Any update with proposed changes in legislation - paretns & children?

Plek Trum · 29-04-2014 11:23am #1

Hi guys,
just wondering if anyone here knows if the proposed legislation changes for the children of same sex parents is actually going to come in by the end of this year?

There was talk it would be implemented by end of 2014 - both parents would be recognised legally, but after all the debacle with Shatter recently, I wonder if it has been pushed down the priority list?

Link here from Examiner in January of this year http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/equal-parent-rights-for-gay-couples-256111.html

Is there any 'official' route to find out of this will be passed? Many thanks !

NuMarvel · 30-04-2014 8:33am

The Justice Committee started pre-legislative scrutiny of the proposed Bill on 9th April and heard from a number of interested parties and bodies. There's a press release on the Oireachtas website here. And there's a transcript of the Committe meeting here.

It's a complex piece of legislation, covering a wide range of child & family issues, and the General Scheme of the Bill running to 150 pages, so it will take some time to pass through the Dáil and the Seanad. There are also some Supreme Court appeals that may affect the content of the legislation; one on surrogacy, and one on the results of the Children's Referendum (which provides the Constitutional grounds to make some of these changes).

There is a commitment in Government to get this passed before any referendum on marriage. They don't want issues around children bogging down any referendum campaign, so I think they'll finalise this first before setting any referendum date. What I can't say for certain is if that will be by the end of the year. Shatter initially hoped it would be enacted before 2013, but obviously that's been and gone, so it's possible it'll be into next year before it's enacted. The sooner they pass the legislation, the better, but at the same time, I don't want them to rush something as important as this. It affects the lives of tens of thousands of children (and not just those raised by gay people), so it's better to get it right the first time, even if that takes longer than we'd like.

Plek Trum · 30-04-2014 9:06am

Huge thanks NuMarvel - that's exactly the precise answer I was looking for. Really appreciate you taking the time to post.

My partner and I are together 12 years, own our house but have decided to wait until the Marriage Equality bill has been passed before tying the knot (fingers crossed) . In the meantime, we are expecting our first baby this December and wanted to know how close these changes were in order to have as much security as possible for our family unit in the interim. Will be talking to our solicitor too, its great to be clear on the above before our appointment. Many thanks, appreciate it.

NuMarvel · 30-04-2014 9:20am

You're welcome and congrats on the upcoming addition!

If haven't seen it already, the Dept of Justice published the General Scheme of the Bill on their website in January. The General Scheme is like a plain English version of how the Bill will be first presented, so that everyone has an idea of the scope of the bill. It's possible things will change before the formal Bill goes to the Dáil and before it's finally enacted, but it gives you a good starting point. There's also a summary from November 2013 here.

Don't be too daunted by the size of the General Scheme. It has to cover an array of family types, so only some parts will be relevant to you. If nothing else, it'll give your solicitor some guidance on how things are expected to proceed int eh area of family law.

Plek Trum · 19-05-2014 12:48pm

Hello again Numarvel - just wondering if Shatters exit from office will have any effect on the progression of this bill or will it be kept moving as a proposed priority? I'm presuming that Frances Fitzgerald inherits an existing portfolio and will be obliged to continue to push this through (that may be slightly naieve however!) Thanks

NuMarvel · 21-05-2014 1:58pm

Shatter's exit might delay this a bit, but I think that would be because of the Garda controversies that have to be dealt with rather than any disinterest on Fitzgerald's behalf. Fitzgerald is seen as being from the more liberal side of FG, and she's previously expressed support for legislation to formalise the relationships of children being raised by gay and lesbian parents.

As well as that Labour are keen to have it finalised before the marriage referendum next year (if for no other reason than they have some kind of win to show to their supporters).

That's my feeling on it anyway. I'm no more clued in than anyone else, so I could be hopelessly wrong, but that this has cross party support means it should be a case of when, not it.

If you're keen to keep the pressure on, I'd suggest contacting your local TDs about it. Get them to ask when the Bill will be put to the Dáil and ask them how long they think it will take to go through all the various stages. You don't need to go into your personal circumstances if you don't want to, you can just say you're keen to see the bill passed as soon as possible.

NuMarvel · 10-07-2014 1:51pm

A few updates on this legislation and related matters from the last few weeks for anyone interested:

Firstly, the Supreme Court has advised that their decision on the surrogacy case is due in October. This means it's unlikely the Bill will be debated in any great detail before then, and it certainly won't be passed before then. And if the Supreme Court rules against the State, the Government will have to amend the Bill to reflect the court ruling.

Secondly, the woman challenging the results of the Children's referendum has lost both her High Court cases, but she has appealed both rulings to the Supreme Court. This means that the Constitutional hasn't been changed yet to reflect the result of the Children's Referendum. The Constitution can't be changed until the Supreme Court has ruled, and this legislation can't be passed until the Constitution is changed. Dates haven't been fixed yet for the Supreme Court challenges.

And finally, the Justice Committee issued a report today on the meetings it held a few months ago about the proposed legislation. The full report is here, but in summary, their recommendations were:

Definition: The definition of surrogacy in the Bill should be expanded to include ‘traditional surrogacy’

• Posthumous Conception: The Bill should include a provision allowing and regulating limited posthumous conception

• Assignment of Parentage in Surrogacy cases: These provisions, particularly the current time limits, require reviewing to ensure that there is no doubt regarding the child’s parentage after delivery.

• Child’s right to Identity: It should be considered whether the Bill could be amended to include some provision, for example in Head 10, concerning the right of a child to access information concerning their genetic identity.

• Guardians acting jointly on medical consent: Head 36 requires reviewing to ensure greater clarity, and to ensure further that there is no conflict with existing law concerning the age at which persons may consent to medical treatment.

• Changes to Guardianship: The requirement that unmarried cohabitant fathers must show that they have been cohabiting with the child’s mother for at least 12 months prior to the child’s birth should be reviewed, as some commentators expressed the view that it was too long a period.

A central register should be established in which statutory declarations of guardianship could be retained.

The language of ‘guardianship’, ‘custody’ and ‘access’ should be replaced with more appropriate and contemporary terms such as ‘parental responsibility’, ‘day-to-day care’ and ‘contact.’

• Parentage: Greater clarity is needed in the terms of Heads 8 and 10 in this respect.

Adoption by civil partners and parentage recognised abroad: The Bill should ensure adequate recognition of foreign adoption orders and marriage/civil partnerships celebrated abroad.

Views of the Child: Greater clarity is needed on how the provisions of Head 32 concerning the right of the child to be heard should be implemented in practice without imposing undue burden on the child.

• Procedures: The rules on section 47 reports outlined in Head 58 of the Bill should be strengthened, with provision for the funding of the Guardian Ad Litem, and recognition of child contact centres.

Vojera · 10-07-2014 2:58pm

Would the aspect on children having a right to know their genetic heritage have any bearing on previous adoptions or would it only be forward-looking? I've a few friends looking for their birth parents so I'd love if it would help them out.

I imagine this passing will also have an effect on the campaigns for marriage equality. The anti side won't be able to have a "think of the children" line anymore, will they?

NuMarvel · 11-07-2014 1:25pm

Vojera wrote: »

Would the aspect on children having a right to know their genetic heritage have any bearing on previous adoptions or would it only be forward-looking? I've a few friends looking for their birth parents so I'd love if it would help them out.

I don't know enough myself to be able to give an answer. I know that Kenny has said that a referendum would have to be held to allow adopted children to learn who their birth parents were, but some people don't think that holds up to scrutiny. And it seems the Justice Committee think that legislation is sufficient for children born through assisted reproduction.

It will be great if this legislation can help your friends. But if legislation is all that's needed, then the Government could introduce a new bill on the matter now. People like your friends shouldn't be left waiting on the passing of a bill that's already complex enough.

Vojera wrote: »

I imagine this passing will also have an effect on the campaigns for marriage equality. The anti side won't be able to have a "think of the children" line anymore, will they?

There won't be any merit to that argument (not that there isn't much now anyway), but they'll use it none the less. It's still trundled out in the US despite the increasing number of states that allow marriage.

They may also capitalise on any delays in passing the legislation. There'll be, at the very most, an 8 month gap between passing the legislation and holding the referendum. The shorter that gets, the more they'll talk about how the legislation is being rushed through and how it should wait until after the referendum. They'll try and frame the marriage referendum as a referendum on the legislation as well.

NuMarvel · 25-09-2014 6:27pm

The updated General Scheme was published by the Dept of Justice today.

The biggest change was the removal of provisions for surrogacy. The Minister removed this because of the pending Supreme Court decision, and also cited the need for more policy work and consultation on some areas, including the rights of children born through surrogacy.

From the press release, the other main changes were:
· Provisions are included enabling a donor-conceived child, born through assisted reproduction, to trace his/her identity. A mandatory national donor-conceived person register will be established. Hospitals and clinics will be required to provide details of donors and of donor-conceived children born through assisted reproduction. Anonymous donations will be prohibited.
· Eligibility to adopt jointly has been extended to cohabiting couples, living together in an intimate and committed relationship for over 3 years. The proposals are retained to allow civil partners to be eligible jointly to adopt a child.
· It will be easier for an unmarried father to become a guardian automatically. The previous proposal required him to cohabit with the child’s mother for 12 months prior to the child’s birth. The new requirement enables an unmarried father to become a guardian automatically once he cohabits with the child’s mother for 12 months, including 3 months following the child’s birth.
· Provisions on non-parent guardianship have been modified. Step-parents and a parent’s cohabiting partner will be able to apply to become a child’s guardian if s/he has shared caring responsibilities for the child for over 2 years. However, this guardianship will generally be limited to day-to-day decisions so as to safeguard the rights of a parent who is also a guardian to take strategic decisions on issues such as a child’s residence, religion or education.
· Provisions on making parenting orders work have been refined in the child’s interests. If a parent consistently violates a custody or access order, she or he may be required to attend a post-separation parenting programme, give the other parent compensatory time with the child or refund the other parent for expenses incurred.
· The court will have the option to appoint a child’s views expert to ascertain the views of the child in guardianship, custody and access cases.

The Bill now needs to be formally drafted, and the press release says that it's intended to enact the Bill in early 2015.

I also need to correct a previous comment of mine. This Bill isn't dependent on the enactment of the Children's Referendum, so with the removal of the surrogacy provisions, there's nothing to prevent the Bill proceeding through the Oireachtas in the usual manner.

Vojera · 26-09-2014 10:05am

Thanks NuMarvel, a really informative post.

I'm particularly happy to see that anonymous donation will be removed. I know not everyone will agree with me (my own partner doesn't!), but after seeing the difficulties my adopted friends have gone through in having no legal rights to find out about their genetic parents, I'm delighted that those details will be there for donor-conceived children should they choose to look into them.

NuMarvel · 15-12-2014 10:07pm

There's an article in yesterday's Business Post (paywalled, so no links) that has sources saying that it may not be possible to have this bill enacted before the marriage referendum and that "it will be sufficient for the children's bill to be published, rather than enacted".

The article is vague around the timeframes for the referendum itself, with the Post reporting some sources as saying the Government want to hold it early in the new year (before the end of March) and other sources "warned it may not take place until April or May" (which was the Taoiseach's original timeframe).

It's possible that the sources saying the bill won't be enacted before the referendum are the same ones saying we'll have the referendum early, but either way, it looks like we'll be waiting a while for the bill to be finalised. And it's a definite possibility it won't be passed before the referendum.

Daith · 15-12-2014 10:31pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

There's an article in yesterday's Business Post (paywalled, so no links) that has sources saying that it may not be possible to have this bill enacted before the marriage referendum and that "it will be sufficient for the children's bill to be published, rather than enacted".

The article is vague around the timeframes for the referendum itself, with the Post reporting some sources as saying the Government want to hold it early in the new year (before the end of March) and other sources "warned it may not take place until April or May" (which was the Taoiseach's original timeframe).

It's possible that the sources saying the bill won't be enacted before the referendum are the same ones saying we'll have the referendum early, but either way, it looks like we'll be waiting a while for the bill to be finalised. And it's a definite possibility it won't be passed before the referendum.

This is disappointing. It needs to be passed before the referendum. It's more important than the referendum.

Any update with proposed changes in legislation - paretns & children?

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