Replacent under warranty.

zom · 28-07-2015 11:21am #1

Bought €200 electronic device at big retailer here in Ireland. It got broken (second time) and this time can't be repair. They offer me replacement with different type as they don't stock it any more. Can I request refund instead?

slimjimmc · 28-07-2015 11:38am

It would depend on what you mean by "it got broken". Is it a fault with the device or did something happen to it to damage it?

zom · 28-07-2015 11:52am

They agree it is broken - that's clear.
The point is that instead of money back they want give me different type device. And I would rather get money and shop somewhere else as I am not happy with them.

I already checked http://www.consumerhelp.ie/ but there is not clear explain about it. They say:

"If it is impossible to repair the item, or if it is more convenient than repairing it, then the seller may replace it for you."

"If you opt for a replacement, it should be the same as the item you bought, or of similar quality and price"

What it I don't like replacement??

slimjimmc · 28-07-2015 12:51pm

Why it is broken is paramount. If the device has some inherent fault then you have consumer rights but if it got damaged due to something else then you have no rights.
Eg. if you bought a sat nav and the screen dies then you are entitled to have it sorted, but if you dropped it and broke the screen then you have no rights.

Taking the sat nav example again. If the screen failed on its own previously, was repaired but failed again then you would be entitled to refuse another repair and to get your money back. The amount of the refund may be reduced based on the amount of time you've had it, e.g. don't expect a full refund for a 5 year old sat nav.

If the screen was broken by dropping then you have no rights. The retailer may offer a replacement as a goodwill gesture but that's not an your entitlement.

zom · 28-07-2015 2:01pm

1. There is no issue with agreeing it was manufacturer fault and I am fully entitled to repair / replacement / refund.

2. The item can't be repaired.

3. They don't stock this product anymore - but they offered replacement with different (similar) type.

4. Can I reject replacement and ask for refund instead? Lets say I liked only specific product, I don't like other types?

slimjimmc · 28-07-2015 2:12pm

Thanks for clarifying it was a manufacturing fault.
Yes, you can reject the replacement and ask for a refund but as mentioned above you may not get a full refund of what you originally paid.
If you and the retailer can't agree a settlement then you have the option of taking them to the Small Claims Court.

zom · 28-07-2015 3:30pm

Sorry for bothering you more - is 6 month period time a limit for getting full refund? I cant find it stated clearly anywhere?

As I said fault happened twice - first time (during mentioned 6 months) it was repaired.
Now it is more than 6 months but still below 1 year and they offered replacement.
Does it mean it is worth less (if I ask for refund) and that's the reason they are not repairing it? They expect me to be sorted with smaller money?

slimjimmc · 28-07-2015 5:27pm

In the first 6 months any defect is assumed to be there at the time of purchase (unless the seller can prove otherwise), which strengthens any claim for a full refund. After 6 months the onus falls on the consumer to prove the fault was there at the time of purchase but that doesn't mean you can't get a full refund after that.

It's possible the cost of repair is disproportionately expensive compared to a refund and if it is then they're entitled to refuse the repair. (SI 11/2003 Sect 7)

As you have owned the device for 6-12 months I would assume you've had use of it for a significant amount of that time despite the defect, in which case I would consider a full refund as unreasonable.
You are free to push for a full refund and but it might be easier to get the shop to agree to a refund to the value of the equivalent replacement.

This link gives a good summary of your rights under UK law which is very very similar to Irish law.
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/consumer-rights-refunds-exchange

zom · 28-07-2015 9:32pm

Thanks slimjimmc for all that explanation. One last question - since when 6month period legislation started? I remember returns 2-3 years ago and there was no 6months mentioned at all. I also remember few months back when I realised amazon UK having different return policy - but I thought it is just amazon itself - seems like it's all EU??

slimjimmc · 28-07-2015 10:47pm

zom wrote: »

Thanks slimjimmc for all that explanation. One last question - since when 6month period legislation started? I remember returns 2-3 years ago and there was no 6months mentioned at all. I also remember few months back when I realised amazon UK having different return policy - but I thought it is just amazon itself - seems like it's all EU??

It's in Sect 8 of SI 11/2003 which I linked above, so it came into force here in 22-Jan-2003. Other EU countries may have different dates.

You won't see it any stated in a returns policy because, just like most other parts of law, there's no requirement for it to be stated. For the most part it's insignificant and only becomes relevant if a seller disputes that a defect was present at the time of sale.

Don't confuse return policies with statutory rights. All retailers in the EU are required to abide by minimum legal requirements but retailers are free to offer more liberal returns polices than required by law. e.g. some retailers such as Argos will allow change-of-mind returns for in-store purchases even though they are not legally obliged to do so.

zom · 01-08-2015 8:33pm

UPDATE - I had rant today in the shop - was rejected refund, they asked me to go over floor and spend my €200 there. I didn't agree and will try go to Small Case Court but I appreciate any advice it it is worth or not. In worst case scenario I will come back and buy best priced €200 item to try to sell it on ebay/adverts/donedeal to get any money back.

I was also said that since 2014 law was changed and customer is no longer entitled for refund in such case. I would love to have it confirmed (maybe by Small Case Court) to be aware for the future shopping.

wmpdd3 · 02-08-2015 1:38am

I am not aware of any 2014 law referring to that.

I say try the SCC, for the €25 fee, its well worth it.

Time to get your case sorted.

I take it you still have the unit? Take loads of photos of it.

Find out the registered Irish address of the company. can get that on www.cro.ie

Write out a time line.

When bought
When was the 1st fault
When did you report it
What was the resolution
2nd fault
resolution offered
(by the way, I would describe being told to pick something out as 'offered store credit')

You can apply for the SCC online.

Best case, they don't bother showing up and its goes in your favour.

Their only possible defences are that 'this is not a manufacturing fault'
'you have no proof of purchase'
(the fact they dealt with you means they accept you bought it there)
'they go out of business'

mdebets · 02-08-2015 3:05pm

slimjimmc wrote: »

Yes, you can reject the replacement and ask for a refund.
[...]
In the first 6 months any defect is assumed to be there at the time of purchase (unless the seller can prove otherwise), which strengthens any claim for a full refund. After 6 months the onus falls on the consumer to prove the fault was there at the time of purchase but that doesn't mean you can't get a full refund after that.

slimjimmc could you please point me to where you find these two points in irish law ( automatic refund after second fault and 6 month period after which the requirement of proof switches from the seller to the buyer; I know of such provisions in other EU countries, but not in Ireland).

As I understand the situation in Ireland is that as long as the seller can't prove that the buyer damaged the goods, he can offer one of the three remedies (repair, replacement, refund). It's then up to the buyer to accept it or not. If he doesn't, he has to go to the SCC, but will most likely loose, if there aren't any good reason, to reject the offer of the shop. For all this, there is no time limit in Ireland, just the statue of limitations, which kicks in after 6 years.
If the shop offers you either a repair or refund, and the same problem happens again, he can only choose from the other 2 remaining remedies.
The OP has therefore no rights, to refuse the replacement (unless the new model is of lower quality / has less functions than the original model) and demand a refund.
If a refund is given, the shop can reduce the payment based on the time the buyer had use of the good (so if a user had the device for 1 year and a normal lifetime of the device were 6 years, he would only get 83% of the price back).

MarkAnthony · 02-08-2015 5:43pm

mdebets wrote: »

slimjimmc could you please point me to where you find these two points in irish law ( automatic refund after second fault and 6 month period after which the requirement of proof switches from the seller to the buyer; I know of such provisions in other EU countries, but not in Ireland).

As I understand the situation in Ireland is that as long as the seller can't prove that the buyer damaged the goods, he can offer one of the three remedies (repair, replacement, refund). It's then up to the buyer to accept it or not. If he doesn't, he has to go to the SCC, but will most likely loose, if there aren't any good reason, to reject the offer of the shop. For all this, there is no time limit in Ireland, just the statue of limitations, which kicks in after 6 years.
If the shop offers you either a repair or refund, and the same problem happens again, he can only choose from the other 2 remaining remedies.
The OP has therefore no rights, to refuse the replacement (unless the new model is of lower quality / has less functions than the original model) and demand a refund.
If a refund is given, the shop can reduce the payment based on the time the buyer had use of the good (so if a user had the device for 1 year and a normal lifetime of the device were 6 years, he would only get 83% of the price back).

There's a fair few misunderstandings in the above post. Your primary one is that we, like England and Wales (and Malta? IIRC) are common law countries not everything is codified.

In this instance the 6 month one is in the SI already cited in this thread - it's short, have a read. The repair issue is dealt with under the Sale of Goods Acts but doesn't actually say an item must be replaced/refunded just that a repair must be permanent. This is open to different interpretations making any statement to the effect of predicting the outcome of the Small Claims Procedure would need to be backed up with statistics which I suspect no one has.

Finally the award of damages is similarly anecdotal, and actually works out more like 20% per year but again it largely depends on the person hearing the case. An example is an English case involving a printer and awarded damages to the value of the product after 5 years as it was proved the printer had been used very few times.

zom · 03-08-2015 12:18am

mdebets wrote: »

The OP has therefore no rights, to refuse the replacement (unless the new model is of lower quality / has less functions than the original model) and demand a refund.

So this is crucial point of the claim I suppose?
In my case the broken item was quite extraordinary and they don't have anything similar in that range of price. It is kind of like offering Android phone to someone with broken Iphone.
I was also offered credit note instead of refund which I rejected as I don't want to deal with them anymore (hopefully).

weisses · 03-08-2015 9:08am

zom wrote: »

So this is crucial point of the claim I suppose?
In my case the broken item was quite extraordinary and they don't have anything similar in that range of price. It is kind of like offering Android phone to someone with broken Iphone.
I was also offered credit note instead of refund which I rejected as I don't want to deal with them anymore (hopefully).

Could you post the precise model of the damaged item and the model of the one they offered to replace it with ?

Replacent under warranty.

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