sets?
    Ntsc only sets?
    You are just trolling.
    Anyone can see that.

    Post more codswallop in reply to this if you wish,thats your prerogative.
    So if I bring a tv out to the middle of the atlantic ocean where there is no tv signal - that means the tv tuner has stopped working?

    Or a tv in parts of Ireland where one cannot pick up RTE etc is not working? Or is it that there is just no signal to be picked up, the tv will display what it receives so it is working fine.


  • #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    axer wrote: »
    So if I bring a tv out to the middle of the atlantic ocean where there is no tv signal - that means the tv tuner has stopped working?
    Correct.
    However you'd have no chance going to the small claims court with that line as any reasonable judge couldn't be persuaded that you actually expected to receive anything on it's tuner out there.
    Here in Ireland,I can make a case that I was.

    Any more codswallop for me?

    oh I see you do... in your edit..
    axer wrote: »
    Or a tv in parts of Ireland where one cannot pick up RTE etc is not working? Or is it that there is just no signal to be picked up, the tv will display what it receives so it is working fine.
    Again,in that case the retailer would have a case.You wouldn't.
    Very tiny amount of people in that batch though caller.


  • #147
    axer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Any more codswallop for me?
    No need for that kind of attack. No point debating with people who attack like this.


  • #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    You are in the opinion of anyone that I've seen on this thread and the other one posting an amount of codswallop.
    I'm calling you on it.
    I'm allowed refer to the posts as codswallop and have said why I believe this.


  • #149
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    page 374 of Spring/Summer 2011 Argos Catalogue

    Out now in all their stores.


  • #150
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 848 ✭✭✭marclt


    I don't think this conversation is going very far here lads.

    So unless you have something new to contribute, stop take a breath and instead of submit, hit delete.

    These stores aren't proclaiming that these products will be saorview compatible.

    This is similar to the situation when Argos opened here first with their UHF only TV sets, and then they limited their selection to ones that did UHF/VHF.

    I think the new range of Bush at Argos (the ones they've marked as FULL HD) should be Saorview compliant... It's hard to tell.

    Consumers need to be protected, but part of that should lie with the broadcasters coming together to ensure proper information is doing the rounds. That point, we've debated also.

    But all this is off topic.


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  • #151
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hmmmm...
    It seems quite [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/may/23/tesco-consumer-guarantee[/url] obvious [/url] to me that if I buy a tv now and it suddenly stops receiving channels from my aerial on jan 1 2013,then I am entitled to a new one.

    Only if the shop didn't label it properly.

    If the Shop labels it as Incompatible with Irish Digital TV and will stop getting an Aerial signal after 2012 they may be in the clear, just!

    So Tesco currently got a problem, but Argos at page 320 start of Guide to Televisions have
    Digital switchover
    The Digital switchover is coming to Ireland see page 373
    Actually page 373 is an Advert, but page 374 has:
    When is this happening
    At the moment there is no confirmed date for the old analogue signal to be switched off. All we know is that it will definitely happen before the end of 2012,
    so it is worth considering your options and preparing for the digital signal during 2011
    I think this is a bit weaselish. But it's clearly in the catalogue. Also EVERY TV in catalogue appears to have:
    Irish digital compatible
    or
    Will not work with Irish Digital signals
    you will require a digital set top box or
    satellite source.

    No confusing nonsense purely about Freeview as Tesco have!


This discussion has been closed.
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