Electic window fault.

jacothelad · 03-02-2014 9:16pm #1

Fiat Ducato 2.8 JTD 2003. The passenger electric window has stopped working (on both switches, passenger and driver side). There is an audible click when you engage a switch so something is happening. Any suggestions before I take it to a dealership.

Aidan_M_M · 03-02-2014 11:44pm

I suggest a decent indie mechanic! Sounds like either the window is stuck on the rubber , or the window regulator is dodgy . Possibly the controller behind the dash , I've replaced a few /

jacothelad · 04-02-2014 12:04am

Aidan_M_M wrote: »

I suggest a decent indie mechanic! Sounds like either the window is stuck on the rubber , or the window regulator is dodgy . Possibly the controller behind the dash , I've replaced a few /

Thanks Aidan. The window was working fine when I parked it up for the winter. Should I try and see if it is stuck on the rubber - i.e. push it down while operating the switch? Spray a bit of rubber lube around the window rubber?

Pardon my lack of knowledge but what's an 'indie' mechanic? Is it an independent guy? I use a local guy who appears very good for the cars. Whereabouts behind the dash is the controller located and where might I source a replacement if needed? I live near Carrickfergus in Co. Antrim. I'm a real motorhome novice having bought it last June but have used it only once so far.

moodrater · 04-02-2014 2:25am

Always spray the window rubbers and channel to reduce friction it takes the strain off the cables, pulleys, gears and motor. The ducato winder mechanism uses a plastic gear with shallow teeth its pretty easy to strip if you have a repeated clicking accompanied by motor sound its kaputt. Generally when they're stuck you can open the door and catch the glass between your hands and pull it down while someone else presses the button. A suction cup if you have one is easier. Before trying that do your best to lubricate the rubber and channel and free it from the glass. Slide something like the end of a cable tie/tesco card etc between the glass and the rubber to ensure its free

jacothelad · 04-02-2014 11:00am

moodrater wrote: »

Always spray the window rubbers and channel to reduce friction it takes the strain off the cables, pulleys, gears and motor. The ducato winder mechanism uses a plastic gear with shallow teeth its pretty easy to strip if you have a repeated clicking accompanied by motor sound its kaputt. Generally when they're stuck you can open the door and catch the glass between your hands and pull it down while someone else presses the button. A suction cup if you have one is easier. Before trying that do your best to lubricate the rubber and channel and free it from the glass. Slide something like the end of a cable tie/tesco card etc between the glass and the rubber to ensure its free

Thanks, I'll try all that.

04-02-2014 12:03pm

moodrater wrote: »

...do your best to lubricate the rubber and channel and free it from the glass.

Sounds like a job for Silicone Paste; makes window glass run like bejaysus once it seats in. Apply it in the vertical rubber channels. Won't harm the rubber...most oil based lubricants or grease will.

Hard to find it over here. Available to buy off the shelf in French supermarkets.

jacothelad · 04-02-2014 1:29pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Sounds like a job for Silicone Paste; makes window glass run like bejaysus once it seats in. Apply it in the vertical rubber channels. Won't harm the rubber...most oil based lubricants or grease will.

Hard to find it over here. Available to buy off the shelf in French supermarkets.

I've just sprayed silicone rubber lube into the channels and gone round with a thin credit card. I then tried to pull the glass down with a dent puller while using the switch but alas, to no avail. There is a clearly audible click from under the dash behind a small access panel but no other sound - which I hope is a good thing, i.e. no whirring of worn out teeth.
As there isn't anything else I can really do personally I'll get a mechanic to look at it. When I bought the vehicle, it didn't work but then it started and worked perfectly until I put it away for the winter.

What are the likely parts I'll need to get if something has failed? I assume sourcing bits from the net is a lot more economical than using Donnelly's in Belfast. They charged the guy I bought it from, £500 to replace the timing belt on it before he sold it to me. They didn't do it correctly and a leaky oil seal spewed oil all over the new belt so I had it redone. I'm sure engine oil and timing belts aren't supposed to meet. I was replacing a rusty sump any way so it didn't cost that much more. Was I right or did I not need to do so? Any advice on the window will be gratefully received.

moodrater · 04-02-2014 10:32pm

jacothelad wrote: »

I've just sprayed silicone rubber lube into the channels and gone round with a thin credit card. I then tried to pull the glass down with a dent puller while using the switch but alas, to no avail. There is a clearly audible click from under the dash behind a small access panel but no other sound - which I hope is a good thing, i.e. no whirring of worn out teeth.
As there isn't anything else I can really do personally I'll get a mechanic to look at it. When I bought the vehicle, it didn't work but then it started and worked perfectly until I put it away for the winter.

What are the likely parts I'll need to get if something has failed? I assume sourcing bits from the net is a lot more economical than using Donnelly's in Belfast. They charged the guy I bought it from, £500 to replace the timing belt on it before he sold it to me. They didn't do it correctly and a leaky oil seal spewed oil all over the new belt so I had it redone. I'm sure engine oil and timing belts aren't supposed to meet. I was replacing a rusty sump any way so it didn't cost that much more. Was I right or did I not need to do so? Any advice on the window will be gratefully received.

Check the wiring to the door where it flexes in the rubber bellows. Copper suffers from work hardening and gets brittle with age and flexing so often the wires crack where they're flexed in the door. If you have a multimeter I can dig out the wiring diagram to check that the voltage is getting to the door. Theres also a ton of intermediary connectors over the left strut you may have something lose in these if your struts have been worked on.

jacothelad · 05-02-2014 12:22am

moodrater wrote: »

Check the wiring to the door where it flexes in the rubber bellows. Copper suffers from work hardening and gets brittle with age and flexing so often the wires crack where they're flexed in the door. If you have a multimeter I can dig out the wiring diagram to check that the voltage is getting to the door. Theres also a ton of intermediary connectors over the left strut you may have something lose in these if your struts have been worked on.

Thanks for the help. I do have a multi metre. I'll check the wiring entry to the door in case it is damaged. I don't think the struts have been worked on as the m.h. is very low mileage which seems to be genuine. I have all the documentation of it from new. I'll have a ggod hunt around it though just in case. The wiring diagram would be immensely helpful and even if it's too much for me to make sense of the mechanic I know could use it.
Thanks.
Jaco.

moodrater · 06-02-2014 12:06pm

Attached large diagram and seperate pdf with an description of what the parts are. colour codes are italian so B is White Blanco.

A - light blue
B - white
C - orange
G - yellow
H - grey
L - blue
M - brown
N - black
R - red
S - pink
V - green
Z - violet

The M135 unit is well inside the dash you have to remove glovebox, remove lower dash and if its a lhd remove the central fascia. Since you're hearing a click thats probably the relay in the m135 unit and the problem is most lightly the white/red and violet/yellow wires to the door. If you trace those all the way back to the m135 unit and still have no power on those wires then pop open the m135 unit. The relays are easy to check as they're open frame make sure the contacts are closing when you use the door switch and look for evidence of arcing or corrosion on the contacts and check the board for dry solder joints. Once the relay is operating at all it will be a simple fix as the complicated bit is working.
http://www.moskopp.com/download/tutorials-howtos?download=10:einbau-einer-inca-pro-ffb-in-fiat-ducato

06-02-2014 1:08pm

jacothelad wrote: »

There is an audible click when you engage a switch so something is happening.

That's probably the relay. Are you getting 12v at the motor with the switch and relay active? If not it's wiring between the relay and the motor. If you are it's likely motor or mechanical.

Silicone paste lasts longer and works better than the spray..like the difference between WD40 and grease.
My manual window ceased long time ago. It was a rusted bulging seam that was trapping the glass, needed cutting out.

jacothelad · 07-02-2014 6:38pm

moodrater wrote: »

Attached large diagram and seperate pdf with an description of what the parts are. colour codes are italian so B is White Blanco.

A - light blue
B - white
C - orange
G - yellow
H - grey
L - blue
M - brown
N - black
R - red
S - pink
V - green
Z - violet

The M135 unit is well inside the dash you have to remove glovebox, remove lower dash and if its a lhd remove the central fascia. Since you're hearing a click thats probably the relay in the m135 unit and the problem is most lightly the white/red and violet/yellow wires to the door. If you trace those all the way back to the m135 unit and still have no power on those wires then pop open the m135 unit. The relays are easy to check as they're open frame make sure the contacts are closing when you use the door switch and look for evidence of arcing or corrosion on the contacts and check the board for dry solder joints. Once the relay is operating at all it will be a simple fix as the complicated bit is working.
http://www.moskopp.com/download/tutorials-howtos?download=10:einbau-einer-inca-pro-ffb-in-fiat-ducato

Thanks. Really good info but way above my head. I'll show it to the mechanic.

jacothelad · 07-02-2014 6:40pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

That's probably the relay. Are you getting 12v at the motor with the switch and relay active? If not it's wiring between the relay and the motor. If you are it's likely motor or mechanical.

Silicone paste lasts longer and works better than the spray..like the difference between WD40 and grease.
My manual window ceased long time ago. It was a rusted bulging seam that was trapping the glass, needed cutting out.

Terra incognito for me I'm afraid. I'm out of my depth with this stuff. Better for me to leave it to an expert.

I'll get hold of the paste. It seems like a good idea for my Skoda Superb also.

Aidan_M_M · 08-02-2014 2:59am

I've never seen broken wires on one of those , only ever a switch , window reg or the control unit.

jacothelad · 11-02-2014 9:55am

I'm taking it to the mechanic this morning so ..fingers crossed. I've got the wiring diagram and all the info you guys have given me.
Thanks
Jacko

jacothelad · 11-02-2014 1:17pm

It looks like it's the control unit.....grrrr.
Also asked him to check the brakes while I was thereas it's been sitting mostly for 3 months. It looks like I need new discs and pads on the rear wheels. Always worth doing it right i think. The discs are still really thick but look very rough indeed. It never rains etc. I'm off to the Scottish Highlands in two weeks so I'll be happy to have all this under my belt.

moodrater · 11-02-2014 2:00pm

jacothelad wrote: »

It looks like it's the control unit.....grrrr.
Also asked him to check the brakes while I was thereas it's been sitting mostly for 3 months. It looks like I need new discs and pads on the rear wheels. Always worth doing it right i think. The discs are still really thick but look very rough indeed. It never rains etc. I'm off to the Scottish Highlands in two weeks so I'll be happy to have all this under my belt.

You could get the discs lapped but probably cheaper to replace, like I said if you can hear the relay clicking in the control unit then it should be a simple matter of changing the relay or soldering a dry joint in the unit. If the relays not clicking it would be a multitude of things.

jacothelad · 11-02-2014 2:33pm

moodrater wrote: »

You could get the discs lapped but probably cheaper to replace, like I said if you can hear the relay clicking in the control unit then it should be a simple matter of changing the relay or soldering a dry joint in the unit. If the relays not clicking it would be a multitude of things.

The mechanic says it is the relay that is clicking. Looks like he'll have to strip out the dash...... C'est la Vie. Seems like a bad design to have something like that buried in the dash but then it is a Fiat.:D

moodrater · 11-02-2014 3:19pm

jacothelad wrote: »

The mechanic says it is the relay that is clicking. Looks like he'll have to strip out the dash...... C'est la Vie. Seems like a bad design to have something like that buried in the dash but then it is a Fiat.:D

Well its got to go somewhere, theres only about 5 screws to take off the lower dash I reckon, dead simple compared to most cars.

12-02-2014 2:14pm

Try replacing a HVAC blower motor then you'll know all about stripping out the dash.

moodrater · 12-02-2014 3:22pm

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Try replacing a HVAC blower motor then you'll know all about stripping out the dash.

Or heater matrixes in some cars, don't think you can ever the the squeaks out of the dash after.

12-02-2014 11:39pm

In exceptional cases you'll find some twat has already tried by filling every seam with glue. :mad:

jacothelad · 15-02-2014 10:54pm

It turned out to be a broken wire near the unit. All working. Thanks for all the help lads. I did discover I needed new rear discs and pads so the broken wire actually did me a service by warning me earlier than I would have found the problem.

15-02-2014 11:13pm

That's the usually all it is, or a fuse (sometimes not the one you'd expect). I'd say 9 times out of 10 if I had any scientific data to back that up but I don't so...:pac:

Malta1 · 17-02-2014 10:27am

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I'd say 9 times out of 10 if I had any scientific data to back that up

Did you know that 86.9% of statistics are made up on the spot

17-02-2014 4:36pm

I never understand why people use a mathematical convention for estimates; using phrases like 99% of the time when actually the majority of the time would be a more accurate description. I know....pedant.....yeah, whatever...

rjy395 · 13-07-2014 11:29am

Ok followed advice above. re. electric window fault on 2004 fiat ducato. Problem seems to be the M135 window and central locking control unit. Having opened that up, the electric relays for one window although they click do not create power to the window regulator. From what I can see only one power supply in to the M135 unit (brown wire) for the windows. Any advice would be gratefully received.....wondering whether although the relays click, they could still be faulty. Should say the relays for the other window work fine?

14-07-2014 10:26pm

The only scenario I can think of that a relay would click and not work is if the contacts are heavily carbonised from arcing. I'm dubious a window regulator would arc under normal operation. More likely it's a break in the wiring between the regulator and the 87 terminal, bad regulator (worn brushes possibly) or a stuck window pane.

I don't know the wiring specifics but if you have 12v at the 87 terminal of the relay with the switch on and at the regulator, then I'd swap the regulator for the passenger side to test by elimination. If the regulator's working try lubricating the vertical run channels with silicon paste.

You can open up the relay and look for soot, clean it if needs be. They're simple creatures, soon as you see the gubbins you'll understand what's going on. It's just a coil generating a magnetic field when energised and pulling a ferrous switch into contact with the output terminal. Sometimes the casing is potted, you can still break into them though, they won't be fully potted else they wouldn't work.

{Edit} Come to think of it the other possibility where a relay would click and not work is if the braided cable that links the 30 terminal to the ferrous switch was broken or disconnected. According to manufacturers relays are good for 100 000 operations so they're fairly reliable although I think that figure is a mite inflated.

Electic window fault.

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