Goldfish controversy

Whispered · 16-02-2011 4:07pm #1

I just read this article online and wanted to get your thoughts. Is there any way fish can be thought tricks such as formation swimming? They are so often discounted as mindless pets, is it possible? Or would also be of the opinion the is somehow harming the fish by using magnets, electrical currents etc.

And if he is, is there more harm in this than in other performing animal training methods?

Chinese animal rights groups are urging TV stations not to show a magic trick of goldfish swimming in formation.
They believe the performance could involve the use of magnets and therefore harm the fish.
Campaigners want the act dropped from variety shows to be broadcast on Thursday to mark the end of the Chinese New Year holiday.
The magician at the centre of the controversy, Fu Yandong, denies he harms the fish.
The trick has amazed audiences across China, appearing on one of the biggest shows of the year, China Central Television's New Year's Eve special.
Magician's code
Mr Fu takes six goldfish and releases them into a shallow tank. He somehow gets them to swim together.
But instead of being praised, he has been criticised by more than 50 animal rights groups.
Liu Huili, of Da'erwen campaign group, said: "Goldfish are small creatures that anyone can easily buy and abuse, or even kill."
She wants TV stations to drop the act from variety shows planned to mark the end of the Lunar New Year.
Some stations, including the state broadcaster CCTV, are reported to have agreed to ditch the controversial segment. Others plan to show it regardless.
Meanwhile, Mr Fu has hit back at the criticism.
"If I used magnets, the fish would stick together," he told a CCTV news programme.
"Some people say I use electricity or high technology. They can say what they want, but the fish are safe," he added.
The magician has declined to say exactly how the trick is performed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12478611

SugarHigh · 16-02-2011 4:15pm

Even if it is a magnet trick I don't see the big deal. Is there any reason to think the fish are distressed or even aware of whats happening?

Silverfish · 16-02-2011 10:25pm

I don't know, I've seen goldfish 'learn' behaviour, they do learn and remember certain things.

For example, one of mine recognises his food container and the cup his food comes in.

One day I got a phone call and put the cup on top of the tank, and got this frantic flailing underneath the cup:

until the call ended 10 mins later.

So while that was months and months of associative behaviour -( cup + person = peas soon) I can imagine it might be possible, maybe, after a few years, to teach a fish to do something.

But swimming in formation (if this is the guy I've seen on youtube a few times) I just can't see how it's possible.
But if he somehow did, I can't see how the fish would be distressed by it.

Cherry Blossom · 16-02-2011 10:42pm

When I had fish I taught my zebra danios to beg for bloodworms, they had to swim into my cupped hand first, then the bloodworms would be dropped in

Well I didn't really mean to teach them exactly but they did it anway

It just started with feeding the bloodworms from my hand cause they wanted them more than they were afraid of my hand and after I while they'd come as soon as the source of the bloodworms appeared.

Actually this is a bit of a pathetic claim to teaching fish tricks :rolleyes:

Cherry Blossom · 16-02-2011 10:45pm

SugarHigh wrote: »

Even if it is a magnet trick I don't see the big deal.

If it's a magnet trick it means the fish have some sort of metal embeded in them.

Discodog · 17-02-2011 12:24am

From the Guardian

Finally, on condition of strict anonymity, one expert agrees to explain it."Normally," he says, "if it's two fish doing the swimming thing it's actually just a mirror in the water." With six, however, there can be only one explanation: the campaigners are right. "It's magnets. What they've done is probably coated their food in iron filings and it's either a machine or a guy under the table holding magnets. The giveaway is how shallow the water is. If the tank was full all the way to the top, the magnet wouldn't be strong enough. As cruel as it sounds, he's literally just dragging them around."

Cyprinids are pretty intelligent for fish however they are not that clever. The food response applies to most captive fish. The most intelligent freshwater fish are probably the Elephant Fish. I have kept these & they are certainly brighter than your average fish.

ToniTuddle · 17-02-2011 5:52am

Was watching that show about Outrageous Pets few weeks ago had a skiing squirrel on it and such things! But there was a man who had taught his goldfish some tricks.

One was bringing a tiny hoop that owner had dropped into the water back up to the surface.
The other was a cute wee agility test like making the fish swim in through wee mini poles, like how you would see a dog darting in and around the poles.

The Sweeper · 17-02-2011 6:48am

Millions of years of evolution are based around the idea that all living things can learn 'If I do X behaviour, postive thing Y happens to me.' So if I go here, I get to eat this. If I do this, I get to eat that.

Subsequently it stands to reason that the most persistent of us can train the most resistant of us to do 'tricks' to varying degrees of complexity with a positive reward. The level of complexity will depend on the cognitive ability of the trainee to string together concepts.

Every animal can be taught that a single action will result in a food reward. Fewer animals can be taught to complete a string of consecutive actions that result in a food reward.

Iron filings + goldfish + magnets = tasteless exploitation of power over a defenceless animal for entertainment.

seamus · 17-02-2011 10:30am

When they were talking about using magnets, I assumed that they meant he was using a magnet to direct the fish through Magnetoception. I don't know if Goldfish have that.

But iron filings in the food is just horrific.

Silverfish · 18-02-2011 7:41pm

After some extensive* research:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0cAMAy-WL4

This is the video of the formation fish.

Going from my experience of fancy goldfish, they're not shaped for sleek swimming, they use their fins a LOT to get about.
These fish are gliding nicely through the water. So I would think that these fish are being controlled by magnets under the table.
At one point, one of the black fish 'flips'... in a way that a magnet will repel when it gets too close to another magnet.

On the (minor) plus side.... the fish are already dead.

*may not be extensive.

Discodog · 18-02-2011 8:05pm

One might expect a Silverfish to be an expert on Goldfish

Zapperzy · 18-02-2011 10:14pm

Silverfish wrote: »

After some extensive* research:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0cAMAy-WL4

This is the video of the formation fish.

Going from my experience of fancy goldfish, they're not shaped for sleek swimming, they use their fins a LOT to get about.
These fish are gliding nicely through the water. So I would think that these fish are being controlled by magnets under the table.
At one point, one of the black fish 'flips'... in a way that a magnet will repel when it gets too close to another magnet.

On the (minor) plus side.... the fish are already dead.

*may not be extensive.

Where'd u read that? It does look like magnets alright.

Silverfish · 18-02-2011 10:49pm

Well, if goldfish eat iron filings, they'll be dead very quickly.

And looking at those fish, their fins aren't moving, dorsal fins down.... they don't move like fish normally move. So either dead or soon to be dead.

Zapperzy · 18-02-2011 11:45pm

Silverfish wrote: »

Well, if goldfish eat iron filings, they'll be dead very quickly.

And looking at those fish, their fins aren't moving, dorsal fins down.... they don't move like fish normally move. So either dead or soon to be dead.

Ah right, guess my brains a bit slow today, thought you had some other information that confirmed the fish had later died.
It's been years since Iv had fish but I thought they moved pretty funny myself, when first put in most of them just stayed in the one spot instead of swimming around and when they did move it looked as though they were being dragged through the water as opposed to actually swimming through it. And when the camera zoomed into the bowl he was carrying none of the fish in the bowl were moving at all, even when one of their fins were out of the water they didn't even flinch.

So I agree with you I think they were dead to begin with.

So either they had iron inserted after they died or their food was coated with iron fillings. Either way using dead animals in an entertainment act is pretty low and sick. Wonder how he did the 2nd thing with the painting?

dan_d · 18-02-2011 11:59pm

That's...horrible.

Silverfish · 19-02-2011 5:50pm

Zapperzy wrote: »

Ah right, guess my brains a bit slow today, thought you had some other information that confirmed the fish had later died.
It's been years since Iv had fish but I thought they moved pretty funny myself, when first put in most of them just stayed in the one spot instead of swimming around and when they did move it looked as though they were being dragged through the water as opposed to actually swimming through it. And when the camera zoomed into the bowl he was carrying none of the fish in the bowl were moving at all, even when one of their fins were out of the water they didn't even flinch.

So I agree with you I think they were dead to begin with. So either they had iron inserted after they died or their food was coated with iron fillings. Either way using dead animals in an entertainment act is pretty low and sick. Wonder how he did the 2nd thing with the painting?

No it was me, I didn't actually explain in my post why I think they're already dead, but it's exactly as you say - just not moving naturally.

The painting one looks like a sticker / sleeve trick. Or even in the video you can see the painting move a bit at the top, like there's a sheet of plastic over it, so perhaps when he 'removes' the image of the fish putting his hands over it, he could pull a fish out from behind it. Or something.

seamus · 21-02-2011 5:36pm

Silverfish wrote: »

No it was me, I didn't actually explain in my post why I think they're already dead, but it's exactly as you say - just not moving naturally.

At 3:04, one of the goldfish "swims" backwards. Just not natural movement at all. Fairly sick

Stressica · 22-02-2011 9:20pm

sick, sick, sick how do people get away with these things?? :mad::eek:

Goldfish controversy

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